Bible Study Sons Of God, Giants & The New World Order - Pt 1

[Edward]

Not at all...
But I understand from where the quotes came from. The principles that Peter and Jude were stating are more important... moreso than how they made them. Even Jesus quoted the Talmud tale of Enoch. It was popular culture at the time.
The Jews considered the Theatre to be quite sinful...so much so they had an expression about how you shouldn't allow even your shadow to fall on the building. The original word hypocrite was actually a reference to an actor (thespian)...instead of the meaning it has become today.

But books and stories were common forms of entertainment at the local Synagogue. Jesus, Peter, and Jude simply referenced the pop culture...just like any pastor today might.

How can you say that? (2 Timothy 3:16-17)
You can't just glass over and trivialize something as not important, and say well that was a quote from some fiction book back then...

For one thing, it is important to the thread. That's what we're talking about...how they made them. And I find it hard to swallow that Jesus would waste the bookspace on something that was wrong (2 Timothy...)

 

[JohnDB]

How can you say that? (2 Timothy 3:16-17)
You can't just glass over and trivialize something as not important, and say well that was a quote from some fiction book back then...

For one thing, it is important to the thread. That's what we're talking about...how they made them. And I find it hard to swallow that Jesus would waste the bookspace on something that was wrong (2 Timothy...)

Well,
When after consulting with a rabbi acquaintance of mine (Rabbi Michael Schneider an expert on levitical calendar) and he tells me about the Talmuds...yes plural groups.
And I have read several groups which contain the very stories that Jude and Peter quoted...
A reasonable and prudent person would come to the same conclusion.

 

[brujaq]

Mt 22:29-30 has Jesus relaying a concept only found in Enoch. This also happens to be your foundational verse on the topic, which puts the Sethite conclusion in jeopardy.

NT references Enoch at least 40+ times, and ECF's treated it just like the rest of Scripture. Here's some links with interesting info many don't seem to be aware of:

http://torahdrivenlife.com/articles/enoch/defending-the-book-of-enoch/

http://nazarenespace.com/m/blogpost?id=2182335:BlogPost:244700

450' giants ?

Mt 22:29-30 has Jesus relaying a concept only found in Enoch. This also happens to be your foundational verse on the topic, which puts the Sethite conclusion in jeopardy.

NT references Enoch at least 40+ times, and ECF's treated it just like the rest of Scripture. Here's some links with interesting info many don't seem to be aware of:

http://torahdrivenlife.com/articles/enoch/defending-the-book-of-enoch/

http://nazarenespace.com/m/blogpost?id=2182335:BlogPost:244700

Mt 22:29-30 Jesus is saying what I and others are saying ..

 

[brujaq]

I looked at some quotes in the Talmud and I wouldn't even begin to post some of that stuff ..

 

[Edward]

Well,
When after consulting with a rabbi acquaintance of mine (Rabbi Michael Schneider an expert on levitical calendar) and he tells me about the Talmuds...yes plural groups.
And I have read several groups which contain the very stories that Jude and Peter quoted...
A reasonable and prudent person would come to the same conclusion.

Really?! Very nice, care to share which book and passage? I have a couple books and the others are all easily available to read inline. I have Jubilees and Enoch, and have read in Thomas, Jasher, and maybe more.

Maybe we could see if I'm as prudent as you and come to the same conclusion?! I'll google me up a copy of whichever book you refer to...

 

[Razeontherock]

450' giants ?

Mt 22:29-30 Jesus is saying what I and others are saying ..

Hyper literalism isn't really the best way to understand a point. The actual language there could mean 15 feet, or 5; we just don't know. You are familiar with translation difficulties? Also copy errors. That could well have originated in a language older than what we call ancient Hebrew today. Plenty of chances for a point here and there to get skewed, which is also a good reason not to elevate it to the point of Scripture.

Enoch is still the source of Mt 22:29, which shoots your theory in the foot. Sorry 'bout that.

 

[brujaq]

Hyper literalism isn't really the best way to understand a point. The actual language there could mean 15 feet, or 5; we just don't know. You are familiar with translation difficulties? Also copy errors. That could well have originated in a language older than what we call ancient Hebrew today. Plenty of chances for a point here and there to get skewed, which is also a good reason not to elevate it to the point of Scripture.

Enoch is still the source of Mt 22:29, which shoots your theory in the foot. Sorry 'bout that.

I thought that had something to do with explaining Levirate law at death .. Deuteronomy 25:5-10

 

[Razeontherock]

I say if you're gonna quote any of the Talmud or Enoch, you better have a very good understanding of the Bible first .. There's a lot of godless looking quotes in the Talmud .

Absolutely! Priorities matter. Gospel of John first. Then the rest of the NT. Then the OT, as God leads, resulting in a rock solid theology that has all Scripture lining up, supporting itself. And of course none of that is any good without a personal relationship with Jesus, leading of the Holy Spirit, or similar verbiage of choice.

Only then does it even begin to make any sense to consider apocrypha. IMHO, ymmv, etc. Also notice that nothing under discussion here is doctrine, just interesting and perhaps Faith building. If not? Avoid at all costs!

 

[JohnDB]

Really?! Very nice, care to share which book and passage? I have a couple books and the others are all easily available to read inline. I have Jubilees and Enoch, and have read in Thomas, Jasher, and maybe more.

Maybe we could see if I'm as prudent as you and come to the same conclusion?! I'll google me up a copy of whichever book you refer to...

OK you are referring to pseudopigrapha and a bunch of other groups of stuff.
I went to a brick and mortar bookstore that contained a Jewish section (close to the synagogue) and bought several Talmud collections years ago.
Maybe you could look on Amazon and find something...I haven't looked. I have hard copies.

 

[Razeontherock]

References from said hard copies are no doubt available online.

 

[brujaq]

Absolutely! Priorities matter. Gospel of John first. Then the rest of the NT. Then the OT, as God leads, resulting in a rock solid theology that has all Scripture lining up, supporting itself. And of course none of that is any good without a personal relationship with Jesus, leading of the Holy Spirit, or similar verbiage of choice.

Only then does it even begin to make any sense to consider apocrypha. IMHO, ymmv, etc. Also notice that nothing under discussion here is doctrine, just interesting and perhaps Faith building. If not? Avoid at all costs!

The problem is you mix ice cream with ice cream you get ice cream, you mix ice cream with crap you get crap .. 450' giants are crap just like fallen angels marrying with flesh and blood women are crap .. Then you have to figure what else is crap ..
Paul said if he or an angel from Heaven come teaching a different gospel from what we taught you to do what ? Galatians 1:8-9 ..
Do you believe fallen angels married flesh and blood women and produced offspring ?

 

[JohnDB]

There.... you're right...I got one of mine online now.... problem is that it doesn't read online too well except for the cover.

 

[Razeontherock]

The problem is you mix ice cream with ice cream you get ice cream, you mix ice cream with crap you get crap .. 450' giants are crap just like fallen angels marrying with flesh and blood women are crap .. Then you have to figure what else is crap ..
Paul said if he or an angel from Heaven come teaching a different gospel from what we taught you to do what ? Galatians 1:8-9 ..
Do you believe fallen angels married flesh and blood women and produced offspring ?

Your premise is off. The Gospel does not get defiled when it comes into contact with evil; evil is purified by the Gospel! This is what separates Christianity from every other religion.

An entire section of Enoch is only designed to be read via use of what we might today call a "secret decoder ring;" trying to make sense out of that part otherwise doesn't mean every utterance throughout the rest of the work is of the devil.

450' giants does not really mean anything other than that literal understanding cannot be what was intended. There are lots of ways that can happen, and I've listed a few.

We cannot tell from Scripture one way or another on this point in Gen 6, that's what makes it controversial. I have no opinion, because there's not enough to base an opinion on, which I've said repeatedly in this thread.

What matters here is what Jesus said about the days of Noah. That directly ties into this thread, as well as medical, scientific, and legal developments in our time.

 

[Razeontherock]

View attachment 5773
There.... you're right...I got one of mine online now.... problem is that it doesn't read online too well except for the cover.

Yeah, that is a LOT of material to make available; likely with little motivation to do so. Rabbi's tend to be generous with their understanding of specific points in discussion, but stingy about non-Rabbis studying it. Or so I've found. And there may be good reason for that? It's not exactly a quick, light read, lol

 

[JohnDB]

Here is a link to The Assumption of Moses.

You can download and read it for yourself if you like

 

[brujaq]

Your premise is off. The Gospel does not get defiled when it comes into contact with evil; evil is purified by the Gospel! This is what separates Christianity from every other religion.

An entire section of Enoch is only designed to be read via use of what we might today call a "secret decoder ring;" trying to make sense out of that part otherwise doesn't mean every utterance throughout the rest of the work is of the devil.

450' giants does not really mean anything other than that literal understanding cannot be what was intended. There are lots of ways that can happen, and I've listed a few.

We cannot tell from Scripture one way or another on this point in Gen 6, that's what makes it controversial. I have no opinion, because there's not enough to base an opinion on, which I've said repeatedly in this thread.

What matters here is what Jesus said about the days of Noah. That directly ties into this thread, as well as medical, scientific, and legal developments in our time.

Do you believe fallen angels married flesh and blood women ? yes or no

I've listed plenty too .. Why did Jesus speak in parables and why does God conceal matters that we must search them out ? Why do some staunchly believe Jesus returned in 70 AD while some just as strongly believe Pre, Mid, or Post Trib .. God is not the author of confusion and that's a fact .. But he will let you continue just like the old Earthers confident in their way .. Jesus said as in the days of Noah they, them , (people) so will it be at the coming of the son of man, and will be marrying and given in marriage Matthew 24:37-39 ..

 

[ezrider]

450' giants ?

Sorry, I just can't help myself. Maybe that explains the dimensions listed in Revelation for the temple in New Jerusalem.

 

[Razeontherock]

Do you believe fallen angels married flesh and blood women ? yes or no

I've listed plenty too .. Why did Jesus speak in parables and why does God conceal matters that we must search them out ? Why do some staunchly believe Jesus returned in 70 AD while some just as strongly believe Pre, Mid, or Post Trib .. God is not the author of confusion and that's a fact .. But he will let you continue just like the old Earthers confident in their way .. Jesus said as in the days of Noah they, them , (people) so will it be at the coming of the son of man, and will be marrying and given in marriage Matthew 24:37-39 ..

What a strange thing for Jesus to say! Why describe such an important thing as end times warnings in terms of 'marrying and being given in marriage?' Nothing about that is unique to Noah's time frame, which suggests He was saying it's worth taking a closer look.

Your post here also opens with an oddity, repeatedly demanding a yes or no answer to a question that has no yes or no answer.
The world we live in is not so black and white.

Any theology that fails to account for mystery is inherently flawed, as it deals with topics that are past human understanding. These are where arguments tend to occur. That the Church is not currently killing one another over such things is actually progress, and also a sad commentary on our species.

 

[Razeontherock]

Sorry, I just can't help myself. Maybe that explains the dimensions listed in Revelation for the temple in New Jerusalem.

Wouldn't giants need to be saved by giant Jesus? On a giant Cross? Oh man I'd hate to have to carry THAT one, lol.

I've heard it said that New Jerusalem's dimensions give several cubic acres to everyone who's lived, all throughout history. What a mighty God we serve!

 

[brujaq]

Wouldn't giants need to be saved by giant Jesus? On a giant Cross? Oh man I'd hate to have to carry THAT one, lol.

I've heard it said that New Jerusalem's dimensions give several cubic acres to everyone who's lived, all throughout history. What a mighty God we serve!

Please answer the question in post 256 so I'll know if you're playing me or not