Supporting Our Churchs

[Sparkey]

The worst abuse I've ever come across was the church that operated the day care that I worked at for 12+ years. The director of the day care was (had to be) a member of that church and get this...they actually took 10% of her wages out of her check automatically as a deduction from her take home.
...
Quite frankly, the only churches I've ever known to even speak of "tithes" have been churches that have huge "overheads": fancy church buildings, snazzy "curb appeal" landscaping, yes, even water fountains, and a pastoral staff that net large incomes. ...

But, pastors who harp on "tithes" yet drive around in Cadillacs when there are congregants in dire financial distress leave a very bad taste in my mouth.

Well said, Handy.

I also believe that it is only reasonable for those who receive spiritual things to be willing to offer physical support. The trade of pizza for the mana from heaven is nothing short of the best deal I've ever heard of (almost).

2 There was one church though... I listened to the sermon about 'giving pacts' and 'generational curses' where the extremely wealthy pastor said that the poor members of his congregation were robbing GOD if they didn't give a minimum 10% tithe of their foodstamps to him. Seriously. Can such guilt trips be tolerated? Apparently they can. But not by God. His is the final say.


~Sparrow

 

[Alabaster]

1 Timothy 5:17
Elders who do their work well should be respected and paid well, especially those who work hard at both preaching and teaching.

 

[Elijah674]

Well said, Handy.

I also believe that it is only reasonable for those who receive spiritual things to be willing to offer physical support. The trade of pizza for the mana from heaven is nothing short of the best deal I've ever heard of (almost).

2 There was one church though... I listened to the sermon about 'giving pacts' and 'generational curses' where the extremely wealthy pastor said that the poor members of his congregation were robbing GOD if they didn't give a minimum 10% tithe of their foodstamps to him. Seriously. Can such guilt trips be tolerated? Apparently they can. But not by God. His is the final say.

~Sparrow

So what does that posting have to do with Obeying God???

Matt.23
[1] Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
[2] Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
[3] All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

 

[farouk]

... To be honest, what a person gives, imo is between that person and God. No pastor has a right to stand up and call people out on it or mock the congregation for what they are giving. ...

PouringRain:

Yes, I wholeheartedly agree.

This is not what is practised, however, by a lot of so called evangelical leaders in North America.

 

[Strangelove]

1 Timothy 5:17
Elders who do their work well should be respected and paid well, especially those who work hard at both preaching and teaching.

The 'real' verse actually says:

5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honor,
especially they who labor in the word and doctrine.​

Of course modern Bibles pervert the scripture to assume a greater salary instead of simply honor/value.

Original Word: τιμή
Transliteration: timé
Phonetic Spelling: (tee-may')
Short Definition: honor

Word Origin
akin to tió (to value, honor)
Definition
a valuing, a price
NASB Word Usage
honor (28), honorable use (1), marks of respect (1), precious value (1), price (7), proceeds (1), sum (1), value (1).

I'd say the onus is on honor/value/respect rather than a financial monetary sum.

 

[Alabaster]

The 'real' verse actually says:

5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honor,
especially they who labor in the word and doctrine.​

Of course modern Bibles pervert the scripture to assume a greater salary instead of simply honor/value.

Original Word: τιμή
Transliteration: timé
Phonetic Spelling: (tee-may')
Short Definition: honor

Word Origin
akin to tió (to value, honor)
Definition
a valuing, a price
NASB Word Usage
honor (28), honorable use (1), marks of respect (1), precious value (1), price (7), proceeds (1), sum (1), value (1).

I'd say the onus is on honor/value/respect rather than a financial monetary sum.

Double honour is the same as making sure that these people are paid well.

G5092
τιμή
timē
tee-may'
From G5099; a value, that is, money paid, or (concretely and collectively) valuables; by analogy esteem (especially of the highest degree), or the dignity itself: - honour, precious, price, some.

 

[Strangelove]

Double honour is the same as making sure that these people are paid well.

G5092
τιμή
timē
tee-may'
From G5099; a value, that is, money paid, or (concretely and collectively) valuables; by analogy esteem (especially of the highest degree), or the dignity itself: - honour, precious, price, some.

The root word means honor. The learned KJV translaters say honor.

You're corrupted new age translation assumes monetary salary.

It just says honor.

 

[stovebolts]

Strangelove,
Have you read 1 Corinthians 9:1-18?
What are your thoughts on 9:9-11?
What right is Paul speaking on in verse 18 which he, as entitled, has forfeited?

 

[theLords]

Well said, Handy.

I also believe that it is only reasonable for those who receive spiritual things to be willing to offer physical support. The trade of pizza for the mana from heaven is nothing short of the best deal I've ever heard of (almost).

2 There was one church though... I listened to the sermon about 'giving pacts' and 'generational curses' where the extremely wealthy pastor said that the poor members of his congregation were robbing GOD if they didn't give a minimum 10% tithe of their foodstamps to him. Seriously. Can such guilt trips be tolerated? Apparently they can. But not by God. His is the final say.


~Sparrow

How can a man of God say such things and not tremble? Doesn't James say that "not all should become teachers because teachers will be judged on a higher standard"?

God's heart is with the poor and the struggling. I can never understand how any such person can say such a thing "in God's name" Where is the fear of God??? What is happening?? Acting in such a way before God terrifies me! That pastor is robbing God's people and God, not the congregants.

 

[Strangelove]

Strangelove,
Have you read 1 Corinthians 9:1-18?
What are your thoughts on 9:9-11?
What right is Paul speaking on in verse 18 which he, as entitled, has forfeited?

No I've never read it. ed!

Whats he talkin' 'bout?

 

[stovebolts]

Strangelove,
Have you read 1 Corinthians 9:1-18?
What are your thoughts on 9:9-11?
What right is Paul speaking on in verse 18 which he, as entitled, has forfeited?

No I've never read it. ed!

Whats he talkin' 'bout?

Well, go on ahead and give it the old college try and then get back with us ok?

 

[Alabaster]

The root word means honor. The learned KJV translaters say honor.

You're corrupted new age translation assumes monetary salary.

It just says honor.

Hilarious! No it doesn't.

 

[Strangelove]

Hilarious! No it doesn't.

Denial without evidence is simply an opinion.

And therefore worth little.

 

[Strangelove]

Well, go on ahead and give it the old college try and then get back with us ok?

Ok I read it. I dont understand what point you are trying to make. And I dont see the word 'forfeited' in my version.

Why dont you explain.

 

[stovebolts]

Ok I read it. I dont understand what point you are trying to make. And I dont see the word 'forfeited' in my version.

Why dont you explain.

15 - No trolling. Don't make inflammatory remarks just to get a response. You won't be labeled as a troll if your post has substance. Refrain from behavior which may be deemed inappropriate or disruptive as defined by these terms of Service and at christianforums.net sole discretion.

An infraction has been given.

 

[Elijah674]

1Cor.9

[1] Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?
[2] If I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you: for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord.
(The above was proof, and he did see Christ)

[3] Mine answer to them that do examine me is this,
[4] Have we not power to eat and to drink?
[5] Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?
(he did, and he believed that there was no change in the original system of tithe support)

[6] Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working?
(surely! See Matt. 23:3 + ibide. 23!)

[7] Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?

[8] Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?
[9] For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?

[10] Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
[11] If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
[12] If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.
(Where & when money was scarce, Paul used his self supporting trade of tent making for income. When the extended church started up with only a Matt. 10:5-6 Remnant, it always used Pauls example of Love for Christ + the souls that He died for in first consideration. But to teach that Tithes + Offerings were 'tossed'? that is antiChrist teaching)

[13] Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the alter are partakers with the alter?
[14] Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

[15] But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void.
[16] For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!
(OK: If one thinks that God has called him to preach? And he has not this above attitude? 'i' personally believe that he missed his calling if he persues it. But, there are many who have NO DOUBT been called of God, yet, do not have this Agape Loving attitude. The COST was to much to 'them'.Luke 14:28)

[17] For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.
[18] What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.

(it is interesting that Paul was not forced into this huh? He had [TOTALLY FREE WILL] other than that of a [LOVING MOTIVE!]


--Elijah (as well as all of us do!)

 

[Classik]

I feel that there's legalism involved in forcing or making people feel obligated to tithe. But I've seen members shun the idea of money changing hands in the Church at all. Some say pastors shouldn't have any income at all. How are they to live and provide for their families if they don't receive a means? How is a church supposed to operate and pay the bills if they don't receive offerings and support from the congregates?

I see people get in a bundle when our pastor talks about giving and supporting. He only does it a few times a year, but you'd think from their attitude, he does it every week. Members here have condemned churches and pastors for taking offerings and asking members to support their church, but how are they to be an outreach if they aren't able to pay for the costs associated with running a church?

Does anyone have a strong view against churches asking for support, and how would you see them "paying the bills" if they don't?

Any man or woman who doesn't pay his/her tithe or give offering is simply being stingy and ignorant. Not only that, you are denying yourself the blessings that come from God.

 

[Elijah674]

Any man or woman who doesn't pay his/her tithe or give offering is simply being stingy and ignorant. Not only that, you are denying yourself the blessings that come from God.

Matt. 23
[23] Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and [not to leave the other undone].

There is NO changing of Christ in this Truth, (Heb. 13:8!) in fact it is just the opposite! But, one needs to be sure that they are not supporting the ones of Rev. 17:1-5 + be in their membership!

Rev. 18
[4] And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, [Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins], and that ye receive not of her plagues.
[5] For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

Today's 'devil' has both extrems seen, his own teachings of 'no required support for God's work' & by robbing God while knowingly supporting him. (satan)

--Elijah

 

[Classik]

We don't do it for the pastors - we give to God. You give and you receive from Him.

 

[Classik]

If you choose not to give.....good for you (But I encourage you to give). People who give have smiling teeth.

Freely I recived and freely I give, not under duress, not out of eyeservice. I don't give because the pastors say I should - I give because I love God. At the end God gives me a maniacal guffaw:biglol



I have not even given enough - I'm guilty. Give a bucket of water and God gives you the atlantic ocean