Submit to your (corrupt) governing authorities?

[Nicole L. Sattler]

Most of us know that there are some conspiracy theories out there about the U.S. government. I don't want to get into why (I think) they are true or not, but I just have a hypothetical question.

If they were true, would God want us to submit to our government? Even though they would not make us go against His word, they would be going against it themselves.

I have been wondering this for a few days now, and it has been driving me a bit crazy... haha.

 

[mcgyver]

That is a great question! It's also one to which I've given much thought and study...so, FWIW:

We know that both Romans 13 and 1Peter 13-17 command us to be in submission and obedient to government authorities. Quite stunning when one considers that 1 Peter was written at the start of the persecutions by Nero.

But then again, we also see occasions when folks were not obedient to government authority...and were blessed for it.

In the book of Daniel...Shadrach, Meshach, Abed-Nego refused the king's command and were delivered out of a fiery furnace. Daniel refused to obey the king's law and was delivered out of the lion's den.

Given that...I think that the answer is: In general we as Christians are to be obedient to the laws and authorities of the land, except in such cases where obedience would cause us to either blaspheme or disobey God's "higher moral law".

For example: In NAZI Germany, I don't think that those who disobeyed the directive to turn Jews over to the Gestapo (instead protecting them), were sinning in spite of the fact that they were disobeying Hitler's directive. To turn the Jews over to the government would be to give them over to murder.

Another example is found in the early church. Countless Christians were martyred when they refused to offer a pinch of incense or goblet of wine to the bust of Caesar, as was required under Roman law. (Both actions were in fact acknowledging the divinity of Caesar, and was a "loyalty" test).

The other question that of course arises is Taxes...do we give taxes knowing that they go to fund unGodly pursuits?

Jesus paid His taxes...and the Roman government was anything but Godly.

Anyway...short answer to a deep subject. :p

 

[Nicole L. Sattler]

That is a great question! It's also one to which I've given much thought and study...so, FWIW:

We know that both Romans 13 and 1Peter 13-17 command us to be in submission and obedient to government authorities. Quite stunning when one considers that 1 Peter was written at the start of the persecutions by Nero.

But then again, we also see occasions when folks were not obedient to government authority...and were blessed for it.

In the book of Daniel...Shadrach, Meshach, Abed-Nego refused the king's command and were delivered out of a fiery furnace. Daniel refused to obey the king's law and was delivered out of the lion's den.

Given that...I think that the answer is: In general we as Christians are to be obedient to the laws and authorities of the land, except in such cases where obedience would cause us to either blaspheme or disobey God's "higher moral law".

For example: In NAZI Germany, I don't think that those who disobeyed the directive to turn Jews over to the Gestapo (instead protecting them), were sinning in spite of the fact that they were disobeying Hitler's directive. To turn the Jews over to the government would be to give them over to murder.

Another example is found in the early church. Countless Christians were martyred when they refused to offer a pinch of incense or goblet of wine to the bust of Caesar, as was required under Roman law. (Both actions were in fact acknowledging the divinity of Caesar, and was a "loyalty" test).

The other question that of course arises is Taxes...do we give taxes knowing that they go to fund unGodly pursuits?

Jesus paid His taxes...and the Roman government was anything but Godly.

Anyway...short answer to a deep subject. :p

Great answer and examples!

Let's say our government really uses economic hitmen (they go to other countries to corrupt their leaders. If a leader doesn't do what is asked of them, they are murdered).

Would we be expected to submit to a government that utilizes murder to move itself to the top?

(I don't know if the government really has economic hit men, but one "former hitman" came forward in a documentary and even wrote a book I think. I don't know why he would come forward to tell lies... Just my thought.)

 

[Pizzaguy]

I don't know why he would come forward to tell lies.

Good lies sell books - books make money and can make a name for the author.

 

[mcgyver]

Great answer and examples!

Let's say our government really uses economic hitmen (they go to other countries to corrupt their leaders. If a leader doesn't do what is asked of them, they are murdered).

Would we be expected to submit to a government that utilizes murder to move itself to the top?

(I don't know if the government really has economic hit men, but one "former hitman" came forward in a documentary and even wrote a book I think. I don't know why he would come forward to tell lies... Just my thought.)

Well, once again we can look to ancient Rome and the lives and times of the Apostles for the answer, IMO.

Rome raised up and deposed "puppet" kings at will. Assassination was not something that was unknown to Caesar, for sure!

They also conquered with the sword some folks that really weren't a threat to Rome (along with many that were) simply to expand their (Roman) borders. Pax Romana was a peace enforced by the "iron heel" of the legions.

Yet in all this, both Paul and Peter by the Spirit wrote telling us to be "good citizens"...and Paul was in fact a free-born Roman citizen, and Peter the citizen of a conquered Roman province.

Hope that helps some.

 

[Nicole L. Sattler]

Good lies sell books - books make money and can make a name for the author.

Could be, but it seems he did work for the government and his stories did match up with the murders of other leaders.

But that really isn't my point. If it were true, would we be expected to submit to a government like that?


I know it could all be a scam, but you really never know. If it is true, I sure would be afraid now if I were him.

[video=youtube;0CofEbxtIxI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CofEbxtIxI&feature=related[/video]

Here is a full interview - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTbdnNgqfs8

 

[Nicole L. Sattler]

Well, once again we can look to ancient Rome and the lives and times of the Apostles for the answer, IMO.

Rome raised up and deposed "puppet" kings at will. Assassination was not something that was unknown to Caesar, for sure!

They also conquered with the sword some folks that really weren't a threat to Rome (along with many that were) simply to expand their (Roman) borders. Pax Romana was a peace enforced by the "iron heel" of the legions.

Yet in all this, both Paul and Peter by the Spirit wrote telling us to be "good citizens"...and Paul was in fact a free-born Roman citizen, and Peter the citizen of a conquered Roman province.

Hope that helps some.

Great point. Yes, that does help a lot. Thank you! :D

 

[mcgyver]

You are so very welcome...glad I could help.

 

[Drew]

Given that...I think that the answer is: In general we as Christians are to be obedient to the laws and authorities of the land, except in such cases where obedience would cause us to either blaspheme or disobey God's "higher moral law".

I agree entirely. If the law tells you to drive 55 max, then obey that law.

But if the law tells you to kneel and offer fealty to a king other than Jesus, then do not.

 

[Guap]

I agree entirely. If the law tells you to drive 55 max, then obey that law.

But if the law tells you to kneel and offer fealty to a king other than Jesus, then do not.

Where does that leave the British? And Australians ... and New Zealanders ... not sure who else actually has Elizabeth as their Sovereign these days.

 

[mcgyver]

Where does that leave the British? And Australians ... and New Zealanders ... not sure who else actually has Elizabeth as their Sovereign these days.

I should think in the same place...they all have laws governing the citizenry, correct?