chessman
Member
- Feb 5, 2013
- 4,653
- 337
Wow, that’s one heck of a way to ignore key testimonies in the Bible in order to hold on to your erroneous presupposition about what “descended into the heart of the Earth” means.
So Jesus had already ascended to Heaven and reappeared on Earth when He encountered the Disciples on the road to Emmaus when the disciples still were thinking that Jesus must have been merely a prophet who had died and they must have been wrong in hoping for a bodily resurrection after all. Atrocious teaching once again. Who teaches you this stuff?
Luke’s Gospel Chapter 34:19 (AFTER appearing to Mary but on the same day)
13 And behold, on that same day, two of them were traveling to a village named Emmaus…
And he said to them, “What things?” So they said to him, “The things concerning Jesus the Nazarene, a man who was a prophet, powerful in deed and word before God [notice they didn’t think He was God, merely before God until they saw Him bodily] and all the people, 20 and how our chief priests and rulers handed him over to a sentence of death, and crucified him. 21 But we were hoping that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel. But in addition to all these things, this is the third day since these things took place.
And he said to them, “What things?” So they said to him, “The things concerning Jesus the Nazarene, a man who was a prophet, powerful in deed and word before God [notice they didn’t think He was God, merely before God until they saw Him bodily] and all the people, 20 and how our chief priests and rulers handed him over to a sentence of death, and crucified him. 21 But we were hoping that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel. But in addition to all these things, this is the third day since these things took place.
And He had already ascended (according to you) when He gave the testimony of the Great Commission (which BTW leaves out the part about Him ascending and returning prior to His appearing to them)? I don't think so:
44 And he said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything that is written about me in the law of Moses and the prophets and psalms must be fulfilled.” 45 Then he opened their minds to understand the scriptures, 46 and said to them, “Thus it is written that the Christ would suffer and would rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance and the forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in his name to all the nations
Jesus says: Thus it is written that the Christ would suffer and would rise from the dead on the third day
JLB says: Thus it is written that the Christ would suffer and would rise from the dead [and ascend to Heaven and return back to Earth] on the third day.
That's an unbiblical teaching. Do you have any evidence whatsoever that's the case other than you say that's what you believe?
Jesus (as Paul was in Eph 4, was specifically making the point that it was really/literally was Him, in His third day resurrected body that was appearing to them prior to His ascension:
33 And they got up that same hour and returned to Jerusalem and found the eleven and those with them assembled, 34 saying, “The Lord has really been raised, … 38 And he said to them, “Why are you frightened? And for what reason do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 Look at my hands and my feet, that I am I myself! Touch me and see, because a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see that I have.” 40 And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet. 41 And while they were still disbelieving…
[What changed their minds from disbelief to belief that Jesus was God? His bodily resurrection and His bodily ascension, that’s what!]
The Ascension
50 And he led them out as far as Bethany, and lifting up his hands, he blessed them. 51 And it happened that while he was blessing them, he parted from them and was taken up into heaven. [See Psalm 68] 52 And they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy. 53 And they were continually in the temple courts praising God.
Is Bethany some sort of spiritual metaphor? Was Luke recording Jesus spiritually “lifting up hands” of prayers or some such nonsense? No. Jesus had His body and hands at His ascension (still does in fact) and Paul says that it was Him Also that descended. Therefore, “descending into the heart of the Earth” is a metaphor for being bodily buried Brother! Nothing more, nothing less. Why do you add your thoughts to Paul’s Eph 4 Scripture as if it was Scripture. Your opinions could very well be wrong, you know. Luke’s History proves it is:
Acts 1 picks up Lukes’ Gospel with Him talking to the disciples at Jerusalem and retells the ascension day with more detailed history this time:
he also presented himself alive after he suffered, with many convincing proofs, appearing to them over a period of forty days and speaking the things about the kingdom of God. 4 And while he was with them, he commanded them, “Do not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for what was promised by the Father (Luke:24 but you stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.”)
Acts 1:
9 And after he had said these things, while they were watching, he was taken up, and a cloud received him from their sight. 10 And as they were staring into the sky while he was departing, behold, two men in white clothing stood by them 11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand there looking into the sky? This Jesus who was taken up from you into heaven like this will come back in the same way you saw him departing into heaven!”
It has been Scripturally established that Jesus very, very physically/bodily ascended into the sky with the disciples watching. Yet you say they didn’t see him as He ascended.
Us disagreeing about whether Luke 16’s Rich Man is parabolic language or whether “Sons of God” always means angels in the OT or whether eternal destruction means eternal torment is one thing. But it seems to me that you are in out-right contradiction with Luke by saying that the disciples didn’t see Jesus ascend in physical form.
Now, let’s go back and re-read Paul’s words again:
9 Now “he ascended,” what is it, except that he also descended to the lower regions of the earth?
Good question. What is it except that he physically ascended and HE ALSO physically descended to the lower regions of the Earth? The answer to Paul’s question is given in the next verse:
10 The one who descended himself is also the one who ascended above all the heavens, in order that he might fill all things.
It is right there, plain and simple. If Jesus ascended physically (and He did, via Luke’s accounts, not yours) then it is also He Himself that descended (died) physically via Paul. That’s all the phrase “descended to the lower regions of the Earth” means;That Jesus physically died and was buried.
Again, Paul’s point in Eph 4 was (and is) that Jesus is God and He is the God from the OT that Ps 68 prophesied would “ride on the clouds”. That’s the reason Paul quotes Ps 68 because it clearly says that Yahweh will “ride on the clouds” and He did so as a man very physically resurrected at His ascention.
Paul, says: 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in all for a reason. His reason is that God became incarnate as a man, died as a man, spent three days "in the heart of the Earth" as a man and was ressurected as a man and ascended as a ressurected man and will return as a ressurected man (though He never ceased being God). "46 And Jesus, calling out with a loud voice, said, “Father, into your hands I entrust my spirit!”
And Paul and Luke both are using Jesus’ physical death, burial, resurrection AND physical ascension as the proof that Jesus was God. Why contradict that?
Paul was NOT using "he descended to the heart of the Earth" to prove anything about where Jesus was spiritually located during those three days. But you are by your words and your teaching of what that phrase means and having to make statements that contradict Luke's record of the ascension in the process.
There's all kinds of ways to prove that our spirits/souls do not cease to exist in the intermediate state. We don't need the phrase "in the heart of the Earth" for it, nor do we need The Rich Man to not be a parable.
Last edited:
