Supporting Our Churchs

[Mike]

I feel that there's legalism involved in forcing or making people feel obligated to tithe. But I've seen members shun the idea of money changing hands in the Church at all. Some say pastors shouldn't have any income at all. How are they to live and provide for their families if they don't receive a means? How is a church supposed to operate and pay the bills if they don't receive offerings and support from the congregates?

I see people get in a bundle when our pastor talks about giving and supporting. He only does it a few times a year, but you'd think from their attitude, he does it every week. Members here have condemned churches and pastors for taking offerings and asking members to support their church, but how are they to be an outreach if they aren't able to pay for the costs associated with running a church?

Does anyone have a strong view against churches asking for support, and how would you see them "paying the bills" if they don't?

 

[lamplady]

Re: Supporting Our Church's

It's good that we have offerings. All churches I've been to did it every week. Never experienced people complaining about it.

Wouldn't feel it's a problem giving for a Pastor either. But I suppose it can be a problem if one is OBLIGED or that it is EXPECTED. There'd be too much pressure to give because it's your duty rather then because you WANT to. Certainly wouldn't join a church if that's an requirement of you - like Scientists, Mormons or how Catholics use to run.

Giving should come from your heart.

Maybe a talk is necessary to find out how people feel and hopefully find some alternatives as to what they could do.

 

[Nick]

I think it is expected and almost obliged for Christians to give to the work of the church. The quesiton is not why should we give, but rather why shouldn't we give?

 

[Nathan]

I think we are in the same boat when it comes to this topic. But I am going to bet we are on different sides of the boat. Not from choice, but because of life. I believe a pastor should be supported, and I have no issue with him addressing the issue. The problem I have is when they are not confident enough in Christ, and they take passages out of context to try and drive home the point that they should be supported.

Some that I have known do it different ways, some have had specific dates and messages already 'penned' down to give to the congregation. I will be the first to admit, in all honesty, I find it extremely hard to 'give' to a church when I know how the money is spent. When you see some pretty 'frivolous' things going on, its hard to give money to that.

When your budget is over half a million for a year, and your congregation size is in essence 250-350, it is hard to contemplate where the money goes. Lol. Again, this is pure honesty without any envy at ALL within my heart. But I remember when they were hireing our youth pastor. The were going to give him about 10,000 more a year than I made. Which is not bad, but then one of the guys sitting in front of me asked if that was enough. He sounded very, very concerned that it was not much money at all. I laughed becasue I was supporting my family on less than a whole lot less than that.

I take a big risk posting like this in here. But this is nothing I would not share in public, in my fellowship, if asked. Money is not an issue to me. I hate it in fact. But all in all I think there is no doubt that people should support the local fellowship where they gather together monitory. But more than that, if people would just get involved within the fellowship, then it would probably surprise us how much money it actually takes to pay for the things needful for worship, training, and fellowship.

I absolutely, 100%, believe that a pastor should not have to work outside of the church to support himself. That is, if he is truly a man of God, seeking the heart of God, called by God, to deliver righteous training to God's children. Other than that, most of the pastors we see now days should go out and get a job, maybe they would be able to relate to the world we live in now days better.

Tithing is a real touchy subject with me, but supporting a local fellowship is something I believe in 100%. I just do not like it when the two get mixed up.

 

[Mike]

It seems we're on the same page, but I'm confident if this stays near the top of the forum, someone will see it and disagree. I have a few members in mind who have adamantly objected to salaries for pastors.

In my church, we don't have a special offering for the pastor's salary. We have more than 1 pastor, and their salaries come out of the church's budget which is approved by a vote of the members. I absolutely hear people complain about the pastor talking about the need for offerings. To me this is not much different than a ministry on the radio that depends on donations from listeners. They have expenses. Yes, the Lord will bless ministries, but it doesn't hurt to remind people.

 

[PouringRain]

I am not against pastors receiving support from churches.

I will tell you that I live in an area where there are many pastors who support their family by other means. Our electrician, for example, is also the pastor of a church in town. There is one denomination in town that shut their doors several years back, and has not been able to get a new one in because the church alone would not be able to support him. There are some churches that share a pastor with another town nearby-- so the pastor pastors more than one church in more than one town. Those who pastor churches out here are not doing it for the money.

I have known a couple of pastors themselves who were against receiving income from a church. It is a shame there is not one on this forum who could explain his reasons why he chooses not to income.

You asked if anyone has a problem with churches asking for support and how are they to gain it if they don't ask. I know we have had a thread on this topic before someplace-- on asking for tithes and offerings. For me, it depends on how they ask. I am bothered when pastors stand up and say things like how that the congregation must be really poor based upon the amount of tithes they are giving. To be honest, what a person gives, imo is between that person and God. No pastor has a right to stand up and call people out on it or mock the congregation for what they are giving. But in general, no I do not have a problem with pastors preaching sermons on it, or asking for it, or passing offering plates. I have mentioned before that I have been in churches where they do not pass offering plates and do not ask for tithes and offerings ever, and those churches were extremely blessed by God financially. These churches were sometimes some of the biggest givers to missions. So, I have seen where even without preaching sermons, or passing plates, that churches are able to support themselves.

 

[Blazin Bones]

Pouring Rain, you are in luck with your desire to have a pastor to be who would consider not taking an income to minister. Hello There! :waving

Currently, I know that Caroline and I need God to bless our family financially, and I know I am called to some form of vocational ministry. However, I also know that I am ministering to those I work with at my full-time job, and if I could support my family and pastor without a wage from the church, I would because God would bless our willingness to trust him.

My reason is that Paul did it, and he was still 100% provided for and still made his tents. Does that mean it has to be that way? Certainly not. In the old testament, the people were to provide for the Levites who ministered at the Temple, so it really is a tricky thing to balance.

Caroline and I currently have a problem with our church and how recently our pastor preached on tithing and then suggested that we tithe so we can build new buildings and keep water fountains and the AC going. Our pastor is a Godly man, but many of the illustration he presented missed the point. God can work through his people whether or not we have the best equipped buildings or staffs to do it with.

Here is what Christians need to understand about giving. We should have a desire to see our communities reached for Christ. When we begin doing the work ourselves through our every-day lives instead of just through Church Ministries, we will not need a church staff that earns over a quarter million when many of thier members do not earn that much in 10 years.

However, today's Christian typically think the church will do ministry if I pay them to and I then I keep living my life how I want. When a church has fewer workers willing to skip watching a game on TV, is it any wonder why ministry costs go up?

We should support our churches as God financially allows each of us to if we believe it is the responsibility of others to do our share of the ministry. We should support our churches financially if we believe our church will teach and train Christians better than we will because we do not live our lives as completely sold out as we should. We should support our churches when we beleive that the cooperation of many will better reach our community than our singular efforts.

Giving is simple. When we see a ministry we believe we need to support, we should do it without worry and trust the Lord, which is a practice that takes significant spiritual maturity. Perhaps this issue wouldn't be so cloudy if these same churches depending on tithes and offering would trian their people to see God moving and then to use what God calls them to use to complete His tasks.

 

[Caroline H]

I just want to say that Nathan nailed it in my opinion... excellent post

I also want to add to what Timothy said about how we feel lately. In the last sermon that our pastor preached about tithing, he used Malachi 3. He failed to make the distinction between the Israelites and the Church, and said that we are commanded to bring in our "tithe" to the temple (local congregation) and that anything we delegate is stealing from God. Like, if we chose to give 10% to the Voice of the Martyrs and then give an offering to the church, we are stealing from God. He said that if everyone did that we wouldn't have water fountains... mind you those water fountains have been there at least 15 years. But all this comes about at the exact time when the church is reading David Platt's book "Radical" during Sunday School, which talks about how the American Church needs to take a look at what is going on in persecuted and poor countries and see how people are so much more willing to worship and serve God when they don't have all of these cushy comforts.

*Sigh* [/rant]

 

[Strangelove]

I don't think theres anything wrong with having a donation box and for church staff to subtely remind the congregation now and again of where it is.

Small scale holiday fund raising events would also be acceptable I guess. Raffles and wotnot.


Can I just ask you guys....

This might be a silly question but....are there any churches that charge an anual membership fee?

 

[Mike]

Tim, that's good stuff. I do see our church and others spending questionably the offerings of the congregation. We are called to be good stewards of our resources, but I also try to be of the mind that once it leaves my hands, the money is in His Hands. What others do with it is between themselves and the Lord. It's tough though, when you see them wanting to expand with new wings for the church and upgraded comforts.

I need to keep my ambitions fixed on things of His Kingdom. A vibrant church can be alive with the Holy Spirit even in the midst of luxurious comforts. On the other hand, it doesn't make a church any more holy if they are carrying out their ministry without even a facility to worship in, in and of itself. This is on the level with something I've said before. Being wealthy doesn't necessarily make a person evil, and being poor doesn't necessarily make a person more holy. It comes down to the heart.

2 Cor 9
"<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-28963">6</sup> Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-28964">7</sup> Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-28965">8</sup> And God is able to bless you abundantly, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-28966">9</sup> As it is written: “They have freely scattered their gifts to the poor;
their righteousness endures forever.â€
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-28967">10</sup> Now he who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will also supply and increase your store of seed and will enlarge the harvest of your righteousness. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-28968">11</sup> You will be enriched in every way so that you can be generous on every occasion, and through us your generosity will result in thanksgiving to God.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-28969">12</sup> This service that you perform is not only supplying the needs of the Lord’s people but is also overflowing in many expressions of thanks to God. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-28970">13</sup> Because of the service by which you have proved yourselves, others will praise God for the obedience that accompanies your confession of the gospel of Christ, and for your generosity in sharing with them and with everyone else. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-28971">14</sup> And in their prayers for you their hearts will go out to you, because of the surpassing grace God has given you. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-28972">15</sup> Thanks be to God for his indescribable gift!"

But back to my original OP, if a member joins a church that has facilities and known expenses, they can't expect that it will be maintained without the necessary financial support. Someone can point to scripture and say the Lord will bless a ministry if He Desires to. But in the area of finances, He may be using our financial blessings to be a blessing to this particular ministry. We are blessed to be a blessing. I see that in sharing the Gospel, but I also could see it in using my time, talents and treasures.

 

[Elijah674]

I feel that there's legalism involved in forcing or making people feel obligated to tithe. But I've seen members shun the idea of money changing hands in the Church at all. Some say pastors shouldn't have any income at all. How are they to live and provide for their families if they don't receive a means? How is a church supposed to operate and pay the bills if they don't receive offerings and support from the congregates?

I see people get in a bundle when our pastor talks about giving and supporting. He only does it a few times a year, but you'd think from their attitude, he does it every week. Members here have condemned churches and pastors for taking offerings and asking members to support their church, but how are they to be an outreach if they aren't able to pay for the costs associated with running a church?

Does anyone have a strong view against churches asking for support, and how would you see them "paying the bills" if they don't?

Mal. 3 says what? That God CHANGES?? But the question is are you robbing God by supporting any of the Rev. 17:1-5 ones? SURELY!

[6] For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
[7] Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?
[8] Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.

[9] Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. ...' +!

--Elijah

 

[Caroline H]

Elijah, the command to give tithes and offerings was to the Israelites under the Tabernacle/Temple system... We don't offer sacrifices anymore, we don't have Levites and Priests who take in all of those offerings and sacrifices (many of which were the tithe) and we are not robbing God if we don't do that.

 

[Elijah674]

Elijah, the command to give tithes and offerings was to the Israelites under the Tabernacle/Temple system... We don't offer sacrifices anymore, we don't have Levites and Priests who take in all of those offerings and sacrifices (many of which were the tithe) and we are not robbing God if we don't do that.

OK: 'i' do not want to attempt to put words into another person's mouth. But the [post] seems to be saying that I am not robbing God as He stated in Mal. by the returning of NO funds of Tithe support for His N.T. work, nor [even offerings].. because I am not Jewish, and that was before God changed, and that He is now finished with that?? And Mal. 1:8 is also a sacrifice for todays 'finished' old (now) trash/heep?

No 'personal' offence meant, but I do not buy that!

--Elijah

 

[Caroline H]

I'm not sure I quite follow your post, your posting style is a bit confusing to me.

The fact that God does not change has nothing to do with him giving a specific command to a specific group of people, and me not being included in that... I'm not saying that the Old Testament is irrelevant to us at all, but I am saying that we have to read the entire Bible in its exact context, otherwise we read into it what it is not saying.

I didn't mean to turn this into a debate, but you used the exact passage that the pastor I mentioned did to say that we need to bring all our tithes into the storehouse of the Temple otherwise we are robbing from God... I don't see a Temple, I don't have a heard of goats/cows/bulls/pigeons, nor do I have a field of grain... and if I give a portion of the money that God gives me to an organization that helps Christians in heavily persecuted countries to spread the Gospel there, then I am NOT robbing God.

If that's the case then you need to keep the passover exactly how it was commanded to be kept in the book of Exodus, and you need to observe the feast of unleavened bread for 7 days along with all of the other feasts, and you need to circumcise your son on the 8th day (not when he leaves the hospital), and you need to observe the Sabbath from Friday to Saturday evenings, and ..... I could go on... but I don't believe that the Lord upholds legalism so I'll stop there.

 

[Elijah674]

I'm not sure I quite follow your post, your posting style is a bit confusing to me.

The fact that God does not change has nothing to do with him giving a specific command to a specific group of people, and me not being included in that... I'm not saying that the Old Testament is irrelevant to us at all, but I am saying that we have to read the entire Bible in its exact context, otherwise we read into it what it is not saying.

I didn't mean to turn this into a debate, but you used the exact passage that the pastor I mentioned did to say that we need to bring all our tithes into the storehouse of the Temple otherwise we are robbing from God... I don't see a Temple, I don't have a heard of goats/cows/bulls/pigeons, nor do I have a field of grain... and if I give a portion of the money that God gives me to an organization that helps Christians in heavily persecuted countries to spread the Gospel there, then I am NOT robbing God.

If that's the case then you need to keep the passover exactly how it was commanded to be kept in the book of Exodus, and you need to observe the feast of unleavened bread for 7 days along with all of the other feasts, and you need to circumcise your son on the 8th day (not when he leaves the hospital), and you need to observe the Sabbath from Friday to Saturday evenings, and ..... I could go on... but I don't believe that the Lord upholds legalism so I'll stop there.

Hi once more!;) (Seeing that it sounds as a personal debate?? thing)
If you read my [POST] (it was nothing personal! OK??) you will see what my THEME WAS MEANT TO BE. It was not just about the Lords tithe but His freewill offerings given to us as well. We disagree with each other on this also, which is up to us individually.

OK: This is what I was getting at, regardless of our view, right or wrong, we still can ROBB GOD by supporting any church that He is not in. And I gave the Rev. 17:1-5 verses for referance.

But nothing personal from this end, No debate from me! we just do our own thing. I believe in Titus 3:9-11 regardless of who is right, huh?

--Elijah

 

[Caroline H]

OK: This is what I was getting at, regardless of our view, right or wrong, we still can ROBB GOD by supporting any church that He is not in. And I gave the Rev. 17:1-5 verses for referance.

Ok that's a bit more clear, and I do agree with you on that point.

 

[farouk]

Elijah, the command to give tithes and offerings was to the Israelites under the Tabernacle/Temple system... We don't offer sacrifices anymore, we don't have Levites and Priests who take in all of those offerings and sacrifices (many of which were the tithe) and we are not robbing God if we don't do that.

Caroline:

Yes; (whatever Elijah meant), this is a strong point you made about the discontinuity dispensationally of the Old and New systems.

Of course if the Lord prospers Christians now they may feel led to give very liberally and even sacrificially, but this is very different from the tithe obligations to the Levites under the Old Testament.

The word 'New' in the term 'New Testament' is very important.

 

[Elijah674]

Caroline:

Yes; (whatever Elijah meant), this is a strong point you made about the discontinuity dispensationally of the Old and New systems.

Of course if the Lord prospers Christians now they may feel led to give very liberally and even sacrificially, but this is very different from the tithe obligations to the Levites under the Old Testament.

The word 'New' in the term 'New Testament' is very important.

And Eccl. 3:15 says what?
It is a good thing that God changed His Word for some, huh? (Heb. 13:8 + 9!) And Christ's Word in the N.T. of Matt. 23:23 documents '.. and not to leave the other undone.'

Also might 'i' add?.. I am sure glad that the Lord gave me the privilage to live in USA & not undrer the professed Christian's of Rev. 17:1-5. So far at least, huh!
But even then, we will soon see them & Ceasar united.

And the post says.. 'and may [FEEL] ..' ???
Is Loving the Lord no longer a 'LOVING' Moral Principle but a feeling???
Whatever, but perhaps there is a special message to these ones of Rev. 3:15-17??

--Elijah

 

[handy]

This might be a silly question but....are there any churches that charge an anual membership fee?

Doc, I've never heard of a church that charged a membership fee, but I've known of some churches that so abused the concept of tithes and offerings that they might as well have.

The worst abuse I've ever come across was the church that operated the day care that I worked at for 12+ years. The director of the day care was (had to be) a member of that church and get this...they actually took 10% of her wages out of her check automatically as a deduction from her take home. She had no say so about this. I'm not even sure it was legal, but if she wanted a job, it was what she had to put up with. What got me about it was that she and her husband was going through a really bad financial crises, so bad that they couldn't even afford their one bedroom apartment and was only saved from being out on the street by her sister offering to let them live in the camper her brother-in-law used for hunting. They had a baby at the time, and it was winter, they lived in a camper...and the church still sucked 10% of her wages out of her wages. This while the pastor lived in a 6 bedroom mini-mansion with a pool and drove a Cadillac.

Quite frankly, the only churches I've ever known to even speak of "tithes" have been churches that have huge "overheads": fancy church buildings, snazzy "curb appeal" landscaping, yes, even water fountains, and a pastoral staff that net large incomes. The two Nazarene churches I've belonged to were like this, and in each of the churches, each of the pastors always stressed "GOD's tithes and your offerings" during collection times, insinuating that if you didn't give a tithe (10%) you were robbing God. Yes, these churches did support many good ministries and missions, but a lot of money went to "overhead".

However, most of the churches I've been a member of have had one hard working pastor that lives no better nor worse than most members of the congregation, a church building that is paid for with landscaping done by members and just general expenses like utilities and insurance. And yet, the amount that they spend in supporting ministries and missions equal that of the churches with the snazzier buildings.

Where I live, there are a lot of small churches that are too small to even support a pastor. So, many of the pastors around here are of the "tentmaker" variety. My brother-in-law was such a one, he worked full time as a self-employed flooring installer, and did all his pastoral work during the evenings and weekends. Being self-employed, if a pastoral crises occurred during the day, he could re-arrange his schedule if necessary. It worked out. It works out in a lot of the small rural churches around here.

We've been going to our new church for over a year now...not once has the pastor preached on money. He did mention "offerings" in a sermon once, but it was in context of the text of the day, and was not the thrust of the sermon. The only thing about offerings that is seen each and every week is in our bulletin which states that we welcome all visitors and do not expect any monetary offerings or gifts from visitors. I've never heard our pastor refer to tithes, and I believe that tithes were for the Old Covenant support of the Levite priests and are not for the New Covenant. Our church building is large, comfortable, nice enough and paid for. We support missionaries and we are a huge contributor to the local food bank. The pastor did explain to us in one of our membership classes that if something were to ever happen so that Steve could not work, we needed to let him know and the church would do what it could to help us out. (This was when Steve shared that he was undergoing a change in his epilepsy medications and that it was causing an increase in seizures.)

I don't begrudge a pastor making a good living wage, I truly don't. And, if a church is large, the pastor and staff really do need to be full time workers, and should be supported.

I don't even begrudge a fountain courtyard or a state of the art technological multi-media system that costs tens of thousands of dollars for a church to use during worship services. But, those things are not necessary for worshiping God, equipping the saints or sharing the gospel to the ends of the earth, which is what the true purpose of the church is. A congregation should give enough in offerings (free offerings not mandated tithes) to support the true purposes of the Church. It does not have to, but can if it wants to, give enough to add some bells and whistles, but it should keep in mind that these things are not necessary and should only be added if the missions and ministries of the church are well funded.

But, pastors who harp on "tithes" yet drive around in Cadillacs when there are congregants in dire financial distress leave a very bad taste in my mouth.

 

[Elijah674]

Caroline:

Yes; (whatever Elijah meant), this is a strong point you made about the discontinuity dispensationally of the Old and New systems.

Of course if the Lord prospers Christians now they may feel led to give very liberally and even sacrificially, but this is very different from the tithe obligations to the Levites under the Old Testament.

The word 'New' in the term 'New Testament' is very important.

Your post needs more study of when the Eternal Gospel started. It was not started with Jews. Tithing, Eternal Covenant + some other laws were long before! If it would do any good I would give you some verses to help giving Truth? Of course they would need to be believed.

--Elijah