Bible Study Soul Sleep (the unconscious dead)

[evanman]

1Sa 28:11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.
12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.

Says a lot about the old woman. She was asked to conjur up Samuel and is shocked when Samuel actually appears. Could be that she wasn't expecting Samuel as she normally didn't really conjur up spirits but illusions of her own making. (Trickery)

 

[passionatefool]

Evanman,

I don't read the verse in that manner. I see her shock as being related to the fact that Saul had cast out all the witches and wizards that had familiar spirits. Then when the Woman sees Samuel she cries out and then addresses Saul. Notice what she says to Saul. I believe that she cried out not because she wasn't used to spirits coming up, but that she had found out from the spirit that he was Saul. So naturally since Saul had killed and cast out her kind she was afraid. Trust me my friend it is most definately not unheard of for spirits to visit witches. There is much more to that scene than trickery.

Blessings,

Passionatefool

 

[Bob10]

sorry but the Bible says the witch "Saw Samuel". You can argue until you are blue but the Bible says what it says.

Of course. The record in the Bible is recording who Saul and the witch thought it was.

Saul, it seems, was not permitted to see any manner of similitude himself, but he must take the woman's word for it, that she saw an old man covered with a mantle, or robe, the habit of a judge, which Samuel had sometimes worn, and some think it was for the sake of that, and the majesty of its aspect, that she called this apparition Elohim, a god or gods; for so magistrates are styled, Ps 82:1.

That it could not be the soul of Samuel himself they might easily apprehend when it ascended out of the earth, for the spirit of a man, much more of a good man, goes upward, Eccl 3:21 -- to be with God.

 

[Bob10]

God did not say Adam HAD a soul! He said Adam WAS a "soul." The word merely meant a living "creature," and had nothing to do with anything immortal.

The very same word is translated "creature" many times throughout the Old Testament, and in Genesis. "And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature [nephesh] after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so."

Look up the word in Strong's Exhaustive Concordance. It is number 5315, and is rendered: "Nephesh; a breathing creature, i.e., animal or (abstr.) vitality: used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental); appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, dead, desire, contented, fish, ghost, greedy, he, heart, (jeopardy of life; in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her, him, my, thy) self, them (your) selves, slay, soul, tablet, they, thing, will, would have it."

Notice the many references to life, and the life principle in all living creatures. The true understanding of nephesh can only be gained by looking at all its many usages in connection with animals and man. Notice an outstanding example: "He that toucheth the dead body of any man shall be unclean seven days" (Numbers 19:11). The word "body" is from the Hebrew nephesh! Notice also these many identical examples: Numbers 6:6; 9:6, 7, 10; 19:11, 13, 16, and Haggai 2:13, which says, "Then said Haggai, If one that is unclean by a dead body [Hebrew: nephesh] touch any of these, shall it be unclean? And the priests answered and said, It shall be unclean."


Obviously, the translators would never deign to render these, and dozens of other examples throughout the Bible, as "soul!" Otherwise, they would be rendering it, "unclean by a dead soul," and this would demolish their cherished, false, and completely pagan doctrine of the "immortality of the soul."
http://www.garnertedarmstrong.ws/pubs/HeavenOnEarth.htm

 

[passionatefool]

I have a question to ask...

How would you interpret this verse?

2Corinthians 5:6-9

"Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
(For we walk by faith, not by sight
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him."

To me this verse seems to indicate that being absent from the body in some form or another is quite a possibility. In fact a preferable state than in the body.

Blessings,

Passionatefool

 

[evanman]

Being absent from this body is just a way of saying "dead".

 

[Bob10]

passionatefool

How would you interpret this verse?

2Corinthians 5:6-9

"Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

evanman

Being absent from this body is just a way of saying "dead".

IMO, evanman hit the nail on the head !

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"For I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.†---Phillipians 1:23-24 NAS / 2Timothy 4:6-8

Notice, Paul did not say where he would go or when he would be with Christ.

There is not one word mentioning heaven here, nor is there one word saying that he would be with Christ immediately.


In 2Timothy 4:6-8 Paul wrote: "For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing."

Paul explains what he meant by being with Christ. He does not receive his reward immediately at death. But there is laid up a crown of righteousness which the Lord shall give him at that day. What day? At Christ's appearing----His second coming.

In Isaiah 40:10 we notice this same day mentioned: "Behold, the Lord God will come….behold, his reward is with him…." See also Revelation 22: 12.


To die is gain! In death, there is no knowledge of passing time (Eccl. 9: 5,6,10; Ps. 146: 4). THE NEXT MOMENT IS THE RESURRECTION!

 

[Elijah message]

God 'breathed into his nostrils the [breath of life; and man became a living soul.]' Gen. 2:7 Does he know anything before this time??

"His [breath goeth forth], he [returneth to his earth]; in that [very day his thoughts PERISH]". Psalms 146:4 Does he know ANYTHING after this period of time?

God stated, "Thou shalt surely die." and the serpent said, "ye shall not surely die." Gen. 2:17 & Gen. 3:4 Which do you believe?

Does man have an immortal soul? Hardly! If so, which direction of eternity does it recollect?

"... who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of Kings, and the Lord of Lords; [WHO *ONLY HAS IMMORTALITY], .." See all of 1 Tim. 6:14-16.

It seems that there were others here on planet earth at the time of mans creation, huh? Who was that??? You know, the 'serpent' said. Now notice what it takes for man to have [CONDITIONAL] immortality? In Gen. 3:22 we see the GodHead carrying on a conversation with themselves, yet, it is RECORDED for our understanding, if we can?
"And the Lord said, Behold man has become as one of us, to know good and evil: [AND LEAST HE PUT FORTH HIS HAND, AND TAKE ALSO OF THE TREE OF LIFE, AND EAT, AND LIVE FOREVER]:..." You can read on in verse 23-24. And we see in Rev. 22:1-2 that the saved will once again have access to the tree of CONDITIONAL IMMORTALITY"! See Na. 1:9.

Christ said that 'He BEHELD sATAN AS LIGHTENING [FALL FROM HEAVEN]" Luke 10:18 And notice satans conversation in Luke 4:5-6 with Christ! You will perhaps (?) see that all [open sinners] from the beginning of earths creation, were either following Christ or they were following the ex/covering cherub that rebelled in heaven itself! Here is what is 'inspired'..

"And the devil said unto Him, All of this power will i give Thee, and the glory of them: [for that is delivered unto me: and to whomsoever i will i give it.] If Thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine."

Yes, satan was here with his first lie in the garden, and this first lie of an IMMORTAL SOUL teaching, will play an extremely important part in the Mark of the Beast ending, just before the Lord comes the second time! See 2 Thess. 2:9-12! (*read verse 12 clearly!)

---Elija

 

[Bob10]

Elijah message

See 2 Thess. 2:9-12! (*read verse 12 clearly!)

vs 13 seems to say that God chooses some people to believe the truth.

vs 10 -- while others are not given this blessing to receive the truth (?)

 

[Elijah message]

The event of 1 Thess. 4:15-17, where are all the souls of the dead now?

Elijah here: This above question was asked of me before.
It takes the breath of life to make one [a living soul]. Adam was dead & sleeping before God breathed the breath of life into him. Then he [became a living soul]. All who die are promised a resurrection, just not at the same time. All who die are dead as was Adam before & after the breath leaves him. They all sleep until two resurrections. First the saints who will not die the second death, and then the lost who are also promised a resurrection that will die the second death. See Eze. 18:4 & Eze. 18:20. Other wise satan's first lie would be truth.

The God/Head [only] has immortality. Their time is ETERNITY. (NO BEGINNING or end. Same as their Eternal Gospel & Eternal Covenant.
And US?? We have a beginning that can become eternally gone or eternally saved as in Obad. 16 for the lost, and as seen in John 3:16 for the saved. Yet, we are ALWAYS with a starting conditional promise point of John 3:3's requirement, & an eternity from that point on. A [conditional] immortality.

The tree of life was removed from Adam & Eve God said, otherwise they could have eaten and become immortal sinners. That is why one needs the Everlasting Gospel & Everlasting Covenant to complete its knowledge of soul sleep. From Gen. to Rev. We see in the last book & page of the Whole of the Gospel that once again the resurrected d-e-a-d saved soul will eat of the tree of life! This eternal life has a starting point. They NOW again have the God given immortality of conditional immortal life. See Nah. 1:9.

I don't mean to sound harsh, but let me say this in street talk? ALL die. (yes, there will be an exception) But these are DEAD. It matters not where we are at while dead. Cut up, shot, lions dens, war crimes, on the moon, (surely there have been some lost in space from other nations??) or in the oceans, or whatever, we are DEAD! (and yes, it does matter to our loved ones that are left)

But, Rev. finds [some] standing in the Judgement by BOOKS only. Unless we believe D-E-A-D people are standing??? The ones in the First Resurrection are seen in the Words of Christ, saying.. "I WILL BRING MY REWARD WITH ME". All the rest that come forth from death will be judged by the saints (in part) during the 1000 years of earth's desolation. These will die the second death of Obad. 16. (See 1 Cor. 6:2-3 & Rev. 20:12 & Eccl. 12:13-14)

---Elija

"I CAN DO ALL THINGS THROUGH OUT CHRIST WHICH STRENGTHENETH ME" Phil. 4:13

"MY GRACE IS SUFFICIENT FOR THEE, FOR MY STRENGTH IS MADE PERFECT IN WEAKNESS" 2 Cor. 12:9

 

[Bob10]

According to the Bible, a human being exists as a whole unit and remains also as a whole person in the hand of God after death. A person is not at any time viewed as a bodiless soul.


http://www.studylight.org/dic/hbd/view.cgi?number=T5974

 

[Elijah message]

According to the Bible, a human being exists as a whole unit and remains also as a whole person in the hand of God after death. A person is not at any time viewed as a bodiless soul.


http://www.studylight.org/dic/hbd/view.cgi?number=T5974

*******
I know what some folks are taught. But run a copy of the post & use it for later study or reference. If one IS SINCERE we can be certain that the Holy Spirit of the Rom. 8:14 verse will straighten 'which/ever' one of the two of us erring ones out, huh? (we can't both be right! :fadein

---Elijah

 

[Bob10]

Elijah message,

There probably is a difference between "soul" and "spirit".

I believe, someplace in Job, it says of the dead, (paraphrasing) "the spirit goes back to God who gave it."


I just basically think the "soul" means the whole mortal being -- a person (Acts 27:37) -------- without Plato's Greek input.


I'm not so decisive on the "spirit".

 

[Elijah message]

Elijah here:
Well, we are told that there is NO mental love, worship nor/knowledge in death. So one must be no better off than dead. Eccl. 9:5-6 Psalms 115:17.

Then if I really believe God? Eccl. 9:6 above, coupled with Job 14:10 on through 21 states that it is all over for these ones. (as far as probation goes) But the rightous can see a REAL bible study here!! :fadein:

But please read the chapter & take note of the question in verse 10!
"But man dieth, and wasteth away; yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?" Please do read on through verse 21.
We do remember Gen. 3:4 right? The devil said "ye shall not surrly die." And what does one constantly hear today??

Eccl. 9:5-6
".. but the dead [know not anything] ... for the [memory of them] is forgotton. [Also their love], and their hatred, and their envy, is perished.."

Psalms 115:17
"The dead PRAISE NOT the Lord, [neather any that go down into SILENCE]."

Surely there is much more, but how much do I need? See Rom. 8:14

 

[Bob10]

seems we agree on everything.

man is mortal. he dies and is unconscious till the resurrection.

 

[Elijah message]

seems we agree on everything.

man is mortal. he dies and is unconscious till the resurrection.

*****
Forum: This greement' is concerning the above thread. :wink:
1 Peter 4:17 finds these in agreement JUDGED FIRST! You know, the dead in Christ shall RISE FIRST. And the others? See Luke 12:47-48.

---Elijah