Bible Study Speculation: If Jesus had sinned

[Solo]

First:

You two wouldn't POSSIBLY offer that YOU ARE born of God then RIGHT? Or is it that you two would profess to NOT being sinners? Hmmmm.........Either way, you have elected to follow that which is 'not YET'.

But HERE is the 1 John scripture that DOES matter RIGHT NOW;

1 John 3:23

23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Hmmm.....again......... WHAT did this say?.........on the NAME OF HIS SON. how do you reacon THAT one slipped in there?

MEC

Jesus Christ the only begotten son of God cannot sin according to 1 John 3:9.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1 John 3:9

 

[Imagican]

1 John 3:1

1Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

2Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

3And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

5And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

11For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

12Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

13Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.

14We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

15Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

16Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

17But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

18My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

19And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.

20For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.

21Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.

22And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

24And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Guys, (and gal), I DO believe that you have chosen something a 'bit' more complex to understand than that 'understanding' which you have offered.

There ARE simple things for understanding and there ARE those that are MORE complex. You have chosen to 'attempt' to offer a 'weak' discernment of something VASTLY more complex than I 'think' you realize.

I DO believe that IF you will TAKE what you offered IN CONTEXT, you will PROBABLY find that you're discernment is askew. If NOT, then I will leave you with your confusion.

BUT, I STILL WILL offer that to state that Christ was UNABLE to express FREEDOM of choice is WRONG. Christ WAS able to DO as HE PLEASED. The important THING to 'understand' is that HE CHOSE to follow the WILL of His Father. AS we TOO are expected to FOLLOW in His footsteps. And WE TOO, (even those that 'claim' to BE Christians), are ABLE to follow WHAT we WILL.

Christ was NOT simply a 'man', but HE WAS a 'man'. He was a 'man' born of flesh AND Spirit. The ONLY begotten Son of God.

Oh, and did ANYONE notice this;

8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

I have offered before, concerning 'beginning' and HOW this word is RELATIVE to the 'creation' of MAN. That there is ONE beginning that has NOTHING to DO with THE beginning, but is in reference to the BEGINNING of man. And another beginning that is reference to a 'time' BEFORE the 'beginning of man'. Now, with the scripture offered above, is it NOT perfectly CLEAR that Satan did NOT sin 'from the BEGINNING of his 'creation', but in the BEGINNING in reference to the 'beginning of MAN'? For we KNOW that the scriptures PLAINLY offer that there was a 'time' that Satan was the most GIFTED of ALL angels. This is direct reference to a 'time' BEFORE Satan SINNED. So Satan DIDN'T ACTUALLY sin from the 'beginning' of HIS EXISTENCE, but the 'beginning' in reference to an OBVIOUS, DIFFERENT 'beginning'.

MEC

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Jesus Christ the only begotten son of God cannot sin according to 1 John 3:9.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1 John 3:9

Hmmm. Okay. This is what I thought Solo meant. Let me see if I can connect the dots.
It started when protos asked this silly question. "What if Jesus had sinned?" in the op.

I know that Jesus didn't sin. I know that it was impossible for Him to do so and that asking, "What if Jesus had sinned?" is as logical as asking, "What if circles are squares." However, I think it's interesting to ponder over the consequences for God to sin.

Any theories? Existence ends? No God?

I had stated that God is the one that got to decide what is and is not sin. (Rank has it's privileges, you know)
Solo contributed the verse from 1 John 3:9
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1 John 3:9
Solo, assuming that everyone in the thread remembered the op, and also that all knew that Jesus was born of God, and therefore, believed that 1 John 3:9 would make it clear that Jesus can not sin. I read the verse that Solo posted, and I agreed with it.


Solo, how do you suppose we have gotten so confused?

 

[jgredline]

Jesus Christ the only begotten son of God cannot sin according to 1 John 3:9.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1 John 3:9

Michael
I must say that I have never looked at this verse in the way you presented it...
I have pondered it all day long, and really, is so 100% right, that there is no way for anyone to weasel out of this verse...and make it say Jesus could have sinned.....Even those who are in the Jesus is not God camp will have trouble with this verse....Good stuff Michael....I love learning new stuff...
javier

 

[Solo]

Only the devil and his children will reject the truth of God, and just as John has recorded that which the Holy Spirit inspired him to write, "whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not." Those who have been born again, born of God, do not sin; even though the flesh is sold under sin. That New Creature, born of God, at the moment the Holy Spirit quickens one to believe on the name of Jesus Christ, does not sin. The flesh will continue to serve sin until Jesus returns.

18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. 19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness. 20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. 21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.
1 John 5:18-21

 

[Imagican]

So, you folks do NOT believe that Jesus was SO stressed at the prospect of WHAT He MUST face that upon His LAST moments of prayer before being arrested that HE was LITERALLY 'sweating BLOOD'? You CAN'T SEE that He NEEDED every bit of strength that God could offer Him to FACE His fate?

In other words, you are UNABLE to fathom the fortitude NEEDED by Christ to FACE His fate? And ALL that is offered throughout the scriptures STATING that we ARE to 'FIGHT' the 'good fight'. I suppose that there WAS NO 'example', we are to simply LAY DOWN and let God and Christ be RESPONSIBLE for EVERY one of our actions? That WE are responsible for NOTHING concerning our 'behavior'? Just sit back and ask for 'forgiveness'?

For one to assert that Christ had NO CHOICE is to belittle Him beyond comprehension. You would indicate that He was NOTHING short of some 'mindless robot' that simply blindly followed the 'will of His Father' with absolutely NO CHOICE in the matter. Can't you SEE how this would VOID EVERYTHING that we have been offered?

For Christ to be 'sinless' was MANDATED for Him to BE the Messiah. He fulfilled this 'mandate'. But you would have it that He had NO CHOICE. That there was NOTHING that He 'could' have done 'differently'. WHY do you reacon that he spent His LAST night PRAYING for 'STRENGTH'? And WHY do you reacon that Christ STATED that it was NOT His will that He obeyed, but THAT OF THE FATHER?

I find it TOTALLY difficult to understand HOW one could attempt to 'take away' what He offered by IGNORING the FACT that Christ WAS a man. It was MANDATORY that He face ALL the 'weakness' of EVERY man in order to BE the Lamb of God. This IS how He was ABLE to 'overcome' sin and in this 'overcoming DEATH'.

But, I guess to actually SEE this would be to 'face' some conclusions that would 'alter' one's doctrine. And to do this would be to admit that their 'doctrine' may VERY well indeed be flawed.

And the world WILL remain 'blind' to the simplicity that IS Christ Jesus. The words that He offered WILL seem as foolishness to those unwilling to accept them.

One last question; If Christ was TOTALLY unable to sin, would it NOT have been IMPOSSIBLE for Him to 'be killed BEFORE His time? IF this is 'true', then WHY was it NEEDED that He be PROTECTED, BY GOD, until His TIME? We have examples of His family being WARNED of impending DEATH if they did NOT flee to Egypt. We have Christ 'moving' from town to town durring His ministry KNOWING; to 'stay' in ONE PLACE would have brought about His 'demise' BEFORE HIS TIME. HOW do you reacon He KNEW it was 'time to move'. For IF there was NO OTHER POSSIBLE OUTCOME than the Gospels that we read, WHY was it needed for us to READ the words of His life that plainly offer that IF He had 'done things differently', THINGS WOULD have been 'different'?

MEC

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Only the devil and his children will reject the truth of God, and just as John has recorded that which the Holy Spirit inspired him to write, "whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not." Those who have been born again, born of God, do not sin; even though the flesh is sold under sin. That New Creature, born of God, at the moment the Holy Spirit quickens one to believe on the name of Jesus Christ, does not sin. The flesh will continue to serve sin until Jesus returns.

A 'split personality' of sorts eh? Once one is 'born again', HATING their brothers and sisters is NO LONGER a 'sin'? Refusing to GIVE whatever one is ask is NO LONGER SIN eh? Adultery, fornication, masturbation, lies, stealing, coveting, worshiping idols, etc. NONE Of these 'matter' any more to those that are 'saved'?

There is NOT ONE that is righteous SOLO, NOT ONE. Yet you would offer that 'once one is born again' that they CANNOT sin. Fear and trembling? I don't see this possible for one that is UNABLE to sin once they accept Christ into their hearts.

I have 'heard' these words offered by others. Wishful, fleshly thinking is all I 'see' here. And I guess you don't believe in 'judgement'? That ONCE one accepts Christ INTO THEIR HEARTS, at this point they can 'sin at leasure' for it is NO LONGER sin to those that are 'saved'?

Solo, let me ask you this: Does the WORLD HATE YOU, my brother? Or do you kinda 'fit right in'? Are YOU 'born of God'? Do you sin?

18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. 19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness. 20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. 21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.
1 John 5:18-21

 

[Solo]

Only the devil and his children will reject the truth of God, and just as John has recorded that which the Holy Spirit inspired him to write, "whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not." Those who have been born again, born of God, do not sin; even though the flesh is sold under sin. That New Creature, born of God, at the moment the Holy Spirit quickens one to believe on the name of Jesus Christ, does not sin. The flesh will continue to serve sin until Jesus returns.

A 'split personality' of sorts eh? Once one is 'born again', HATING their brothers and sisters is NO LONGER a 'sin'? Refusing to GIVE whatever one is ask is NO LONGER SIN eh? Adultery, fornication, masturbation, lies, stealing, coveting, worshiping idols, etc. NONE Of these 'matter' any more to those that are 'saved'?

There is NOT ONE that is righteous SOLO, NOT ONE. Yet you would offer that 'once one is born again' that they CANNOT sin. Fear and trembling? I don't see this possible for one that is UNABLE to sin once they accept Christ into their hearts.

I have 'heard' these words offered by others. Wishful, fleshly thinking is all I 'see' here. And I guess you don't believe in 'judgement'? That ONCE one accepts Christ INTO THEIR HEARTS, at this point they can 'sin at leasure' for it is NO LONGER sin to those that are 'saved'?

Solo, let me ask you this: Does the WORLD HATE YOU, my brother? Or do you kinda 'fit right in'? Are YOU 'born of God'? Do you sin?

18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. 19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness. 20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. 21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen. 1 John 5:18-21

MEC,
Let me fix your post so that folks understand that you are the one who wrote in blue and not me.

First, in answer to your referencing "hating brothers and sisters" let me say that the children of the devil are not brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus; also confronting false teachers with the truth of the word of God is not hating individuals, but in fact is loving those individuals so much that prayer, reproof, correction with Scriptures, and continual guidence is proof of that love.

Secondly, believers are admonished to walk as Jesus Christ gave us example, and to flee the lusts of the flesh by walking in the Spirit, however if we do sin we have an advocate in the Saviour Jesus Christ. Those that are born again are in Christ Jesus, sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption as Jesus Christ paid the full debt of sin for each one that is born again, born from above, born of God.

Third, Jesus Christ is righteous, and he alone is righteous. Those who are born again have the righteousness of Jesus Christ imputed to them. Those that are born again, born from above, born of God are new creatures living in a corrupt flesh sold under sin. The new creature is that which walks in the Spirit and does not fulfill the lusts of the flesh; and this new creature cannot sin because he/she is born of God. If one who has been born again walks in the flesh will be destroyed in the flesh but the born again new creature will be saved in the day of Jesus Christ. Those who are not born again are the same old creature living in a corrupt flesh sold under sin; and they can do nothing but walk in the flesh awaiting the day of judgment as they are condemned already.

Last, the impression that one can continue to sin as a born again believer without damage to one's life is a false impression; and to believe that a born again believer does not believe that sinning is no longer sin is also a false impression; however, the truth is that all who are born again, born of God have eternal life as the penalty for all of their sins have been paid for at Calvary because of the work of their Saviour Jesus Christ.

In conclusion, unless you repent and are born again, you are not my brother in Christ Jesus. It is a simple thing to be born again, but one must repent of their rebelliousness and rejection of the truth of the word of God before they can submit to the Holy Spirit on their way to believing on the name of Jesus Christ. The evidence that one is a believer in Jesus Christ and has been born again, is the understanding that the LORD JEHOVAH GOD came in the flesh and is JESUS CHRIST. All who are born again, born of God, sin when they walk in the flesh and not in the Spirit; but the New Creature that is born again, born of God cannot sin as he/she cannot walk in the flesh.


Now back to the OP. Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God and He cannot sin according to the Scriptures:

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1 John 3:9

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

<---Solo

 

[Solo]

<---Solo

:-D :-D There are many happy people in this world if ignorance is bliss!!!! Ignorance of truth, that is. :-D :-D

 

[Imagican]

I'm going to 'let this one go' for the sake of those that 'seem' to INSIST on the rudiments of this world.

But in CLOSING I WILL offer this:

There is NOT a MAN on this planet that is NOT your 'brother' Solo. If you DON'T KNOW this, then there is 'something MISSING' in your understanding. Once again you show that 'something' in your understanding IS missing. For Christ offered that when you have shunned the LEAST of those OF THIS WORLD, you have 'shunned HIM'.

And, those that DO NOT KNOW Christ ARE the one's that NEED our love and witness MORE than those that 'think' they do.

Your theology doesn't blend well with this 'truth'. For you continuously insist that ONLY those that 'believe as YOU' could POSSIBLY BE 'saved'. Ignoring EVERYTHING in the Word that contradicts this 'belief' of yours that YOU are able to discern WHO IS and WHO IS NOT saved. Much like the POPE, you have placed YOURSELF in a position of authority that you could NOT POSSIBLY possess.

Christ COULD have sinned BUT to BE the Messiah HE COULD NOT. And you didn't ANSWER my questions. You 'talked around them' instead. What is the difficulty with honesty Solo, that you would PURPOSELY ATTACK my post but IGNORE the questions asked?

I mean, if you have discernment to offer, if you have opinion or doctrine to state, how could I possibly accept ANYTHING that you have to say if YOUR behavior does NOT match what you say? You say that those 'born of God' CANNOT sin. Yet I ask IF YOU are a 'sinner' and you ignore the question. Prime indication that either A. you are NOT born again. or B. you ARE born again and the statement that you made concerning sin was MISINTERPRETED.

Solo, does the WORLD HATE YOU? Are YOU a sinner? Are YOU 'saved' by the 'grace of God'? Did Christ or GOD overcome sin? And DID Christ INDEED 'overcome' sin?

I will not expect an answer to these questions. Since it is OBVIOUS that it's more FUN for some to 'pat each other on the back' and attack that which they 'don't understand', I will leave you to your 'own'. But I offer these questions so that YOU may ponder them at your leisure.

And Solo, I will not mince words with you. For YOU seem to want to 'separate' yourself from 'others' in your doctrinal beliefs. Choosing to belittle those that do NOT agree with you instead of actually discussing the differences. But, we ARE brothers and sisters; EVERYONE of us. In Christ? I have met SO few that live the example offered that if THIS were what it TOOK to BE brothers and sisters, we would ALL be orphans.

blessings,

MEC

MEC

 

[Guest]

MEC - IF Christ COULD have sinned, but DID NOT - then are you suggesting that ANYNOE who "COULD" sin but DOES NOT - be the Messiah?

While not probable, what you are suggesting is POSSIBLE - that there could be others who DO NOT sin.

What I am suggesting is that Jesus DID NOT sin because He COULD NOT sin. Being TEMPTED to sin and actually SINNING are two seperate things. Jesus provides for us an example of how to OVERCOME sin, just in the very way that Jesus, as God, still prayed, etc. He provides an EXAMPLE for us to follow.

Yes - there is a HUMAN side to Christ, but there is ALSO the DEITY side as well - and they BOTH need to be expressed EQUALLY.

 

[Fnerb]

MEC - IF Christ COULD have sinned, but DID NOT - then are you suggesting that ANYNOE who "COULD" sin but DOES NOT - be the Messiah?

While not probable, what you are suggesting is POSSIBLE - that there could be others who DO NOT sin.

What I am suggesting is that Jesus DID NOT sin because He COULD NOT sin. Being TEMPTED to sin and actually SINNING are two seperate things. Jesus provides for us an example of how to OVERCOME sin, just in the very way that Jesus, as God, still prayed, etc. He provides an EXAMPLE for us to follow.

Yes - there is a HUMAN side to Christ, but there is ALSO the DEITY side as well - and they BOTH need to be expressed EQUALLY.

Very well said!

If any one of us could live without sin, we would have no need for Jesus Christ. Yet that is impossible as we are born into it and have not even the heart to seek him.

 

[Solo]

It seems that MEC cannot answer the Scripture of 1 John 3:9 that states that Jesus cannot sin, so he goes off on a tangent unrelated to the subject, once again.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1 John 3:9

 

[cyberjosh]

Jesus IS Our Savior THROUGH the Power of God. As God's REPRESENTATIVE of the Word, He was EMPOWERED to DO THE WILL of the Father.

So what then happens when Christ delivers up all his kingdom unto the Father for the Father's glory (1 Corinthians 15:28)? Does Jesus then become insignificant at this point and a mere worshiper of the Father like us?

 

[Imagican]

Alone,

I have offered my responses in bold and blue;

MEC - IF Christ COULD have sinned, but DID NOT - then are you suggesting that ANYNOE who "COULD" sin but DOES NOT - be the Messiah?

Absolutely NOT. For not a ONE Of us was WITH God previous to 'taking on the flesh'. Not a 'single one of us' was 'designed' to BE the messiah. And NOT A SINGLE ONE OF US is ABLE to 'live without sin'.
While not probable, what you are suggesting is POSSIBLE - that there could be others who DO NOT sin.

What I am suggesting is that Jesus DID NOT sin because He COULD NOT sin. Being TEMPTED to sin and actually SINNING are two seperate things. Jesus provides for us an example of how to OVERCOME sin, just in the very way that Jesus, as God, still prayed, etc. He provides an EXAMPLE for us to follow.

In order for Christ to OBEY the Will of the Father, there was NO sin committed. But the question is NOT whether or NOT Christ 'sinned', but COULD He have sinned.

And to STATE that Jesus prayers were Him simply 'acting' like He was praying in order to offer an example is REDICULOUS. Yes, He WAS our example to FOLLOW. But His prayers were 'genuine' and offered TO HIS GOD.

Yes - there is a HUMAN side to Christ, but there is ALSO the DEITY side as well - and they BOTH need to be expressed EQUALLY.

I accept this offering WHOLE-Heartedly. Jesus BEING The Son DOES portay deity. Sitting at the 'right hand of God' DOES show His status. But deity does NOT mean what MANY insist that it MUST. The Son of ANY 'powerful' entity is CERTAINLY inherently is offered a 'part' of his fathers throne. But the Son will NEVER BE the Father. They are certainly in the SAME family. A 'part' of the 'same', but NEVER one BEING the other.

Why do you suppose that we have been GIVEN all the examples that we have concerning FAMILY? The PLACE of the 'man' and the PLACE of the 'woman'? The PLACE of 'children'? Why do you suppose that we ARE what we are in relation to procreation and the ORDER of things? There is WISDOM involved with these things and PURPOSE and ORDER.

These things ARE as they ARE in order for US TO LEARN. We are NOT just 'random' beings. We WERE 'created' for a 'purpose'. And the ONLY way that we will ONE day acheive the understanding of this purpose is to LEARN from what we have been given.

There IS a 'reason' that Christ called HIMSELF the Son of God. There is a REASON that God called Christ His Son. And the reason is NOT SOME MYSTERY. It's as SIMPLE as the NAME SON INPLIES. Christ IS the Son of God. And BEING the Son, He openly stated that the Father IS greater than He. Plainly offering that He is NOT God Himself, for God IS the Father.
MEC