"Symbol of Christianity?"

[Gabe]

Yes, extremely funny.

You continually tell us of your "monumental struggle" and how you have finaly managed to "let go" and "accept Gods will" and then freely admit to owning what you consider (wrongly: as has been proven by your own definition) to be graven images; how have you managed to delude yourself into thinking this is "letting go"? You continually accuse others of being worldly and vain, only to freely admit your own "vanity"; how have you managed to delude yourself into thinking this is "letting go"? You continualy fail to acknowledge any of this or what anyone else has to say and through your own ignorance and refusal to read and acknowledge what others have to say, you wrongly accuse us of being "liberal" (which we are not) because our walk has been too easy and we do not appretiate the truth because of this; how have you managed to delude yourself into thinking this is "letting go"?

Paul and Peter offered us truth. You, on the other hand....offer us nothing but disdain.

Gabriel

 

[francisdesales]

Fran,

It seems as though you'd rather attack my words than discuss issues pertaining to The Word. I guess that is to be accepted when ANYONE offers that which disagrees with their 'beliefs'.

I attack your words because they incorrectly portray the sense of Sacred Scriptures on this issue. What would you have me attack, then? We have discussed these issues ad nauseum, as anyone can see...

I am WELL aware that Satan is able to disguise himself. I have witnessed a vast array of ways in which he has done this very thing to perpetuate his influence on the churches. That is the MAIN reason that there is SO MUCH confusion today IN the churches.

But for some strange reason, you are immune to this delusion? One alone is much more easily deluded than an entire community. This is one of the reasons WHY Christ formed a visible Church - to protect its members individually from pride and delusion. Something you are being subjected to because of your desire to "go it alone".

And I suppose that if Paul or Peter were HERE TODAY and offering the SAME words as I do, you'd attack them in the same manner.

Being that the Catholic Church is built upon the Apostles, I wouldn't disagree with them.

I don't BLAME anyone for their beliefs. I have simply tried to offer that there is OFTEN much more understanding offered than that of the churches.

I disagree with your "offerings". Why can't you accept that?

The churches are BOUND by what they BELIEVE and teach THIS to others. Over TIME, often these BELIEFS become altered and misinterpreted by the NEXT generation and so the ideas themselves are NOT understood.

So are you. You are bound by your very own conscience by what is true and what is not true. Please, drop the cliches about "those who follow a church are being led astray" baloney. You are MUCH MORE susceptible to delusion because you only follow your OWN understanding, even when the Bible clearly states that the CHURCH is the pillar of the truth, not the individual who separates themselves from the community.

I can ASSURE you, liberalism in deed we NOT the 'plan' offered by God to mankind. ONLY when one's understanding of LOVE is COMPLETE will we EVER become truly FREE to DO as we will. For ONLY then will we be ABLE to discern what is GOOD and what is NOT.

What makes you think you have "full" understanding of ANYTHING?

What I offer are NOT words of 'condemnation' for I am UNABLE to condemn ANYONE. What I have offered are words that if considered and followed may well be able to lead one to a 'closer relationship' with Our Father. I always 'assume' when I come in contact with those that 'call' themselves 'Christian' that that IS their MAIN purpose in accepting Christ into their hearts. If I am wrong, forgive me.

Sorry, that is your opinion, nothing more. Considering that you do not even know the relationship of the Father to the Son, your offering of the Father is suspect.

And Fran, there certainly ARE those among us that ARE chosen to reveal that which God chooses for others to KNOW. Whether they are heeded or not is TOTALLY dependant upon the 'state' of their hearts. For there will ALWAYS be those that will NEVER learn no matter what efforts God chooses to reveal his knowledge.

You are not one of those chosen by God to reveal anything. You merely confuse people with your words. You contradict the very Scriptures you pretend to protect. What you are protecting is NOT God's Word, but your own.

The Word is the 'beginning' of knowledge. It is by NO MEANS the 'end of it'. So we must FIRST begin to UNDERSTAND through the Word.

Agreed. And you do not understand the Word on this matter - as well as some other matters. You history is awful. Your knowledge of Catholicism is woefully inadequate to make judgments about it. I would suggest you do some more humble reading rather than making proclamations from on high.

Regards

 

[John]

You contradict the very Scriptures you pretend to protect. What you are protecting is NOT God's Word, but your own.

Sorry i could not resist :rolling

 

[francisdesales]

Sorry i could not resist :rolling

This is called "TROLLING". It is against the rules of this board. Another such post will be reported.

I have already explained my position on evolution and creation. If you cannot comprehend how the two are not in contradistinction, that is not my fault. God knows I have tried to explain. God also knows I have shown your position on a young earth to be ludicruous. Over and over.

I do not choose to speak about these matters with you anymore because it merely leads to un-Christian behaviour. If you feel good about that sort of conversation, take it elsewhere.

Regards

 

[Imagican]

To sum up what I have so inadiquately been able to offer so far: Christ NEEDS no symbols or images to represent HIM. There is NOTHING that we, weak and ineffectual, are ABLE to 'create' that is ABLE to adequately sybolise Christ OR His Father. God is Spirit and His Son is BEYOND anything that exists on this earth.

To attempt to 'sybolize' Christ is to BELIEVE that WE TOO are 'the creator'. Whether it be in carvings that we NAME Christ or symbols that WE create and SAY have meanings that they may or may NOT indeed actually possess, Christ IS what He IS and WE are unable to portray such in ANYTHING made by OUR hands.

And in DEFENSE of the Catholic Church: I find it totally amusing that there would be SO MANY that would accuse them of creating 'false images' in their statuary and such yet BELIEVE that 'other kinds' of 'graven images' are OK. Graven images ARE what they ARE and it's really NOT that complex to any that wish to TRULY understand.

And Fran, I have NOT 'singled out' the Catholic Church in these regards. When I refer to 'churches', I refer to those institutions 'created by men', organized 'religions' that so proliferate in our world today. That 'almost' EVERYONE of them have roots in the Catholic Church by no means points a dirty finger in ANY direction except towards 'truth'.

And I DO understand how you MUST feel towards my words. For once I too found myself bound to my BELIEFS instead of that which is 'above' my OWN feelings and limited understanding. Fortunately we DO have a loving and forgiving Father who IS able to intervene and cleanse us of our 'selves'. So loving that He sent His ONLY BEGOTTEN Son so that THROUGH Him we may KNOW that there is 'something' BEYOND our own limited understanding and 'selves'. Love. That which is MOST important to our very existence. And to those that are able to grasp this: peace and contentment.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[francisdesales]

To sum up what I have so inadiquately been able to offer so far: Christ NEEDS no symbols or images to represent HIM.

Of course, but they are not offensive, since the Word of God came in the flesh, being made visible - while not "having to" do so. That's what love does - it goes beyond what is necessary, and that is what God chose to do. He also has allowed symbols to exist to point men to invisible realities, such as the Ark of the Covenant, the brass snake on a staff, and the Temple of Jerusalem, just to name a few.

There is NOTHING that we, weak and ineffectual, are ABLE to 'create' that is ABLE to adequately sybolise Christ OR His Father. God is Spirit and His Son is BEYOND anything that exists on this earth.

Symbols don't NEED to completely symbolize Christ or the Father. Seeing a statue of the Holy Family instills within us their holy lives together. A picture is worth a thousand words (or a thousand thoughts). Statues can help us to meditate more deeply on Godly realities.

To attempt to 'sybolize' Christ is to BELIEVE that WE TOO are 'the creator'.

No one believes that they are a 'creator' when they look at a statue or a picture of their cat...

And in DEFENSE of the Catholic Church: I find it totally amusing that there would be SO MANY that would accuse them of creating 'false images' in their statuary and such yet BELIEVE that 'other kinds' of 'graven images' are OK. Graven images ARE what they ARE and it's really NOT that complex to any that wish to TRULY understand.

Your definition of "graven images" is not the intent of Hebrew Scriptures. IF it was, then photography would be against the Commandments of God. Are you willing to enter into the Taliban ranks to make such claims?

And Fran, I have NOT 'singled out' the Catholic Church in these regards. When I refer to 'churches', I refer to those institutions 'created by men'...

Oh, then that leaves us out... Thanks for clarifying.

That 'almost' EVERYONE of them have roots in the Catholic Church by no means points a dirty finger in ANY direction except towards 'truth'.

Well, don't blame us entirely for Protestantism...

And I DO understand how you MUST feel towards my words. For once I too found myself bound to my BELIEFS instead of that which is 'above' my OWN feelings and limited understanding.

I am not convinced you have made that distinction.

Fortunately we DO have a loving and forgiving Father who IS able to intervene and cleanse us of our 'selves'. So loving that He sent His ONLY BEGOTTEN Son so that THROUGH Him we may KNOW that there is 'something' BEYOND our own limited understanding and 'selves'. Love. That which is MOST important to our very existence. And to those that are able to grasp this: peace and contentment.

You finally said something worthy of an offering to others...

Regards

 

[A-Christian]

Hello Francis and MEC.
Seems like old times watching your exchanges.
Hope you both are having a wonderful Christmas season.

 

[francisdesales]

Hello Francis and MEC.
Seems like old times watching your exchanges.
Hope you both are having a wonderful Christmas season.

Hey, haven't heard from you in awhile. Hope all is well and you also are enjoying the Christmas season.

Yes, our exchanges...

Death, taxes, and the arguments on Christian forums!

Regards