Bible Study Soul Sleep (the unconscious dead)

[Free]

Bob,

Samuel was dead (25:1). If, as some believe, he went to heaven, Satan would not have been given permission to bring him down in response to the incantations of a wicked woman.

No one believes he went to heaven. He was in Hades where Saul disturbed him (1 Sam. 28:15). Samuel gives one last prophecy concerning Saul's fate.

The figure that appeared to the spiritualist woman was an impersonation of the prophet by an evil angel, perhaps by Satan himself.

No. It was Samuel himself.

And you still haven't answered my previous post.

 

[Bob10]

free

I have told you several times now that psuche has several meanings, not just "life." Why do you fail to understand that?

I am aware of the many meanings or translations, but all of them have to do with the whole mortal being.

I'm aware of the many different meanings of psuche, as the following link(s) will indicate ---
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/psuche.html

even "nephesh" - OT Hebrew
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/nephesh.html - nephesh, many translations, too

-----------------

And you still haven't answered my previous post.

what contradiction am I supposed to have gotten myself [psuche] into ?

 

[Free]

Bob,

what contradiction am I supposed to have gotten myself [psuche] into ?

According to you, if the body is dead, there is no life, no soul. You now have a contradiction in Matt. 10:28 since man is able to "kill the body" but not the soul, whereas God can destroy both. The verse indicates that the death of the body is separate from the death of the soul, they are not the same.

 

[Sower]

It doesn't make any sense to believe in an immortal soul.

To the natural man, nothing in the Word of God "makes sense". It requires the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit to teach us God's truths, but those who insist on using human reason [even after they are saved] rather than faith will always stumble at God's Word.

In fact, it makes perfect sense to believe in an immortal soul when we take the whole content of Scripture into account. Adam was made a "living soul" which means than God intended Adam's soul to keep living for ever. Had Adam simply obeyed God, he would have continued to live.

Sin brought with it death, which is the separation of the soul and spirit from the body. But there is also a second death, the eternal separation of the soul from God. If souls were simply annihilated, or "absorbed" into God, or left to sleep for ever, there would have been no need for the redemptive work of Christ.

It is because souls are precious to God and do live either with Him or in eternal torment without Him that Christ became our Saviour. God is not willing that any should perish [suffer eternal torment] but that all should come to repentance. God is concerned with the redemption of our whole being -- body, soul, and spirit.

 

[Bob10]

free

According to you, if the body is dead, there is no life, no soul. You now have a contradiction in Matt. 10:28 since man is able to "kill the body" but not the soul...............The verse indicates that the death of the body is separate from the death of the soul, they are not the same.

What is so difficult here.

Another human can not take your life permanently.

"My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell [the lake of fireâ€â€the second, final death]" (Luke 12:4-5).

Men can destroy one's physical life. But this is only the first death (Heb. 9:27).

God has the ability to raise back to life those killed by men.

In the lake of fire (Rev. 20:14-15; Mal. 4:1), Both the body and life (soul) of anyone who refuses to repent of his sins will be destroyed forever.

If one dies at the hands of men, it will be only a temporary death. If God kills a man, it will be for eternity.

 

[Featherbop]

It doesn't make any sense to believe in an immortal soul.

To the natural man, nothing in the Word of God "makes sense". It requires the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit to teach us God's truths, but those who insist on using human reason [even after they are saved] rather than faith will always stumble at God's Word.

In fact, it makes perfect sense to believe in an immortal soul when we take the whole content of Scripture into account. Adam was made a "living soul" which means than God intended Adam's soul to keep living for ever. Had Adam simply obeyed God, he would have continued to live.

Sin brought with it death, which is the separation of the soul and spirit from the body. But there is also a second death, the eternal separation of the soul from God. If souls were simply annihilated, or "absorbed" into God, or left to sleep for ever, there would have been no need for the redemptive work of Christ.

It is because souls are precious to God and do live either with Him or in eternal torment without Him that Christ became our Saviour. God is not willing that any should perish [suffer eternal torment] but that all should come to repentance. God is concerned with the redemption of our whole being -- body, soul, and spirit.

Yeah, and people who understand only by "spirit" do not understand logic, and do not have understanding. Why reject either one?

But anyway, The rest of your post is just personal conjecture and understanding. You are stating an opinion, and nothing more. Some, I agree is true, and some, I do not.

 

[Bob10]

sower

God is not willing that any should perish [suffer eternal torment].......

IMO, God is not willing that any should perish [unconscious, graveyard dead].


Some folks thought that the Galileans who were killed by Pilate suffered this death because they were just bad people. Jesus told them otherwise, and said, "but unless you repent, you will all perish as they did" (Lk 13:1-3).

"Or those eighteen who were killed when the tower of Siloam fell on them --- do you thing that they were worse offenders than all the others living in Jerusalem? No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all perish just as they did" (Lk 13: 4-5).


"If Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have died in Christ have perished" (1 Cor. 15: 17-18, NRSV).


Perish is not eteranl conscious torment; it is graveyard DEAD -- according to the previous biblical examples.

 

[Sower]

Perish is not eteranl conscious torment; it is graveyard DEAD -- according to the previous biblical examples.[/quote]

Bob10:

If that's all it was then there would have been absolutely no need for the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, or the shedding of His "precious" blood. All souls would be "graveyard" dead, and no one would need the Saviour. So you can see how utterly fallacious your belief is.

Oh, BTW Satan, the Beast, and the False Prophet as well as all the unrighteous dead are cast into "the Lake of Fire". I take it that too means "graveyard dead" -- quiet as a church mouse?

 

[Willow]

Bob10 said:

Afterall, James says if we convert a sinner from the error of his way, we save a soul from death (James 5:19-20).

...we save a soul from EVENTUAL death. (maybe) The soul death at the 2nd Coming.

 

[Bob10]

Willow (from extremely dry AZ)

...we save a soul from EVENTUAL death. (maybe) The soul death at the 2nd Coming.

perhaps we save a soul from the second death (Rev 20:6), from which there is no resurrection (Rev 21:8).

 

[Willow]

Right. I mean that's how I understand it.

Dry heat in AZ is a lot of bull. This is when we get our humidity. The Monsoon season, which is right now, is usually about 60% humidity. The rest of the year, it's bone dry.

 

[Bob10]

satan impersonated the righteous Samuel, to deceive

Did the witch really contact the dead Samuel ??

But was it really Samuel?

Samuel was dead (1Sam. 25:1).

If, as some believe, he went to heaven, Satan would not have been given permission to bring him down in response to the incantations of a wicked woman.

Also God had already refused to communicate by dreams, Urim, or prophets (1Sam. 28:6). The Lord's disapproval is recorded in 1Chron. 10:13, 14, noting that Saul died for his transgressions. He inquired of an evil spirit and not of the Lord.

The figure that appeared to the spiritualist woman was an impersonation of the prophet by an evil angel, perhaps by Satan himself. If he could transform himself to appear as an angel of light (2 Cor. 11:14), he could also appear as the prophet Samuel.

In 1Sam. 28:11, we see Samuel was supposedly brought up. By modern theology we would expect righteous people like Samuel to come down. Pagan ideas assumed all the dead were below ground. The popular pagan idea about death slipped into the beliefs of God's people before Jesus' time.

 

[Bob10]

If Saul had thought it necessary to his conversation with Samuel that the body of Samuel should be called out of the grave, he would have taken the witch with him to Ramah, where his sepulchre was;

but the design was wholly upon his soul, which yet, if it became visible, was expected to appear in the usual resemblance of the body; and God permitted the devil, to answer the design, to put on Samuel's shape, that those who would not receive the love of the truth might be given up to strong delusions and believe a lie.


That it could not be the soul of Samuel himself they might easily apprehend when it ascended out of the earth, for the spirit of a man, much more of a good man, goes upward, Eccl 3:21.

But, if people will be deceived, it is just with God to say, "Let them be deceived." That the devil, by the divine permission, should be able to personate Samuel is not strange, since he can transform himself into an angel of light!


nor is it strange that he should be permitted to do it upon this occasion, that Saul might be driven to despair, by enquiring of the devil, since he would not, in a right manner, enquire of the Lord, by which he might have had comfort.

 

[IesuKakkoii]

i think what Paul meant is the souls are *asleep* because they don't have Jesus in their hearts so they're asleep and empty cause without Jesus life is like a Reese's without the penut butter in the middle :D

 

[Bob10]

you are wrong. Jesus said Lazarus was asleep; "then He said more plainly, Lazarus is dead" - Jn 11: 11, 14.

 

[Free]

bob,

Samuel was dead (1Sam. 25:1).

Exactly. That was the whole point of the argument.

The Lord's disapproval is recorded in 1Chron. 10:13, 14, noting that Saul died for his transgressions. He inquired of an evil spirit and not of the Lord.

Not entirely correct. Saul died for consulting a medium, as verse 13 states.

The figure that appeared to the spiritualist woman was an impersonation of the prophet by an evil angel, perhaps by Satan himself.

Once again you are reading a meaning into the text which is unwarranted. There is no reason whatsoever to believe that it was an evil spirit and not Samuel, except, of course, if you don't believe that people have souls. In that case, it is obvious that one is reading an incorrect meaning into the text.

As I stated previously:

He was in Hades where Saul disturbed him (1 Sam. 28:15). Samuel even gives one last prophecy concerning Saul's fate.

In 1Sam. 28:11, we see Samuel was supposedly brought up. By modern theology we would expect righteous people like Samuel to come down. Pagan ideas assumed all the dead were below ground. The popular pagan idea about death slipped into the beliefs of God's people before Jesus' time.

Huh? If you read the OT, it only talks about "Sheol" or the "grave." Hades was/is the place where departed souls go to await the resurrection. That is a Jewish understanding of the state of the dead which was prevelant during OT times, and probably even now. Whether or not pagans believe that is irrelevant.

If Saul had thought it necessary to his conversation with Samuel that the body of Samuel should be called out of the grave, he would have taken the witch with him to Ramah, where his sepulchre was

Exactly. Saul had a conversation with someone who didn't have a body.

This passage proves that man has a soul. It is also very consistent with Matt. 17:3.

 

[Bob10]

Free

......if you don't believe that people have souls. In that case, it is obvious that one is reading an incorrect meaning into the text.

I could say the same thing. If one believes people have immortal souls, it is obvious that one is reading an incorrect meaning into the text.

(we don't have a soul, we are a living soul - Gen. 2:7)


*********************************

Samuel said, "Why have you disquieted me...?" This indicates that he was not enjoying the bliss of heaven, but rather the sleep of death. (cf. Job 3:17; Ecc. 9:5,10; Jn. 11 esp. vs. 11,24,25,44).

Would God raise Samuel in these circumstances after instructing Israel: "Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them, I am the LORD your God"? (Lev. 19:31).

God punished Saul with death. "So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to inquire of it; And inquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse." (1 Chronicles 10:13-14).


God could have used the witch as He did the lying prophet of Bethel (1 Kings 13). In so doing, it no more implies sanction to the witch's activities than it does to Beelzebub in Jesus' allusion, (Matt. 12:27) or to the belief of the Pharisees in Luke 16:19-31.

 

[Bob10]

Matt. 17:3

I believe Matt. 17:3 was merely a vision. Jesus said, "Tell the vision to no man" - Matt 17:9.


Peter also saw a vision - Acts 10: 17

John was in vision on the Isle of Patmos when he wrote Revelation; nothing he saw was tangible.

 

[passionatefool]

Thought i'd add a comment here about the whole Saul deal. When the "spirit" was called by the witch of Endor she describes the spirit as an old man covered with a mantle and then Saul percieves it, the spirit, to be Samuel. I do not believe that this is a clear indication of it actually being Samuel's spirit. Since Saul has fallen out of favor with God we can hardly rely upon his perception.

As for the whole monist/dualist debate I say why can there not be any middle ground? I see the picture being painted in scripture to be more of a wholistic duality of the soul. I do not believe that upon the moment of death our final destination is met. That meaning, I don't think you neccesarily go to heaven or hell as soon as you die. I do agree though that some form of "youness" is retained without the body. What I do not agree with is that we will have conciousness as now defined. I see the state of the dead as a state of feeling rather than actual knowingness. I see that the state of feeling you are in in death is directly correlated with the actions and feelings you kept during life. This concept is mostly my own conjecture, based on personal experience. So, take it for what its worth .

So to end, yes, we do have some form of ourselves that survives the death of the body. No, I do not believe this form has any power in and of itself. Nor do I believe that this form has any cognitive powers.

Death to me is a lot like a holding bin where we know nothing and yet still feel that which is applicable until the Great Judgement of the LORD our GOD.

Blessings,

Passionatefool

 

[Featherbop]

It just occurred to me that anyone who beleives in immortal souls, cannot accept Genesis literally. Souls were part of God's good creation, and Geensis tells us what souls are. Anyone who takes Genesis literally completely, cannot logically beleive in immortal souls.