Some shipwreck their faith

[OzSpen]

There are challenging verses in 1 Tim 1:18-20 (NIV) which state:

18 Timothy, my son, I am giving you this command in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by recalling them you may fight the battle well, 19 holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck with regard to the faith. 20 Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.​

Here we have an example of Hymenaeus and Alexander who have rejected 'holding on to faith a good conscience' and 'have suffered shipwreck with regard to the faith'. So it is possible for those who have faith to suffer shipwreck of that faith. 'Suffered' means 'thrusting away' or 'having thrust away'.

'When they thrust aside their conscience which tried to hold them to the prophecies they had learned from faithful teachers they made shipwreck of their very faith. One cannot keep his faith while he plays fast and loose with the prophecies (Word). He will have to silence his conscience, make it cease crying out against such practice, and then his faith is wrecked whether he admits it or not' (Lenski 1937:532).

Sadly, in the 1970s I was in theological college with two evangelical students who loved the Lord and were serving him fervently. Today they are no longer serving the Lord but have shipwrecked their faith. They have committed apostasy (see also Heb 6:4-6 NIV).

Biblically, we are given this warning in 1 Timothy 1 (NIV) (affirmed in Hebrews 6 NIV) that it is possible to shipwreck or fall away from the faith. These warnings would be pointless if such a wrecking or falling away were not possible.

In Christ,
Oz​

 

[Seabass]

There are challenging verses in 1 Tim 1:18-20 (NIV) which state:

18 Timothy, my son, I am giving you this command in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by recalling them you may fight the battle well, 19 holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck with regard to the faith. 20 Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.​

Here we have an example of Hymenaeus and Alexander who have rejected 'holding on to faith a good conscience' and 'have suffered shipwreck with regard to the faith'. So it is possible for those who have faith to suffer shipwreck of that faith. 'Suffered' means 'thrusting away' or 'having thrust away'.

'When they thrust aside their conscience which tried to hold them to the prophecies they had learned from faithful teachers they made shipwreck of their very faith. One cannot keep his faith while he plays fast and loose with the prophecies (Word). He will have to silence his conscience, make it cease crying out against such practice, and then his faith is wrecked whether he admits it or not' (Lenski 1937:532).

Sadly, in the 1970s I was in theological college with two evangelical students who loved the Lord and were serving him fervently. Today they are no longer serving the Lord but have shipwrecked their faith. They have committed apostasy (see also Heb 6:4-6 NIV).

Biblically, we are given this warning in 1 Timothy 1 (NIV) (affirmed in Hebrews 6 NIV) that it is possible to shipwreck or fall away from the faith. These warnings would be pointless if such a wrecking or falling away were not possible.

In Christ,
Oz​

Some may try to argue that Hymenaeus and Alexander were "never really saved to begin with" but this excuse often offered up by the proponents of eternal security does not hold up to simple logic. One cannot shipwreck or cast away something he never had. They must have been in the faith in order to shipwreck it or cast it away. One cannot fall away if he has always been fallen for he has nowhere to fall to being already fallen. Gal 5:4 ye are fallen (past tense) from grace. How can one fall from grace if he was never in grace? How can one fall from a tree unless he first gets up in the tree?

 

[jasonc]

getting the popcorn ready, anudder osas versus aosas thread.

 

[electricaluser]

sometimes one needs to step away from debating and be mastered by the bible. one can master the bible and live like a hellion but never is that possible if the bible has mastered you.

Ok, well while I was away I felt I needed to explain my last post to you. If being a Christian is having a relationship with God then one could say that one who does not have a relationship with God is dead in their sins. A relationship should be about giving someone what they need, we can only give someone what they need when we learn what they need. So a relationship should be based around learning, without learning one can not have a relationship. So when I said "Don't ever lose your desire to learn or you will lose your salvation." Then what I am saying is that salvation is based on having a learning relationship with God.

 

[jasonc]

Ok, well while I was away I felt I needed to explain my last post to you. If being a Christian is having a relationship with God then one could say that one who does not have a relationship with God is dead in their sins. A relationship should be about giving someone what they need, we can only give someone what they need when we learn what they need. So a relationship should be based around learning, without learning one can not have a relationship. So when I said "Don't ever lose your desire to learn or you will lose your salvation." Then what I am saying is that salvation is based on having a learning relationship with God.

Learning about God isn't restricted to just reading the bible.

 

[OzSpen]

Some may try to argue that Hymenaeus and Alexander were "never really saved to begin with" but this excuse often offered up by the proponents of eternal security does not hold up to simple logic. One cannot shipwreck or cast away something he never had. They must have been in the faith in order to shipwreck it or cast it away. One cannot fall away if he has always been fallen for he has nowhere to fall to being already fallen. Gal 5:4 ye are fallen (past tense) from grace. How can one fall from grace if he was never in grace? How can one fall from a tree unless he first gets up in the tree?

 

[NBTrollin]

Don't ever lose your desire to learn or you will lose your salvation.

Isn't knowledge the opposite of faith, and isn't salvation based on faith somewhat?

 

[OzSpen]

The death of ones faith only leads to despair.

​

That's what former evangelist and apostate, Charles Templeton, found. See also, 'Pathetic preacher dies in unbelief'.

 

[Seabass]

Jn 10:28 "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

Is OSAS - eternal security - perseverance of the Saints (pick your preference) in this verse or is it assumed into the verse? If it is in the verse, where in the verse is it?

 

[jasonc]

Right now God tells me that trying can only lead to wanting to be good or evil, so he says to avoid that path.

I'm going to trust the voice in my head jasonc.

ok. so then you wont change. its not us doing that. im mean you once complained about love lost. so don't bother loving is better then loving and failing and learning from that by saying well this is why It went bad? I mean yes we have commands to follow and so forth that helps us avoid the big mistakes(sin) but im talking about more then just that. reaching the lost, teaching kids , making disciples which if we do what we are called to do, we will learn to be like jesus as all that takes prayer and yielding to him so that the fruit of the spirit of God came come out and by doing so we see God in action. its hard to that but it is simple.

 

[smaller]

Let's face the fact that quite a lot of "good thinking" believers leave christian sectarianism today, and rightfully so. That doesn't mean they quit on God in Christ. Anyone who has had a genuine experience with God in Christ KNOWS that He never leaves us or forsakes us. That doesn't mean that any particular believer has to continue in christian sectarianism in all of it's ill intentions to one another. In this way sectarianism is it's own worst enemy.

Doubt is a real enemy of faith. It can cause a person to press harder, or it can cause them to give up, because they can't live in condemnation.

There is no life in doubt and condemnation. No one in their right mind will continue on that path for long.

Romans 14:23
And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

I would not deem either doubt or such damning as permanent in nature, if they have called upon Jesus to save them, then SAVE He will, regardless of their doubt in Jesus abilities to save. The abilities of salvation are not in our hands, but in The Saviors.

Really, for eating something, anything, not in faith? No, it was the DOUBT that is the problem. It is just not good to "sin" against one's own conscience. If somebody thinks that the scriptures say not to eat pork, who am I to say otherwise? It's their own conscience that they have to live with and they should not have to take on that doubt within, if that's what they really think. To spread that doubt however is another story altogether. Doubt is the "root" of christian sectarianism.

When we see ourselves honestly there is always cause to doubt. And we seem to want to find and seek such ways for some odd reasons.

If I were already perfect, which no doubt I am not, I would have no cause to look unto His Perfection, for my reflections. I already know that I can not conjure up any of that on or of my own.

When Jesus said this:

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

The only path into that is to have God Himself within. And this is a path only faith can take. It is by faith that we "feel" our way through these matters, and find our Comforter.

It occurred to me over a couple of decades ago, that if I am honest with myself, that I am not "yet" Perfect, then I should observe the scriptures as to "why." And this led to some wonderful and interesting discoveries that are not commonly found by those who think they already are perfect.

I have no faith in personal delusions of perfection nor do I believe it is possible, on our own, to make ourselves that way. I do however have faith that God in Christ IS in my temple, and can wreak havoc on my imperfections and those of all believers, on a moments notice, in the twinkling of His Eye. To me, this is the christian hope for a new body. 1 Cor. 15:50-55. I have zero expectations for the current body of death and subjectivity. My faith is not for that "thing" to be any better than what it really is. A temporal planting in the natural environment.

Paul was very clear about the ways of God. It is first, the natural, THEN the spiritual. The later must come after the first, in the ways of God. Even Jesus took this same path when His physical natural body died. 1 Cor. 15:46

What we have currently are faith sprouts springing from the ground of darkness. God Himself has commanded that LIGHT shine from the darkness. And this DOES happen, daily.

2 Corinthians 4:6
For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

The darkness will never comprehend this matter, and was never meant to.

John 1:5
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

 

[jasonc]

jasonc, lately I've been getting this feeling that I just can't shake, that I am the lost soul of Adam and I have to fix the problem I started 6000 years ago.

Uhm,no.that only could God have fixed.and he has.the blood

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

There are challenging verses in 1 Tim 1:18-20 (NIV) which state:

18 Timothy, my son, I am giving you this command in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by recalling them you may fight the battle well, 19 holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck with regard to the faith. 20 Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.​

Here we have an example of Hymenaeus and Alexander who have rejected 'holding on to faith a good conscience' and 'have suffered shipwreck with regard to the faith'. So it is possible for those who have faith to suffer shipwreck of that faith. 'Suffered' means 'thrusting away' or 'having thrust away'.

'When they thrust aside their conscience which tried to hold them to the prophecies they had learned from faithful teachers they made shipwreck of their very faith. One cannot keep his faith while he plays fast and loose with the prophecies (Word). He will have to silence his conscience, make it cease crying out against such practice, and then his faith is wrecked whether he admits it or not' (Lenski 1937:532).

Sadly, in the 1970s I was in theological college with two evangelical students who loved the Lord and were serving him fervently. Today they are no longer serving the Lord but have shipwrecked their faith. They have committed apostasy (see also Heb 6:4-6 NIV).

Biblically, we are given this warning in 1 Timothy 1 (NIV) (affirmed in Hebrews 6 NIV) that it is possible to shipwreck or fall away from the faith. These warnings would be pointless if such a wrecking or falling away were not possible.

In Christ,
Oz​

Good afternoon Ozspen, nice post.
However, Hymenaeus and Alexander were handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.
First off, it should be noted that Paul was teaching Timothy church authority and church discipline.
This whole of Chapter One talks about warnings of false teachers of the Law.
One should keep this in context.

Chapter two continues and mentions Hymenaeus again in verse 17 and then Paul says in verse 19,
"The Lord knows who are his".

Back to 1 Timothy 20: We see in Titus 3:10 how to deal with false doctrine and heresy through church discipline.
And in James 2:7, one who blasphemes is one who is against the church.

How can one say that Hymenaeus and Alexander were saved?
Scripture does not say they were and does not say they were not.
But the proper use of Scripture tells us they were not.

I don't know if any of you go to church but I do, for 30 years now.
And every church I've been in there are people taking Holy Communion that have no personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
The truth is, they have a saving faith staring them in the face but they do not grab hold of it in their hearts and allow the Holy Spirit to do a work in their lives.

 

[Seabass]

Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; (KJV)
Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander (NASB)
among them Hymenae'us and Alexander, (RSV)

Hymenaeus and Alexander was AMONG THEM that violated their own conscience shipwrecking/cast away their own faith. They could not shipwreck their own faith if they never had faith.

Paul said he delivered Hymenaeus and Alexander unto Satan. The idea they were delivered unto Satan means other Christians were to withdraw fellowship from these two. Hymenaeus and Alexander were Christians from whom other Christians were to practice church discipline against by withdrawing themselves/fellowship from these two men....

1 Cor 5:5 "To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."

Same phrase used in 1 Cor 5:5 that was said of Hymenaeus and Alexander.

The "deliver such unto Satan" of 1 Cor 5:5 is equivalent to "not to company with" 1 Cor 5:9 which is equivalent to " Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person." 1 Cor 5:13.

To deliver one unto Satan is where Christians "from among yourselves" put away the wicked persons as Hymenaeus and Alexander. The putting away of erring Christian is to correct the erring (James 5:19;20) but also protect the Christian fro the false teaching of the erring ones.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; (KJV)
Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander (NASB)
among them Hymenae'us and Alexander, (RSV)

Hymenaeus and Alexander was AMONG THEM that violated their own conscience shipwrecking/cast away their own faith. They could not shipwreck their own faith if they never had faith.

Paul said he delivered Hymenaeus and Alexander unto Satan. The idea they were delivered unto Satan means other Christians were to withdraw fellowship from these two. Hymenaeus and Alexander were Christians from whom other Christians were to practice church discipline against by withdrawing themselves/fellowship from these two men....

1 Cor 5:5 "To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."

Same phrase used in 1 Cor 5:5 that was said of Hymenaeus and Alexander.

The "deliver such unto Satan" of 1 Cor 5:5 is equivalent to "not to company with" 1 Cor 5:9 which is equivalent to " Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person." 1 Cor 5:13.

To deliver one unto Satan is where Christians "from among yourselves" put away the wicked persons as Hymenaeus and Alexander. The putting away of erring Christian is to correct the erring (James 5:19;20) but also protect the Christian fro the false teaching of the erring ones.

Hi Seabass, we have yet to speak to each other, until now.
Your use of James 5:19-20 is misunderstood.
James is saying that these people are estranged from the truth and are in need of conversion.
And in our personal work of serving our Lord Jesus, we should act as soul-winners and save them from spiritual death.

James also says in Chapter 2 that some have faith, but so do the demons.
That is not saving faith.
James is saying these people are among us and we need to separate ourselves from them.

 

[Seabass]

Hi Seabass, we have yet to speak to each other, until now.
Your use of James 5:19-20 is misunderstood.
James is saying that these people are estranged from the truth and are in need of conversion.
And in our personal work of serving our Lord Jesus, we should act as soul-winners and save them from spiritual death.

James also says in Chapter 2 that some have faith, but so do the demons.
That is not saving faith.
James is saying these people are among us and we need to separate ourselves from them.

Hi

James 5:19,20 "Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins."

James is speaking about "brethren" >Christians that err from the truth as Hymenaeus and Alexander. One cannot err from the truth if he never had the truth to go away from.

Hymenaeus and Alexander were "brethren" who erred from the truth and Paul tells them to put these two brethren away from among yourselves (deliver unto Satan) in hopes this discipline would bring these to men back to the truth, that is, to 'convert these two sinners from the error of thier way"

So Hymenaeus and Alexander were two Christians that erred from the truth and other Christians were to withdraw from them with hope they may be converted back from the error of their way.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Hi

James 5:19,20 "Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins."

James is speaking about "brethren" >Christians that err from the truth as Hymenaeus and Alexander. One cannot err from the truth if he never had the truth to go away from.

Hymenaeus and Alexander were "brethren" who erred from the truth and Paul tells them to put these two brethren away from among yourselves (deliver unto Satan) in hopes this discipline would bring these to men back to the truth, that is, to 'convert these two sinners from the error of thier way"

So Hymenaeus and Alexander were two Christians that erred from the truth and other Christians were to withdraw from them with hope they may be converted back from the error of their way.

That's all Seabass.
No need for you and I to go on.

 

[jasonc]

Uhm,no.that only could God have fixed.and he has.the blood

jasonc, lately I've been getting this feeling that I just can't shake, that I am the lost soul of Adam and I have to fix the problem I started 6000 years ago.

john 3:16,
in eccl 9:5 it says that the dead , know not, feel not
it says in luke 16 that the dead stay in hades and are judged awaiting the final sentence. see revelation 20 for that.

 

[Brother Mike]

Hi Seabass, we have yet to speak to each other, until now.
Your use of James 5:19-20 is misunderstood.
James is saying that these people are estranged from the truth and are in need of conversion.
And in our personal work of serving our Lord Jesus, we should act as soul-winners and save them from spiritual death.

James also says in Chapter 2 that some have faith, but so do the demons.
That is not saving faith.
James is saying these people are among us and we need to separate ourselves from them.

Hymenaeus and Alexander were believers.
Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.
(1Ti 1:19-20)
A unsaved person does not have faith or good conscience to shipwrek, and we don't turn unbelievers over to Satan, because they already are serving Satan and we don't want them destroyed, but saved.

And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
(2Ti 2:17-18)

unbelievers also don't go around teaching on the Resurrection.

Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
(Jas 5:19-20)

Once again, these are saved folks, we don't call the unsaved Brethren, and the unsaved don't error from the truth, we have to save them, and get the truth to them first before they can error from it.

Just thought I would help out, as amazing as I am.

Mike.

 

[Obadiah]

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