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Bible Study Soul Sleep (the unconscious dead)

B

Bob10

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1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

Verse 16 says the dead in Christ will rise first, showing the dead will be raised an instant before the living.

Paul says this to comfort them (verse 18), because they were sorrowful about those who already died (verse 13). When he says Christ will bring those who have died, the important message is that the living and dead believers will be reunited.

Since they were sorrowful about those who had died, this was Paul's best opportunity to tell them their loved ones were happy in the presence of the Lord.

Instead, he says the dead are asleep three times (verses 13-15), then says the dead and living believers will be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air (verses 16-17).
 
Bob10 said:
Instead, he says the dead are asleep three times (verses 13-15), then says the dead and living believers will be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air (verses 16-17).

"Sleep" is a metaphor for the rest which the physical body experiences in the grave. Souls do not sleep, and that is very clear from Luke 16:19-31.

The soul and spirit of a believer go to be with the Lord, while his or her body "sleeps" in the grave: "And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, LORD JESUS, RECEIVE MY SPIRIT. And he kneeled down and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, HE FELL ASLEEP" (Acts 7:59,60).

What do we observe in this incident?
1. Stephen was cruelly and unjustly stoned to DEATH.
2. He asked the Lord Jesus to receive his spirit, which is inseparable from the soul of the believer.
3. He "fell asleep" in that his soul and spirit left his body, therefore it was still -- unmoving in death. That is also the "sleep" of every body in the grave.

But where was his soul, and was it asleep also? Not at all. "Therefore we are always confident, I say, and willing rather to be ABSENT FROM THE BODY, AND TO BE PRESENT WITH THE LORD" (2 Cor. 4:8).

No one sleeps in the presence of the Lord: "...but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it: AND HIS SERVANTS SHALL SERVE HIM" (Rev. 22:3). The saints and the holy angels are presently occupied with one thing only -- worship. They also are witnesses of how we run our race on earth (Heb. 12:1,22-24).
 
sower,

Souls do not sleep, and that is very clear from Luke 16:19-31.

If you are referring to Lazarus and the rich man, the rich man "lift up his eyes" in a resurrection. He saw Abraham and Lazarus already in the Kingdom of God.

The rich man "lift up his EYES... and SEES Abraham. . ."
even as Jesus warned the Pharisees, "You shall SEE Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom, and you yourselves cast out" ( Luke 13:28).

That is the "great gulf" that exists between the rich man and Abraham.
 
Paul said the dead are asleep:

"Behold I shew you a mystery; We shall not all SLEEP, but we shall all be changed."
1 Corinthians 15:51


1Th 4:13 - But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1Th 4:14 - For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.



Jesus said the dead are sleeping:

John 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleeps; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

verse 14 - "then Jesus said to them plainly, Lazarus is dead."


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a soul - psuche - can die: "Let him know, that he which converts the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death......" (James 5:19-20).
 
Here are two verses out of the book of Psalm.

Psalm 94:17
Unless the LORD had been my help, my soul had almost dwelt in silence.

Psalm 115:17
The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

I believe this is talking about the unsaved on earth not praising the Lord at all and those who die unsaved are dwelling in a place of silence being reserved for judgment on the last day meaning that they have no conscience until the Lord Jesus Christ comes back . What do you guys think about this? Remember I just want feedback from you. We should be gentle to one another when we respond to each other because I've seen many post on here with revenge it's really sad.
 
Bob,

I have proven you wrong on the passage in Luke. They are all dead, yet having a conversation. It doesn't get any clearer than that.

The body dies and so a believer is considered "sleeping," but the soul goes to hades, perhaps, where it awaits the resurrection of the body. During this period, the person/soul is conscious.
 
James 1979

We should be gentle to one another when we respond to each other because I've seen many post on here with revenge it's really sad.

I agree. We should discuss topics humanely; it can even get HEATED without getting personal.

it's just nice to talk with people who actually open their Bibles once in a while. People disagreed with what Jesus was saying even while He was on Earth; the same with Paul's teachings. It's just part of the package.
 
free

I don't believe the Bible teaches that the soul is immortal, does it?

Afterall, James says if we convert a sinner from the error of his way, we save a soul from death (James 5:19-20).

----------------------------------

God made man of two ingredients, dust material from ground, and breath of God. That's it.

Body + Breath of God = Living soul

Body - Breath of God(life) = Dead soul
 
I've posted these before and you have not refuted them:

Rev. 6:9-11, "9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also."

Re 20:4, "Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

Luke 16:22-31, "22 'Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. 23 'In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 'And he cried out and said, "Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame." 25 'But Abraham said, "Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. 26 "And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us." 27 'And he said, "Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father's house-- 28 for I have five brothers--in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment." 29 'But Abraham said, "They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them." 30 'But he said, "No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!" 31 'But he said to him, "If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead."'"

A few things about this passage:

1) Lazarus dies and is immediately carried to Abraham's bosom, which is where the rich man sees him.
2) The rich man is in Hades, in torment.
3) "During your life" is contrasted with "but now."
4) In speaking of sending Lazarus to the rich man's brothers, Abraham says they will not even believe if someone rises from the dead to go to them.

It is absolutely clear that all three are dead and carrying on a conversation.

Luke 12:4-5, "4 "I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do. 5 "But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!"

Matt. 10:28, "28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

These two passages prove that the soul is separate from the body and lives on after one dies.
 
free

These two passages prove that the soul is separate from the body and lives on after one dies.

James says if we convert a sinner from the error of his way, we save a soul from death (James 5:19-20, kjv).

a soul [psuche] apparently can experience death.

=============================================

Matt. 10:28, "28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."


What is meant by "not able to kill the soul" ?

Simply, "Fear not (for an instant) them which kill the body, but are NOT able to destroy you [psuche] utterly and finally." (2Cor. 12:15, kjv see margin).

For the disciple, his life is "hid with Christ in God" (Col. 3:3) and although men may kill the body, in the resurrection this life will be given back to the body. (See Col. 3:4).


The Greek word, "psuche" -- translated "soul" in this verse -- has the meaning of "life".

In Matt. 16:25, "psuche" is translated "life": "For whosoever shall save his life [psuche] shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life [psuche] for my sake shall find it."

Obviously if the words "immortal soul" were substituted for "life" in this reference, the result would be absurd.

In the R.S.V. "psuche" is translated "life" in vs. 26: "For what will it profit a man, if he gains the whole world and forfeits his life [psuche]."

The similarity of context suggests that "life" in Matt. 10:28 should be read for "soul".

http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/psuche.html
 
This issue enters peoples' minds when they try to explain what happens between death and the ressurrection.

What is the condition of the soul whilst the body remains in the grave, until the day when the dead will be raised to eternal life, or eternal damnation.
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
 
right, evanman --

I would have started at verse 28 or 27, but your quote is excellent....... almost verbatim of what Daniel says in Dan. 12:2.
 
Bob,

Simply, "Fear not (for an instant) them which kill the body, but are NOT able to destroy you [psuche] utterly and finally." (2Cor. 12:15, kjv see margin).

You must have meant some other verse since 2 Cor. 12:15 has nothing to do with the discussion.

The Greek word, "psuche" -- translated "soul" in this verse -- has the meaning of "life".

I have told you several times now that psuche has several meanings, not just "life." Why do you fail to understand that?

In Matt. 16:25, "psuche" is translated "life": "For whosoever shall save his life [psuche] shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life [psuche] for my sake shall find it."

Obviously if the words "immortal soul" were substituted for "life" in this reference, the result would be absurd.

But if it read "soul" it would be fine. What is your point?

The similarity of context suggests that "life" in Matt. 10:28 should be read for "soul".

No, it doesn't suggest that.

Matt. 10:28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the [life]; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both [life] and body in hell."

Talk about absurd. It doesn't even make sense, especially since you said in another thread:

"Soul" NEVER means something immortal IN man or animal. It simply pertains to the life of all physical creatures.

According to you, if the body is dead, there is no life, no soul. You now have a contradiction in Matt. 10:28 since man is able to "kill the body" but not the soul, whereas God can destroy both. The verse indicates that the death of the body is separate from the death of the soul, they are not the same.
 
(2Cor. 12:15, kjv see margin).

You must have meant some other verse since 2 Cor. 12:15 has nothing to do with the discussion.

I pointed this verse out because the margin gives an alternate wording for the first "you" in that verse, which is "your souls"(margin).


"And I will very gladly spend and be spent for you [all]......."

"And I will very gladly spend and be spent for your souls...."
 
Christ told one of the thieves crucified with Him that he would be in paradise (Luke 23:43).

Since many believe in continued consciousness, they placed the comma before “todayâ€Â.

"Today" was the day Christ made the promise, not the day they would be in paradise.


Jesus emphasized "today" because the thief repented and believed in Jesus that day. The previous day he was lost.

Moses uses the word "today" similarly in Deuteronomy 30:16-18. In verse 16, he commands them "today" to follow the Lord. He was not saying they only had to follow the Lord that day. Just as Moses gave the command that day, Jesus gave the promise that day.


Then Moses says, "But if your heart turns away so that you do not hear, and are drawn away, and worship other gods and serve them, I announce to you today that you shall surely perish . . ." (Dt. 30: 17-18).

They did not perish that day. In fact, they did not even perish the first day they turned away, because of God's patience and mercy.
 
Bob,

That is a weak argument, although I see your point - there was no punctuation in the original Greek, that I am aware of. You still haven't addressed my main points, particularly the contradiction you are faced with.
 
"Bob10" -- I don't believe the Bible teaches that the soul is immortal, does it? Afterall, James says if we convert a sinner from the error of his way, we save a soul from death (James 5:19-20).

And BECAUSE James says that, we are to try and ascertain from Scripture exactly what is "the death of the soul". We know that the death of the body is SEPARATION from the soul and spirit. Even so, the death of the soul is ETERNAL SEPARATION of the soul from God [along with the body which was associated with it]. This is also eternal torment.

It is abundantly clear from THE NEW TESTAMENT [which has revealed far more about the other world than the OT] that the soul is indeed the person himself divested of his "tabernacle" or "tent" -- this earthly body. Therefore the soul -- the person -- does not sleep after death, but is fully conscious in either Hades or Heaven. This is clearly revealed in Luke 16:19-31, and if you wish to disbelieve the Lord, that is your prerogative, but it does have serious consequences.

While in the OT Sheol appears to be the place where souls do absolutely nothing, in the NT everything comes to light. Those who erroneously go back to the OT to disprove the NT don't really understand that God revealed much, much more through the Lord Jesus Christ and His apostles than He did through the OT prophets.

We do not read of the Lake of Fire until the very last book of the NT. So to run back to the OT and claim that the Lake of Fire is not even mentioned, therefore Gehenna simply refers to the valley of Hinnom below Jerusalem where the rubbish was burned is pure foolishness. It is also a sin to disbelieve Christ.

Bob10, you will gain absolutely nothing from trying to prove that the soul sleeps after leaving the body. If Christ says that the rich man was in torment the moment he departed this scene, the least you can do is believe Him. If He also said that the thief on the cross would enjoy the bliss of Paradise that same day, then believe Him. Whatever Christ says is ABSOLUTE TRUTH. He is THE TRUTH.
 
sower

And BECAUSE James says that, we are to try and ascertain from Scripture exactly what is "the death of the soul"


most Christians I talk to don't even believe that souls die. At least you mention the death of the soul.
 
What is so funny to me, is that people who beleive in immortal souls, don't beleive that people die. And people die. We don't have contact with these people who supposedly exist. If they were, say, ghosts, or something like, then there should be no problem with psycics, sayonces(sp), or things, or people that contact the dead. We know that "People ghosts" are demons of deception about this. It doesn't make any sense to beleive in an immortal soul.
 
right on, Droopfeather.

A good example of this is when Saul tries to contact the dead Samuel.


Samuel was dead (25:1). If, as some believe, he went to heaven, Satan would not have been given permission to bring him down in response to the incantations of a wicked woman.

Also God had already refused to communicate by dreams, Urim, or prophets (verse 6).


The Lord's disapproval is recorded in 1Chron. 10:13, 14, noting that Saul died for his transgressions. He inquired of an evil spirit and not of the Lord.

The figure that appeared to the spiritualist woman was an impersonation of the prophet by an evil angel, perhaps by Satan himself. If he could transform himself to appear as an angel of light (2 Cor. 11:14), he could also appear as the prophet Samuel.
 
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