Submit to your Government -All Authorities are appointed by God

[Classik]

[size="+2"]Submit to your Government -All Authorities are appointed by God[/size]


Roman 13:1-7 NKJV

1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.
2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.
4 For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.
5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience' sake.
6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God's ministers attending continually to this very thing.
7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.

I have severally struggled with this chapter, and I think, I have two questions from this chapter:

A.)[size="+2"] Verse one seems to suggest we do not need to fight political wars in order to make it to a political seat, or place of authority. (King David did not have to struggle - he was the least - yet he was chosen).

Many politicians commit all sorts of 'funny things' which at times help them get to that political position. Some eliminate their political opponents, some rig elections - they do all sorts of things (I don't mean all are bad)

Do we need to battle for such political posts? Why do people fight tooth and nail for political positions? Is it right to say, his effort (including cheating, rigging election etc) and 'God' gave him that political position?[/size]

B.) [size="+2"]Is it right to blame our leaders when we feel and know they have done the wrong thing? Verse 1 tells us that God puts them there.

I know God can use a bad leader to bring a change (or for whatever reason) or send His message across

Our leaders are human beings like us - they are not without mistakes. However, do we need to always subject to them, doing exactly as they say?[/size]


And can we relate the chapter above to:

[size="+2"]Proverbs 29:2 NKJV[/size]

[size="+2"]When the righteous are in authority, the peoplerejoice;
But when a wicked man rules, the people groan.[/size]

 

[felix]

Classik, Daniel and the 3 men thrown into fire did not submit to the Babylonian King nor does the Hebrew mid-wives submitted to Pharaoh in Exodus. You are to submit 'only' when it does not contract the Word of God or His scriptures.

 

[reba]

Paul made use of the government when needed. He used the Roman law to confound those after him and to protect himself.
David was chosen but David struggled.

 

[Potluck]

Submitting to the law of the land is one thing. Objecting to it through our right of free speech or voting against it is another.
Submission doesn't mean I have to shut up about it or stop supporting change. I also have the rights to object and vote against a bill/proposal before being made law.
More often than not the bible is quoted concerning this only when the issue is political anyway in an attempt to put a muzzle on believers who object.

 

[TonkaTim]

Also think about - Roman 13:1-7 NKJV
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works,
5 Therefore you must be subject, .... but also for conscience' sake.

What happens when the authorities become a "terror to good works"?

Is one commanded to obey? or does "conscience" apply?

This Christian principle is the foundation for the Declaration of Independence and why it lays out the "terror to good works" - "long train of abuses and usurpations" as the reasons necessary to declare independence.
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/declare.asp

We, therefore, the representatives of the United States of America, in General Congress assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the name and by the authority of the good people of these colonies solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of right ought to be, FREE AND INDEPENDENT STATES; that they are absolved from all allegiance to the British crown and that all political connection between them and the state of Great Britain is, and ought to be, totally dissolved; and that, as free and independent states, they have full power to levy war, conclude peace, contract alliances, establish commerce, and do all other acts and things which independent states may of right do. And for the support of this declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor.

 

[Classik]

This is amazing, TonkaTim
I will take plent if time and go through this and the link once again. Amazing.

I'd nearly said, 'Welcome to the Forume' but when I checked your 'Join Date' I kind of.... :dunno :shocked

 

[Igloo]

It's also worthy of note that Jesus didn't follow all the laws/customs put forth by the pharisees and etc (like having to wash ur hands before you eat). Jesus rebuked the Pharisees on more than one occasion for making destructive or useless laws, or sometimes even for holding a valid law as more important than saving a human being (if your sheep or mule fell in a well on the Sabbath, would you not go and get it out?). We aren't called to be walked all over by our government; we are called to be righeous, even if it means replacing a corrupt government with a better one if necessary. Remember, government like we have in America is merely a set of choices we have made to have those people in place. We could easily choose to have a king one day and a congress the next. God's chosen government could rest on the shoulders of the very group that is working to overthrow a current government. Israel chose to have a king, and God was not pleased with this, because in so doing, they were rejecting the fact that they already had a king (God).

 

[Classik]

It's also worthy of note that Jesus didn't follow all the laws/customs put forth by the pharisees and etc (like having to wash ur hands before you eat). Jesus rebuked the Pharisees on more than one occasion for making destructive or useless laws, or sometimes even for holding a valid law as more important than saving a human being (if your sheep or mule fell in a well on the Sabbath, would you not go and get it out?). We aren't called to be walked all over by our government; we are called to be righeous, even if it means replacing a corrupt government with a better one if necessary. Remember, government like we have in America is merely a set of choices we have made to have those people in place. We could easily choose to have a king one day and a congress the next. God's chosen government could rest on the shoulders of the very group that is working to overthrow a current government. Israel chose to have a king, and God was not pleased with this, because in so doing, they were rejecting the fact that they already had a king (God).

Very Brilliant

We aren't called to be walked all over by our government; we are called to be righeous, even if it means replacing a corrupt government with a better one if necessary

Remember, government like we have in America is merely a set of choices we have made to have those people in place. We could easily choose to have a king one day and a congress the next.

A king? Why not!?:D

 

[delivermejesus]

Acts 4:18 And they called them, and commanded them not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus. 19 But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye. 20 For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard.

 

[jasoncran]

a revolution? the colonists did that once.

hmm, while i understand why they did that, but war is seldom black and white.

 

[Potluck]

Remember, government like we have in America is merely a set of choices we have made to have those people in place. We could easily choose to have a king one day and a congress the next.

A king? Why not!?:D

As I recall the Jews asked for a king. I don't remember the entire story but I think there was something well, not quite right with the request.

Anyway,
We don't want a king. We declared and fought for our independence from King George III in the first place.

 

[Classik]

As I recall the Jews asked for a king. I don't remember the entire story but I think there was something well, not quite right with the request.

Anyway,
We don't want a king. We declared and fought for our independence from King George III in the first place.

LOL! Scared?

 

[jasoncran]

classic study american history.

we in our constitution declare nobility and titles as being irrevalant. we didnt want person being born with more rights simply by birth.

a king and all the nobles means lordship and also slaves. 666 alludes to that very thing that solomon did and that is what he did. he made isreal to suffer.

 

[Classik]

classic study american history.

we in our constitution declare nobility and titles as being irrevalant. we didnt want person being born with more rights simply by birth.

a king and all the nobles means lordship and also slaves. 666 alludes to that very thing that solomon did and that is what he did. he made isreal to suffer.

Oh yeah! Jasoncran - Israel really suffererd. God was never happy about this kingship thing. He knew Israel was going to ask for a king.


A democratic government is quite astonishing - and here you don't shut your mouth. Look your President in the face and tell him/her - 'that's not the way. You don't dare try it in a Millitary regime - unless that 'common' man /individual insane.

And it would be a suicidal attempt to look a king in the face and tell him, 'You suck'.:bigfrown

But, the irony is 'Not all about Democracy is "drinking milk and eating bread"' I think democracy seems to have more negative effect than the other two (from christian pov):

My volition! What volition? Gay marriage! Ethical defects! Abortion! Majority interest - not minority interest!...

I love democracy, though...but I've never been under... *long live king*

 

[jasoncran]

isreal choose a king over god and that is what potluck meant.

 

[Classik]

isreal choose a king over god and that is what potluck meant.

Yeah - Israel chose a King over God!
Yet, our practice today has its negative side.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

"Verse one seems to suggest we do not need to fight political wars in order to make it to a political seat, or place of authority."

There's a "Process" that one has to GO THROUGH (at least here in the States), and "Dues to be paid" before one is seen as a "viable candidate" that others will "get behind", and support. Whether it's a "FIGHT" or not is related to the attitude of the person seeking the office, and the political system that he's trying to be part of.

Martin Luther had to "FIGHT" for HIS "position of authority" - because that was the situation God threw Him into.

"Why do people fight tooth and nail for political positions?"

Some folks have a REAL LUST for power - simple as that.

"Is it right to say, his effort (including cheating, rigging election etc) and 'God' gave him that political position?"

I don't question the Bible when it states that people are PLACED in their positions by God. What THEY did to get there is unimportant to the issue - they'll be "Judged" for that later. God's JUDGEMENT on a nation can be when he gives them the leadership they DESERVE, instead of leadership that is a blessing. The United States as a whole is trying DESPERATELY to ERASE the knowledge of God from our society. How do we EXPECT God to act in that situation???? How did he act toward Israel when they did the same thing??

1 Chr 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

"Is it right to blame our leaders when we feel and know they have done the wrong thing? Verse 1 tells us that God puts them there."

It's O.K. to criticize a leader to acting "Sinfully" (Or just being STUPID). But we're told to PRAY FOR our governmental leadership, and the Government that PAUL told the Christians of HIS day to pray for was a WHOLE LOT worse than any one we've ever had here in the 'States.

Note: "Submitting" to the Government doesn't necessarily mean being blindly "Obedient" to it. The Disciples "Submitted" to the Jewish authorities (allowed the authorities to arrest and discipline them), but WERE NOT "Obedient" to them. The went right back out and preached JESUS after they were told NOT to.