Sunday School/Small Group

[Nathan]

I know that the Baptists have several literature series.
The "Bible Book" and "Life Works"

These cover the entire Bible in 7 & 9 years respectively...There's a newer one that does it in 13-14?

Where I'd like to say that church is the place for deep Bible study...It isn't. It's for scratching the surface of scripture...No matter how long the small group leader or pastor or whoever talks about a passage.

They preach morality...Not Hermeneutics or the fruits thereof.
If you put the real school in Sunday School classes people get bored. And some never do their homework. For real teaching...A minimum of 6 hours of preparation goes into every hour of teaching. 12 is usually better. Today the lessons are prepared and proscribed. No homework necessary.

At one time I was "allowed" to teach sunday school in our church. I tried to explain to the group that you can actually read most of the NT books in under 30 mins. Some even take just a few(Jude). OT books are a different story of course, but they still could be read in a short amount of time. I read a lot of Job this morning.

I think that just regular "meetings" of the church should be for the encouragement of each other and worship of God. The smaller groups are where deep study comes into play.

My thoughts definitely are for the small group type meetings.

 

[Free]

As dirtfarmer alluded to, the church is for believers - not unbelievers. Sounds harsh, but its true.

1 Corinthians 5:11-13
But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”

The church is not a safe haven for sinners trying to "test the waters of Christianity", it is a safe haven for believers. Who then go out and preach the gospel, sowing seeds. Then, we should bring in the new babes in Christ and disciple them inside the church.

The church took on the 'spectator' role, just like the Greek theaters used to be.

Well, the Church is the body of believers, not the building. And what is being spoken of in that passage is membership in the Church, not merely attending a church service. Note that the context in verse 11 shows that Paul is here speaking of someone "who bears the name of brother." This is about those who are members of the church and claim to be believers but live an openly sinful lifestyle--true believers are not to even be seen eating with such a person so as to imply that such behavior as acceptable for a believer. It has nothing to do with unbelievers coming into a church building and attending a church service.

 

[Nathan]

Well, the Church is the body of believers, not the building. And what is being spoken of in that passage is membership in the Church, not merely attending a church service. Note that the context in verse 11 shows that Paul is here speaking of someone "who bears the name of brother." This is about those who are members of the church and claim to be believers but live an openly sinful lifestyle--true believers are not to even be seen eating with such a person so as to imply that such behavior as acceptable for a believer. It has nothing to do with unbelievers coming into a church building and attending a church service.

I see it the exact opposite.

Jesus ate with sinners. Mingled with them. I believe we are to do the same thing. But when He was teaching His disciples, He often took them to places where they could be alone. I think that when we are gathered together for the purpose of learning/discipleship, then its good to be with just the people of "like mind" - in Christ.

I am not saying that there should not be times when the Gospel is preached in the hearing of sinners. Of course that should take place. Often Jesus did the same. The disciples went to the Synagogues and did such.

 

[WIP]

I see it the exact opposite.

Jesus ate with sinners. Mingled with them. I believe we are to do the same thing. But when He was teaching His disciples, He often took them to places where they could be alone. I think that when we are gathered together for the purpose of learning/discipleship, then its good to be with just the people of "like mind" - in Christ.

I am not saying that there should not be times when the Gospel is preached in the hearing of sinners. Of course that should take place. Often Jesus did the same. The disciples went to the Synagogues and did such.

Matthew 4:23-25 NKJV Recorded after he called the first four of His disciples. It might be safe to assume those disciples were among those being taught.
And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease among the people. Then His fame went throughout all Syria; and they brought to Him all sick people who were afflicted with various diseases and torments, and those who were demon-possessed, epileptics, and paralytics; and He healed them. Great multitudes followed Him—from Galilee, and from Decapolis, Jerusalem, Judea, and beyond the Jordan.

Matthew 5-7 Are you saying His entire sermon on the mount was not intended to be taught to His disciples along with the multitudes?

 

[WIP]

As dirtfarmer alluded to, the church is for believers - not unbelievers. Sounds harsh, but its true.

1 Corinthians 5:11-13
But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”

The church is not a safe haven for sinners trying to "test the waters of Christianity", it is a safe haven for believers. Who then go out and preach the gospel, sowing seeds. Then, we should bring in the new babes in Christ and disciple them inside the church.

The church took on the 'spectator' role, just like the Greek theaters used to be.

Yes, Paul instructs us not to associate with those "in the Church", as in brother, guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler, etc. The church (small c) to a believer could be literally all of humankind. Since when does a church require a building? Jesus taught out in the open, not just behind closed doors.

 

[Nathan]

Matthew 4:23-25 NKJV Recorded after he called the first four of His disciples. It might be safe to assume those disciples were among those being taught.
And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease among the people. Then His fame went throughout all Syria; and they brought to Him all sick people who were afflicted with various diseases and torments, and those who were demon-possessed, epileptics, and paralytics; and He healed them. Great multitudes followed Him—from Galilee, and from Decapolis, Jerusalem, Judea, and beyond the Jordan.

Matthew 5-7 Are you saying His entire sermon on the mount was not intended to be taught to His disciples along with the multitudes?

This was before He 'set up'(not sure if thats the best word) the Church. The key to understanding it is that Jesus was here to preach the Gospel. Yes, He did teach some more deeper truths, but when ministering to the crowds it was all about the Gospel.

I think its great to have 'services' where all manner of people are brought into the 'church' building and then preached the gospel. I just think that when it comes to theological teaching it should be the body of Christ. The one who is not in Christ cannot(not may not) understand such things.

 

[Nathan]

Yes, Paul instructs us not to associate with those "in the Church", as in brother, guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler, etc. The church (small c) to a believer could be literally all of humankind. Since when does a church require a building? Jesus taught out in the open, not just behind closed doors.

Right. I agree. I am just saying when it comes to the body of Christ coming together to fellowship(which means to hold things in common) it is not going to be 'fellowship' if you are doing so with people outside of Christ. You may fellowship in a fleshly way(which is not bad to talk about the latest things going on and such), but you cannot fellowship with unbelievers about the things of God. They are not a part of the body.

 

[civilwarbuff]

As dirtfarmer alluded to, the church is for believers - not unbelievers. Sounds harsh, but its true.

1 Corinthians 5:11-13
But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”

The church is not a safe haven for sinners trying to "test the waters of Christianity", it is a safe haven for believers. Who then go out and preach the gospel, sowing seeds. Then, we should bring in the new babes in Christ and disciple them inside the church.

The church took on the 'spectator' role, just like the Greek theaters used to be.

It is a hospital for sinners; most of us are in the ICU.......

 

[civilwarbuff]

Right. I agree. I am just saying when it comes to the body of Christ coming together to fellowship(which means to hold things in common) it is not going to be 'fellowship' if you are doing so with people outside of Christ. You may fellowship in a fleshly way(which is not bad to talk about the latest things going on and such), but you cannot fellowship with unbelievers about the things of God. They are not a part of the body.

Mark 2
17 When Jesus heard it, he said unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

 

[JohnDB]

It is a hospital for sinners; most of us are in the ICU.......

And refusing treatment.

 

[dirtfarmer]

dirtfarmer here

I understand scripture as I have been guided by the Holy Spirit to compare scripture with scripture. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were things that were taught before Jesus Christ was crucified and before the establishment of " The Church". The apostles were looking for the kingdom that was promised in the old testament; how do I know this: Acts1:6, " When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel." This question was asked after he had received his glorified resurrected body as it was revealed in Luke 24:36-43. They didn't understand " Church"- the body of Christ.

When anyone takes scripture written to or about the "promised kingdom" and tries to apply it to the body of believers, the body of Christ, all you get is confusion and God is not the author of confusion. The "Church" is to be with Christ as he rules over the earthly kingdom as his bride, not as subjects of the kingdom.

 

[Willie T]

Of course when anyone disagrees with you they're the ones that are misguided.

Have you considered the reasons for not doing church that way? Firstly, we see the hierarchical structure of the church in the NT. Secondly, it further fractures the church when we are told to seek unity. Thirdly, not everyone is called and gifted to teach. Fourthly, the likelihood of error being taught would be exponential. Just look at these forums; Charles Russel comes to mind also.

Those are just some quick thoughts. Note that I am not saying churches are free from error. But there are good reasons for why things are done the way they are.

If all one has access to is a small group Bible Study, then that is fine. However, they should use proper study material written by a respected pastor or theologian, and be approved by the church leadership where applicable. And a small group should not, when possible, replace a church gathering; it should supplement it.

You have a point about the possibility of error being greater. I call "my home" a forum other than this one. One that is about 30 times more active (at least) than this one, and the opinions are varied, indeed. However, I really do consider that preferable to a "controlled" group where the teaching is limited by what a few select people think is appropriate... as Jethro just spoke about.

Our Wednesday night group is the same. Sometimes we are all over the page. But rather than "doctrinal restrictions imposed by leaders", we have found that no more than simple mutual respect is necessary to maintain everything on an even keel

And I do agree with the time invested. We go a minimum of two hours on Wednesday nights, more often three, and on several occasions have not gone home before four hours (a 7:00 to 11:00 meeting).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

However, I really do consider that preferable to a "controlled" group where the teaching is limited by what a few select people think is appropriate... as Jethro just spoke about.

No, Jethro did not speak about that.

Sometimes we are all over the page. But rather than "doctrinal restrictions imposed by leaders"

Lol, what Jethro was referring to was prohibiting non-Christian doctrines like Gnosticism, for example, from being a topic of discussion. In Jethro's open church even OSAS, predestination, and law keeping, and Catholicism are topics that can be discussed.

we have found that no more than simple mutual respect is necessary to maintain everything on an even keel

Disagreement will not get you dismissed from the church. Passionate discussion will not get you dismissed from the group. Debate (as long as it's courteous) won't even get you dismissed from the group. Blind and deaf dogmatism, that is will get you tossed out on your rumpus, even if you're right.

 

[Free]

You have a point about the possibility of error being greater. I call "my home" a forum other than this one. One that is about 30 times more active (at least) than this one, and the opinions are varied, indeed. However, I really do consider that preferable to a "controlled" group where the teaching is limited by what a few select people think is appropriate... as Jethro just spoke about.

Who says that the teaching in a '"controlled' group" (by which I take it to mean in a regular church service) is "limited"? What do you mean by limited? What do you mean by "a few select people"?

Our Wednesday night group is the same. Sometimes we are all over the page. But rather than "doctrinal restrictions imposed by leaders", we have found that no more than simple mutual respect is necessary to maintain everything on an even keel

What do you mean by "an even keel"? If you mean that everyone gets along, great, but that doesn't really matter. If you mean that everyone gets a say in what they believe to be the truth of a matter, who then decides what the truth actually is and how do they know it is, in fact, the truth?

 

[Willie T]

Who says that the teaching in a '"controlled' group" (by which I take it to mean in a regular church service) is "limited"? What do you mean by limited? What do you mean by "a few select people"?

Don't the Elders in your church interview prospective preachers? They do everywhere I have ever been. And a preacher is not going to be hired if he is has not either sworn to uphold the beliefs of that particular denomination, or he satisfies the Elders that his beliefs echo theirs.

What do you mean by "an even keel"? If you mean that everyone gets along, great, but that doesn't really matter. If you mean that everyone gets a say in what they believe to be the truth of a matter, who then decides what the truth actually is and how do they know it is, in fact, the truth?

I mean that because of friendship and mutual respect, the evening progresses in what we Christians like to refer to as "decency and order." And, where did you get the idea that a member (or even several) of your group or mine gets to decide what is "Truth"? That is a concept for Catholics and their authoritative Pope. You may believe God punished Jesus on the cross.... and I believe God rescued Him from the consequences He chose to accept on our behalf. Which is "THE" truth?

 

[ezra]

i am having a hard time understanding what many considers having a church service one said they would like a building and a retired pastor who was not after money.. i am not retired i have pastor 2 different Churches for FREE well they wanted give me the offering maybe 35.00 max once a month. i have done more preaching for free than i have paid... might i add it is Bible to pay the pastor . i am really confused as to many look for or think a church should be?

 

[ezra]

Lol, what Jethro was referring to was prohibiting non-Christian doctrines like Gnosticism, for example, from being a topic of discussion. In Jethro's open church even OSAS, predestination, and law keeping, and Catholicism are topics that can be discussed.

discussion is Good but many idea come into play and can ruin a congregation . some time one can be so open minded there brain falls out. you have a good idea but the flock has to be guarded strange fire (doctrine) can get carried away. that is where a good leader that knows the word . would have to step in in it got out of control. some churches you mention eternal security .is like waving a staek in front of Dog and expecting him to ignore it.

 

[Willie T]

discussion is Good but many idea come into play and can ruin a congregation . some time one can be so open minded there brain falls out. you have a good idea but the flock has to be guarded strange fire (doctrine) can get carried away. that is where a good leader that knows the word . would have to step in in it got out of control. some churches you mention eternal security .is like waving a staek in front of Dog and expecting him to ignore it.

So, the answer seems to fall back to that old bugaboo of people leaving churches where they are told that "Our way is the right way, and you need to fall into step..... or attend somewhere else."

 

[Free]

Don't the Elders in your church interview prospective preachers? They do everywhere I have ever been. And a preacher is not going to be hired if he is has not either sworn to uphold the beliefs of that particular denomination, or he satisfies the Elders that his beliefs echo theirs.

Of course they interview, as they should. I would not go to a church hat didn't. Such a one is likely to fall into grave error, if it hadn't already. But at least for my denomination, there are people above the pastors and elders. This makes sure there is accountability for the conduct and teaching of the pastor.

And of course they need to be on the same page with what is being taught because what they teach is what they believe the truth to be. One cannot teach something as true that they don't believe is true.

I mean that because of friendship and mutual respect, the evening progresses in what we Christians like to refer to as "decency and order." And, where did you get the idea that a member (or even several) of your group or mine gets to decide what is "Truth"? That is a concept for Catholics and their authoritative Pope. You may believe God punished Jesus on the cross.... and I believe God rescued Him from the consequences He chose to accept on our behalf. Which is "THE" truth?

Someone needs to decide or know what the truth of a matter is, otherwise those who believe in error will continue to believe such and may convince others that their error is actually truth. That is rather the whole reason why God has called some to be teachers. It is straight from Scripture and given by God.

Truth is of the utmost importance and there is no reason having a Bible study if no one knows what the truth is or people get too offended if they're told their views don't line up with Scripture.

 

[ezra]

So, the answer seems to fall back to that old bugaboo of people leaving churches where they are told that "Our way is the right way, and you need to fall into step..... or attend somewhere else."

granted there are them type out there .what is crazy they always have a following . but then we have the church jumpers they stay at one church for a while .till they find another perfect Church and they soon realize its not ..mainly because they are there lol i call them spiritual church jumpers.