Sunday School/Small Group

[Jethro Bodine]

I'm having a mini-flashback to a small group I was in, years ago.

What I've found is that people who have experienced a true, Biblical meeting of the saints never forget it, and then find it hard to go back to the church's sacred cow style of meeting.

Yea, I know what you mean. I've been there, and I've been the 'enthusiastic' one too.

But, most of the time it was just because I enjoyed the discussion and no one else wanted to talk. I learned to say what I had to say, then let it go for someone else. What always happened was no one else would say anything, and the leader would just continue on with his train of though.

My experience, too, exactly.

t might be hard to start (because like you said sometimes in a new group people stay quiet) but once it's moving the group of people might just blossom.

The key is for the leader to present his material in a question and answer format. The leader keeps an outline of the flow of where he wants to go and he crafts a series of questions for the people to chime in on, then he wraps the time of inquirering up with Biblical support. Then on to the next question concerning the topic. The gifted part comes in when someone strays off the subject too far. It's a true skill and gift to be able to pull what people say back to what is being discussed. I have found that skill is actually the key to knowing if someone can indeed lead a group in the Biblical pattern and not just deliver a speech. Not knocking speeches. I would sit absolutely silent and captive if a Dr. Jeremiah strolled up to the pulpit and wanted to deliver a speech. Not trying to be mean, but that kind of ability to hold whole congregations spell bound with what you're saying is pretty hard to find in churches these days. The answer, IMO, is the small group question and answer way of teaching the Bible.

he pastor would come too, but in that church there were enough retired ministers and outspoken people that there didn't feel like there was a distinct leader for the group.

This concept won't work if there is no one appointed leader of the group. And not only that, but an annointed leader of the group, not just someone leading from the group whose turn it is this week to lead. Don't work. Not everyone is gifted to lead a Biblical meeting of the saints.

If you can start something like your idea for a small group kind of thing it would be great for the community to get engaged in a subject.

I've noticed most Christians like meetings where they can share and learn. But they won't abandon the sacred cow of the church (our traditional Sunday morning service style) in favor of what even they know in their heart is what works best. The best you'll get out of them is a mid week meeting.....if it fits in with what they're doing. Those mid week meetings always end up being optional while the unBiblical Sunday morning meeting is honored and revered and is not allowed to be missed except under extraordinary circumstances. From what I've gleaned, Justin Martyr is to blame for the way things are in the church.

Leaving up the SS teacher to decide what subjects to cover as well as what info to present seems fraught with danger to teach things outside of denominational/Christian beliefs/theology unless the teachers were well versed.

There is always that risk.....but that's why Paul says that others in the group should weigh carefully what is being said.

I see some real benefits in generating participants interest

If only pastors knew that this how you motivate your people to be and do what you want them to be and do.....teach 'em the Bible!

(much SS curicullum seems written for 3rd graders)

I'm going to be brutally honest here.....no leader should be relying on other prepared material to present. He should be gifted to the point that he can craft his own annointed and Spirit-led teachings. Outside material prepared by others can used for the leaders own personal growth and inspiration time. The best teachers don't relay others teachings, they get inspired by other's teachings and then present them from their own heart, not out of someone else's textbook.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

,
You don't feel, perhaps, that both could be utilized? I really do like a well prepared and delivered Sunday sermon that usually seems to leave more of an impression on me than many of out in-home Wednesday meetings where often ten or more people seem to be vying for a portion of the couple of hours we have there.

Both? Not if possible, and I think it's ENTIRELY possible. We honestly do not need the churches sacred cow meeting.

The Wednesday meeting you are referring to above is one that is not being properly led. If it was you'd have a far different opinion about it. I'm impressed by the fact that you said 'couple of hours'. That's awesome, because I've found it's pretty much a waste of time to not spend at minimum 1 1/2 hours in the kind of Biblical meeting of the saints I'm talking about. The main reason being, that meeting will include praise and worship.....at the end of the meeting when everyone is pumped up in the Spirit by what God has taught them. And prayer will be a part of it too....not marathon sessions of prayer, just time enough to express what's bubbling up in the hearts of the people present AFTER being edifying in the Spirit by what God is revealing in the group. The key being, ALL of this is done in the careful and anointed guidance of God's pastor and elders in that group.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The sad part of this is what I and others are saying will fall on deaf ears because of a misguided reverence for the Sunday morning style of worship we think God himself told us to do. That's why I gave up the vision. I had hoped this could be a new church movement in America. Taint gonna happen. Gotta just settle for our mid week Bible studies most of which are being conducted in a not so effective way. Tradition is the enemy of the church. So many people think Protestantism is the way it is because God made it this way.

 

[Free]

The sad part of this is what I and others are saying will fall on deaf ears because of a misguided reverence for the Sunday morning style of worship we think God himself told us to do. That's why I gave up the vision. I had hoped this could be a new church movement in America. Taint gonna happen. Gotta just settle for our mid week Bible studies most of which are being conducted in a not so effective way. Tradition is the enemy of the church. So many people think Protestantism is the way it is because God made it this way.

Of course when anyone disagrees with you they're the ones that are misguided.

Have you considered the reasons for not doing church that way? Firstly, we see the hierarchical structure of the church in the NT. Secondly, it further fractures the church when we are told to seek unity. Thirdly, not everyone is called and gifted to teach. Fourthly, the likelihood of error being taught would be exponential. Just look at these forums; Charles Russel comes to mind also.

Those are just some quick thoughts. Note that I am not saying churches are free from error. But there are good reasons for why things are done the way they are.

If all one has access to is a small group Bible Study, then that is fine. However, they should use proper study material written by a respected pastor or theologian, and be approved by the church leadership where applicable. And a small group should not, when possible, replace a church gathering; it should supplement it.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Of course when anyone disagrees with you they're the ones that are misguided.

Have you considered the reasons for not doing church that way? Firstly, we see the hierarchical structure of the church in the NT. Secondly, it further fractures the church when we are told to seek unity. Thirdly, not everyone is called and gifted to teach. Fourthly, the likelihood of error being taught would be exponential. Just look at these forums; Charles Russel comes to mind also.

Those are just some quick thoughts. Note that I am not saying churches are free from error. But there are good reasons for why things are done the way they are.

If all one has access to is a small group Bible Study, then that is fine. However, they should use proper study material written by a respected pastor or theologian, and be approved by the church leadership where applicable. And a small group should not, when possible, replace a church gathering; it should supplement it.

Yeah, letting someone teach simply because they believe the Spirit gave them that gift is really asking for trouble. Many people have been led astray by well meaning 'teachers'.......

 

[Nathan]

Not to try and drag this off topic, but since its being talked about.....

Church today is nothing like the NT church. We have made it 'fit' our image of what we 'want' to see in the NT, but it is simply all just an offshoot of the early Catholic Church ways.

The early Catholic Church adopted many of its "traditions" from the Greek Theatrical productions. Our modern "services" are much like them.

Hey, if the Gospel is preached so be it. But its a far cry from NT church gatherings. Home churches now days are simply smaller sized reproductions.

An interesting read is "Pagan Christianity". Whats interesting is they promote these 'home churches' as a way out of the 'tradition'. But at least they do shed light into how we arrived at the point we are today.

 

[Free]

Not to try and drag this off topic, but since its being talked about.....

Church today is nothing like the NT church. We have made it 'fit' our image of what we 'want' to see in the NT, but it is simply all just an offshoot of the early Catholic Church ways.

The early Catholic Church adopted many of its "traditions" from the Greek Theatrical productions. Our modern "services" are much like them.

Hey, if the Gospel is preached so be it. But its a far cry from NT church gatherings. Home churches now days are simply smaller sized reproductions.

An interesting read is "Pagan Christianity". Whats interesting is they promote these 'home churches' as a way out of the 'tradition'. But at least they do shed light into how we arrived at the point we are today.

Do you think it has anything to do with Judaism and what went on in the synagogues? It is worth pointing out that the NT churches being in homes is descriptive, not prescriptive.

 

[ezra]

,
You don't feel, perhaps, that both could be utilized? I really do like a well prepared and delivered Sunday sermon that usually seems to leave more of an impression on me than many of out in-home Wednesday meetings where often ten or more people seem to be vying for a portion of the couple of hours we have there.

the preacher must have his time in the pulpit period . he is the Sheppard of the flock. Sunday school i prefer open discussion

 

[ezra]

so curious how does one have the perfect church service

 

[Nathan]

Do you think it has anything to do with Judaism and what went on in the synagogues? It is worth pointing out that the NT churches being in homes is descriptive, not prescriptive.

I agree, descriptive.

It might have been synagogues. But I think the Greek influence was due to the "church" wanting to bring in people. Same as when they took on the customs of the holidays and 'changed' them to fit a Christian perspective.

May have been under good intentions, but it was not a good thing.

 

[dirtfarmer]

dirtfarmer here

Some things to think about. Where is scripture is it stated that the lost, unbeliever, is to be invited to "church" to be saved? My understanding for the assembling of the body of Christ is for edification, building up the believer, of the body of Christ. We are to "win the lost" in the highways and byways by the manner of life that we live before them. Where do we find that "the church doors are to be opened for membership in the church?"

Which is more powerful as a witness: "If you died tonight where would you spend eternity". How does this bring conviction of the Holy Spirit? Or when trials and tribulations come and we still have joy, even though we are struggling with hardships, or even the loss of a loved one. We never lose our ability to praise God, and never curse and complain, saying" If I didn't have bad luck, I wouldn't have any luck at all". Can those that we are around every day see a difference between us and those that we work with, or do they just hear us complain about how long the preacher preached, and he wasn't even correct on what he preached. When those that we see in everyday life begin to struggle and have problems, were we an example for them so the will begin to ask, "How do you do it". Then the door of opportunity to tell of Christ and his work on the cross for mankind can be expressed and received with receptive ears and hearts

 

[ezra]

Some things to think about. Where is scripture is it stated that the lost, unbeliever, is to be invited to "church" to be saved? My understanding for the assembling of the body of Christ is for edification, building up the believer, of the body of Christ. We are to "win the lost" in the highways and byways by the manner of life that we live before them. Where do we find that "the church doors are to be opened for membership in the church?"

jesus said And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled. the way we live is one way the other way is get them in Church sounds me to me like there might be some stay at home church me and my few in my pew . the church is a sanctuary a safe haven where else for the lost to go? the local tavern have a few beers

 

[Free]

May have been under good intentions, but it was not a good thing.

Why not?

 

[dirtfarmer]

jesus said And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled. the way we live is one way the other way is get them in Church sounds me to me like there might be some stay at home church me and my few in my pew . the church is a sanctuary a safe haven where else for the lost to go? the local tavern have a few beers

hello ezra, dirtfarmer here

Luke 14:23, " And the lord said unto the servant, Go into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled." The word "compel" : Greek anagkazo - to necessitate, compel, drive to, constrain, whether by force or threat. Is that what you are implying, that we use force or threat to fill the church building with unsaved people?

What scripture tells us that the church is " a sanctuary, a safe haven for the lost"? I believe that "the Church" is the body of Christ" not "a safe haven for the lost".

 

[JohnDB]

I know that the Baptists have several literature series.
The "Bible Book" and "Life Works"

These cover the entire Bible in 7 & 9 years respectively...There's a newer one that does it in 13-14?

Where I'd like to say that church is the place for deep Bible study...It isn't. It's for scratching the surface of scripture...No matter how long the small group leader or pastor or whoever talks about a passage.

They preach morality...Not Hermeneutics or the fruits thereof.
If you put the real school in Sunday School classes people get bored. And some never do their homework. For real teaching...A minimum of 6 hours of preparation goes into every hour of teaching. 12 is usually better. Today the lessons are prepared and proscribed. No homework necessary.

 

[ezra]

hello ezra, dirtfarmer here

Luke 14:23, " And the lord said unto the servant, Go into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled." The word "compel" : Greek anagkazo - to necessitate, compel, drive to, constrain, whether by force or threat. Is that what you are implying, that we use force or threat to fill the church building with unsaved people?

What scripture tells us that the church is " a sanctuary, a safe haven for the lost"? I believe that "the Church" is the body of Christ" not "a safe haven for the lost".

since you understand the church is the body of christ. which has many member and at Antioch. the started assembling together know as Christians. the building offers a place to meet. all through the bible they assembled for a meeting . as per " he word "compel" : Greek anagkazo - to necessitate, compel, drive to, constrain, whether by force or threat. " do you think Christ stood for force? you have just took christ words and made him look like a gang lady.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Luke 14:23, " And the lord said unto the servant, Go into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled." The word "compel" : Greek anagkazo - to necessitate, compel, drive to, constrain, whether by force or threat. Is that what you are implying, that we use force or threat to fill the church building with unsaved people?

It can also mean by entreaties (pleading) and given the context of the parable that is most likely the meaning of the word in scripture.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I had hoped to one day recruit a retired pastor who could appreciate the vision of having church in a more open format in accordance with Paul's counsel to the Corinthian church. A retired pastor who doesn't have extraordinary financial needs that require him to have a large church with many members, or require him to be part of a denomination. And a retired pastor with the gift of teaching, particularly. We'd meet in a small rented building somewhere highly visible to the community. Then when it grew beyond a number conducive to the open church concept split off into another church plant in the community, or a nearby community. Then they would do the same. And, eventually, the concept would spread throughout whole regions as Christians see the value of the concept.

This new concept would not uproot the status quo traditional church. They don't need to cease their existence. This is not about creating trouble. It's about feeding the people of God. And not those who simply want to check the box next to 'Went to Church Sunday', but rather those who long and thirst for the richness of a relationship with Christ.

But I know now it's not going to happen on a large scale. Tradition is too entrenched in America's Christians. But I know that's not the only problem. People just got it in there heads about things and that's just not going to change......not without a complete upending of the comfort zone we Christians find ourselves in at this time in church history in the U.S.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I know that the Baptists have several literature series.
The "Bible Book" and "Life Works"

These cover the entire Bible in 7 & 9 years respectively...There's a newer one that does it in 13-14?

Where I'd like to say that church is the place for deep Bible study...It isn't. It's for scratching the surface of scripture...No matter how long the small group leader or pastor or whoever talks about a passage.

They preach morality...Not Hermeneutics or the fruits thereof.
If you put the real school in Sunday School classes people get bored. And some never do their homework. For real teaching...A minimum of 6 hours of preparation goes into every hour of teaching. 12 is usually better. Today the lessons are prepared and proscribed. No homework necessary.

I learned most of what I know today by reading the Bible for 10-20 minutes a day for two years sitting in my car at lunch at work. That, coupled with sitting under a pastor, mentor, father in the faith who employed the open church concept in his small fellowship, I grew up fast in the faith. To this day it is still the most memorable time of my Christian life. Then, after he died, it was back into the system of traditional churches....which was like going back out into the desert to wither. But a person will only understand the value of such a system if/when they can ever experience the open church concept, maintained and guarded, so as not to be chaotic, by an anointed, gifted pastor and an elder body.

 

[Nathan]

Why not?

As dirtfarmer alluded to, the church is for believers - not unbelievers. Sounds harsh, but its true.

1 Corinthians 5:11-13
But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”

The church is not a safe haven for sinners trying to "test the waters of Christianity", it is a safe haven for believers. Who then go out and preach the gospel, sowing seeds. Then, we should bring in the new babes in Christ and disciple them inside the church.

The church took on the 'spectator' role, just like the Greek theaters used to be.