Supporting Our Churchs

[Adullam]

I feel that there's legalism involved in forcing or making people feel obligated to tithe. But I've seen members shun the idea of money changing hands in the Church at all. Some say pastors shouldn't have any income at all. How are they to live and provide for their families if they don't receive a means? How is a church supposed to operate and pay the bills if they don't receive offerings and support from the congregates?

I see people get in a bundle when our pastor talks about giving and supporting. He only does it a few times a year, but you'd think from their attitude, he does it every week. Members here have condemned churches and pastors for taking offerings and asking members to support their church, but how are they to be an outreach if they aren't able to pay for the costs associated with running a church?

Does anyone have a strong view against churches asking for support, and how would you see them "paying the bills" if they don't?

A man of God does not look for any kind of financial security...unless he is a man of god (Mammon).

Having said that, a man of God who ministers in the Body should receive food and clothing and be given shelter with the brethren. He should NEVER receive a paycheck as the world seeks. Support is not the same as a paycheck. Support implies only NECESSITIES.

No salary, but expenses covered. Otherwise we are building a religious system based on this present fallen world.

 

[ChristianNationalist]

I only have a problem with it when people look down on those who cannot afford to give. Some of us spend virtually every penny we make just trying to make it from one month to the next, we can't afford to pay at the church as well.

Any man or woman who doesn't pay his/her tithe or give offering is simply being stingy and ignorant. Not only that, you are denying yourself the blessings that come from God.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. So a struggling mother of three, which of her three children should she short-change so she can put money in the plate? I find it funny that charity to the poor is a pillar of our faith yet we will look down on that same poor if they don't pay into the pot. Those in need need not pay. If people are so concerned about the church not receiving their cut maybe they should put up their neighbor's share as well.

 

[Hitch]

A man of God does not look for any kind of financial security...unless he is a man of god (Mammon).

Having said that, a man of God who ministers in the Body should receive food and clothing and be given shelter with the brethren. He should NEVER receive a paycheck as the world seeks. Support is not the same as a paycheck. Support implies only NECESSITIES.

No salary, but expenses covered. Otherwise we are building a religious system based on this present fallen world.

Horse pucky

 

[Classik]

I have said it before: we don't give out of duress, we don't give out of eyeservice - we freely give. I don't encourage sweet-talking people into giving. Must you give money? You can give other things - not necessarily money. Some of us give stuff from our garden.


We don't give foolishly to starve our family. I still believe you can give that your last penny. Challenge God and see if He answers. (You may be poor - but, you will never become wretched)

 

[Adullam]

Horse pucky

Ride on!!!

 

[Elijah674]

I have said it before: we don't give out of duress, we don't give out of eyeservice - we freely give. I don't encourage sweet-talking people into giving. Must you give money? You can give other things - not necessarily money. Some of us give stuff from our garden.


We don't give foolishly to starve our family. I still believe you can give that your last penny. Challenge God and see if He answers. (You may be poor - but, you will never become wretched)

Death 'hopefully' Phil. 4:13 before dis/honor. Christ FIRST, if He cannot take care of one, who needs Him?? Rom. 8:28's ALL THINGS! Some are poor because Christ is not in FIRST place in there lives. (both spiritally + materially) And it seems that even most of these ones have money for what they want. Most of USA seem to 'eat' pretty [full] by their looks + kids?

Whatever??

--Elijah

 

[ivorhughjarse]

If you want to worship in a multi-million dollar church expect to to have a lot of business talk about finance from the platform. Every business has expenses and the bigger the business the bigger the expense

Gather together without the big church just meet each other in your homes and share your lives where all are gifted and equal and there will never be a financial call on you but when someone within the group needs, then you will give willingly

Then there's everything in between those two..the choice is yours

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I feel that there's legalism involved in forcing or making people feel obligated to tithe.

Especially since the way the church teaches it and does it isn't how it was done in the law. I challenge every tithe teaching pastor to tell his people to eat their own tithe (when that is to be done according to the law of tithe).

But I've seen members shun the idea of money changing hands in the Church at all.

Just another example of how we in the church have to polarize everything and not consider that the truth might be somewhere in the middle.

Some say pastors shouldn't have any income at all. How are they to live and provide for their families if they don't receive a means? How is a church supposed to operate and pay the bills if they don't receive offerings and support from the congregates?

I think the fundamental idea is that this way only God's work succeeds. I know this from my own experience that when people are truly fed spiritually, they will support the work and ministry of those who fed them. So, it stands to reason that ministries that fail to feed the people of God will wither and die from lack of support. Which is a good thing.

I see people get in a bundle when our pastor talks about giving and supporting. He only does it a few times a year, but you'd think from their attitude, he does it every week.

I believe giving can be taught in a way from the Bible that does NOT cause this reaction.

Members here have condemned churches and pastors for taking offerings and asking members to support their church, but how are they to be an outreach if they aren't able to pay for the costs associated with running a church?[/B]

Does anyone have a strong view against churches asking for support, and how would you see them "paying the bills" if they don't?

I see nothing wrong at all with asking for support. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think Moses was instructed by God to ask the people for the money and materials to build the Temple.

I'm convinced that churches have waaaay too much overhead which makes it necessary to bully its congregates into supporting what they're doing. That's the problem...churches are too fat. And then they expect the congregation to support it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If you want to worship in a multi-million dollar church expect to to have a lot of business talk about finance from the platform. Every business has expenses and the bigger the business the bigger the expense

Gather together without the big church just meet each other in your homes and share your lives where all are gifted and equal and there will never be a financial call on you but when someone within the group needs, then you will give willingly

But so many people are convinced you won't be doing it the way it's supposed to be done...you know, the way we've been doing it and have been doing it for centuries...but which flies in the face of scripture, nonetheless. And may I point out, you can still meet in a separate building and do what you said. Only having church in homes, if that's what you're suggesting, is polarizing the issue too much, IMO.

Having a large church seems to be the perceived will of God for the church these days. I can't help but to see how that was born out of the business model of building churches and denominations...churches and denominations that struggle for survival, but which I suggest should maybe pass away if they aren't feeding the people of God anyway.

 

[Adullam]

If you want to worship in a multi-million dollar church expect to to have a lot of business talk about finance from the platform. Every business has expenses and the bigger the business the bigger the expense

Gather together without the big church just meet each other in your homes and share your lives where all are gifted and equal and there will never be a financial call on you but when someone within the group needs, then you will give willingly

Then there's everything in between those two..the choice is yours

But how does this serve the grandiose purposes of men? ;)

 

[Elijah674]

But how does this serve the grandiose purposes of men? ;)

Isa. 5 finds Christ & His Church 'HOUSE'. Verse 3 tells why old Israel was in fact REJECTED. There was NOTHING wrong with the DOCTRINES of the HOUSE. The problem was that in verse 3 finds the WHOLE of Christ's Very own REJECTED HIM, the centerpiece of the House!

John 12 finds...
[42] Nevertheless among the chief rulers also [many **believed on him]; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
[43] [For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God].

And today??? We have a 'whole denomination' (Church) teaching that these above ones are saved by only their belief! So, again, one needs to be sure that Christ is IN HIS CHURCH before support is given by either 'yoked membership or Christ's tithes + offerings! And it takes both His tithes + offerings to be right with Him!

--Elijah

 

[Mike]

I only have a problem with it when people look down on those who cannot afford to give. Some of us spend virtually every penny we make just trying to make it from one month to the next, we can't afford to pay at the church as well.

No one should know or care what the person next to them is doing with their offerings. That's pride. I am so personally against pressure coming from any other man with regard to tithes and offerings, it turns my stomach when I hear it discussed. God moves and gives the capacity of a willing person to give back to Him or do any good thing in His Name. At that point, it is between him and the Lord.

If you want to worship in a multi-million dollar church expect to to have a lot of business talk about finance from the platform. Every business has expenses and the bigger the business the bigger the expense

Gather together without the big church just meet each other in your homes and share your lives where all are gifted and equal and there will never be a financial call on you but when someone within the group needs, then you will give willingly

Then there's everything in between those two..the choice is yours

And this was my point; the flip side of the coin. If we choose to be members of a church with administrative expenses, we cannot be disgusted when it asks for offerings. Demand them, no. Ask for them, okay.

 

[Elysian]

If you want to worship in a multi-million dollar church expect to to have a lot of business talk about finance from the platform. Every business has expenses and the bigger the business the bigger the expense

Gather together without the big church just meet each other in your homes and share your lives where all are gifted and equal and there will never be a financial call on you but when someone within the group needs, then you will give willingly

Then there's everything in between those two..the choice is yours

Good point. I wish Christians were as Christian as you are.

 

[Classik]

Good point. I wish Christians were as Christian as you are.

:yes :yes

 

[Elijah674]

Especially since the way the church teaches it and does it isn't how it was done in the law. I challenge every tithe teaching pastor to tell his people to eat their own tithe (when that is to be done according to the law of tithe).



Just another example of how we in the church have to polarize everything and not consider that the truth might be somewhere in the middle.



I think the fundamental idea is that this way only God's work succeeds. I know this from my own experience that when people are truly fed spiritually, they will support the work and ministry of those who fed them. So, it stands to reason that ministries that fail to feed the people of God will wither and die from lack of support. Which is a good thing.

I believe giving can be taught in a way from the Bible that does NOT cause this reaction.

I see nothing wrong at all with asking for support. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think Moses was instructed by God to ask the people for the money and materials to build the Temple.

I'm convinced that churches have waaaay too much overhead which makes it necessary to bully its congregates into supporting what they're doing. That's the problem...churches are too fat. And then they expect the congregation to support it.

Yet, that does not do away with Christ's [REQUIRED] Word of Mal. 3..
[6] For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
[7] Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?
[8] Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In [[tithes and offerings]].
[9] Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
[10] Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
[11] And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts.

The other side of the Truth is that the Matt. 7 broadway ones seen in Rev. 17:1-5 in satan's camp 'stink' but the narrow ones there in Matt 7 still need the Lords REQUIRED Support! Rev. 12:17 are these! And who support is given for is ones 'free will' choice.

--Elijah

 

[ivorhughjarse]

find who were exempt and why? that may well help explain why Jesus chose the fishermen and why they were viewed as a lesser class. Some common tradesmen who grew no crops and had no animals find out what their portion was

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yet, that does not do away with Christ's [REQUIRED] Word of Mal. 3..
[6] For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
[7] Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?
[8] Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In [[tithes and offerings]].
[9] Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
[10] Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
[11] And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts.

The other side of the Truth is that the Matt. 7 broadway ones seen in Rev. 17:1-5 in satan's camp 'stink' but the narrow ones there in Matt 7 still need the Lords REQUIRED Support! Rev. 12:17 are these! And who support is given for is ones 'free will' choice.

--Elijah

But this fails to explain what did indeed change in regard to keeping the commands of God. It's not a good argument to use 'God doesn't change' to defend keeping various laws in the law of Moses when we all know and agree some things in the law really don't have to be kept anymore. Don't misunderstand, I'm all for tithing...even in the way the church teaches it, which is way beyond what was required under the law.

You can't out give God. If you give fifty, or sixty percent, God's blessing, in the end, will increase accordingly:

6 Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously.

8 And God is able to bless you abundantly, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work.

11 You will be enriched in every way so that you can be generous on every occasion, and through us your generosity will result in thanksgiving to God.

(2 Cor. 9:6,8,11 NIV1984)

 

[Car Guy]

All Christians have a duty to support their home church financially regardless of income. Even if you are poor, disabled, or elderly on a fixed income the bible says we are to give and that goes without exception. Whether your church has 100 members or 10,000 members is irrlevant. The money is ultimately given to worship God.

As to the amount, we are not under the law and tithing is not for the believers in the church age. However, the tithe should serve as a guideline as to how much we are to give and believers should make that their goal if they are not already doing so.

That said, there are plenty of people, especially in the US, that have the resources and should be giving MORE than 10%.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

All Christians have a duty to support their home church financially regardless of income. Even if you are poor, disabled, or elderly on a fixed income the bible says we are to give and that goes without exception. Whether your church has 100 members or 10,000 members is irrlevant. The money is ultimately given to worship God.

As to the amount, we are not under the law and tithing is not for the believers in the church age. However, the tithe should serve as a guideline as to how much we are to give and believers should make that their goal if they are not already doing so.

That said, there are plenty of people, especially in the US, that have the resources and should be giving MORE than 10%.

If we were going to tithe the way it was commanded in the law I think it would be hard for most of us to consume our tithe when that's the time the law says to do that. Here in the US a tithe would buy a lot of food!

 

[Elijah674]

But this fails to explain what did indeed change in regard to keeping the commands of God. It's not a good argument to use 'God doesn't change' to defend keeping various laws in the law of Moses when we all know and agree some things in the law really don't have to be kept anymore. Don't misunderstand, I'm all for tithing...even in the way the church teaches it, which is way beyond what was required under the law.

You can't out give God. If you give fifty, or sixty percent, God's blessing, in the end, will increase accordingly:

6 Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously.

8 And God is able to bless you abundantly, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work.

11 You will be enriched in every way so that you can be generous on every occasion, and through us your generosity will result in thanksgiving to God.

(2 Cor. 9:6,8,11 NIV1984)

Law of Moses? 'i' think that it is you who needs to tell us why God called Abe in the First Place, while Inspiration has ALL OF THESE LAWS postscripted long before any Jew was pedigreed.

Gen. 26...
[1] And there was a famine in the land, beside the first famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went unto Abimelech king of the Philistines unto Gerar.
[2] And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of:
[3] Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;
[4] And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
[5] Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, [[[my commandments, my statutes, and my laws]]].

Surely you know that God directed mankind in person by His Voice? And at this start of Obedient mankind there were 'Their 7th Sabbath Birthday Memorial' to be kept. Psalms 135:13 & even before the flood there were (& are) the clean + unclean creation. And health law's? You don't think so???

And tithing laws were a given + other laws that had NOTHING much to do with Moses laws written in a book & placed in the side of the Ark of God. And what was inside the Ark were the Lord's ten Commendments that He penned & then rewrote in ones heart.

Most of what Moses penned had to do with the earthly sanctuary built at God's total required direction to Worship Him there until after Christ died. These laws were added because of sin. (Gal. 3:19) All were a type of blueprint or recipe so to speak & pointed to prophecy to be full/filled! Note 1 Kings 8...

[9] There was nothing in the ark save the two tables of stone, which Moses put there at Horeb, when the LORD made a covenant with the children of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt. (later we are told that the Rod that buddieth was added)

Also see 2 Chron. 8...
[12] Then Solomon offered burnt offerings unto the LORD on the altar of the LORD, which he had built before the porch,
[13] Even after a certain rate every day, offering [[[according to the commandment of Moses, on the sabbaths, and on the new moons, and on the solemn feasts, three times in the year, even in the feast of unleavened bread, and in the feast of weeks, and in the feast of tabernacles]]].

OK: Deut. 31 has it this way...

[9] And Moses wrote this law, and delivered it unto the priests the sons of Levi, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and unto all the elders of Israel.
[10] And Moses commanded them, saying, At the end of every seven years, in the solemnity of the year of release, in the feast of tabernacles,
....
[24] And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished,
[25] That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying,

[26] Take this book of the law, and put [[it in the side]] of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

--Elijah