"Symbol of Christianity?"

[Imagican]

I have offered my message without involving a SINGLE individual by name. I have also spoken without regards to denomination or individual insult. What you have offered here is a direct attack against ME personally. Comparing my offerings against vanity and the Taliban is a bit extreme wouldn't you say?[/b]

I mention your name because you clearly look down upon anyone who doesn't adhere to your personal theological mistakes. I don't attack you personally, just the notion that we are to burn all our art and topple all cultural symbols.

I disagree. Offering the TRUTH is NOT 'looking down' upon others simply because they don't understand it.

I have yet to offer anything concerning 'what' we should DO with all the art that exists on this planet. What I have tried to offer is that those of the persuation to 'follow Christ' would have NO USE for such items. It is IMPOSSIBLE to become 'closer' to something that is 'falsely represented'. In other words: If God were a tree, and I taught that the image of an OAK was God. If God was actually a Dogwood, then my representation would MOST certainly BE a 'false symbol'.

Which, as it happens, is the same idea of the Taliban. Comparisons can be made because the end is the same. With your brow beating sermons and your idea that only you "UNDERSTAND" the Word of God, I can only imagine what sort of world you'd "make" if you had the power the Taliban had in Afghanistan... (note how I use the fancy "quotes and caps" around "understand"...)

Yes, all orthodox followers would most certainly BE considered 'extemist' by those that were of a more casual following.

Far be it Fran, i am CERTAINLY NOT the ONLY one that understands the Word of God. There are MANY others. But there are also many that have simply chosen to follow 'words of men' and in the process allowed themselves to become BLINDED to the Word.

You don't KNOW that anything you have offered in this statement has ANY bearing on TRUTH. As far as your statement is concerned it would be JUST as easy to say that these tools were offered by SATAN. For the tree of knowledge which we were COMMANDED NOT to partake of, would be the WAY in which we obtained the tools to which you refer.

Now that's just crazy talk. Again.

The Tree of Knowledge doesn't refer to building things, but the knowledge of good vs. evil.

So, let me get this straight: YOUR belief is that knowledge has NO bearing on 'creativity'? Now, who's talking 'crazy'?

I wonder if you have considered WHERE God recruited those builders to build the Ark of the Covenant, or Noah's Ark, or the Temple of Jerusalem? Are you seriously saying that man's skill to work with his hands is relegated to growing crops?

As far as you or I know, those that were designated to create objects FOR God were GIVEN the skills needed to produce the objects.

We do KNOW THIS; that MOST of the knowledge we have pertaining to objects of art and who created them was offered in Genesis AFTER the 'time in the garden'. I will leave it to YOU to read and discern WHO these items were created BY. Then YOU decide whether they were created by God-fearers or not, (By God-fearer I mean those that attempted to follow and PLEASE God).

:biglaugh

There IS a difference in HAVING these things and 'worshiping them'.

Now, if you only took your own advice to heart, this conversation would end.

None of us here worship the crosses around our necks or the statues in our churches, or paintings in our kitchen...

The rest ...

Have it your way. I am NOT here to convince YOU of ANYTHING. I am simply offering prudent advice for those that have not ALREADY been 'brainwashed' into believing in 'their OWN religion'. And as far as the 'screw loose'. I take that as a compliment. For those of this world WILL NOT understand or accept the things offered by God. I am quite sure that Christ AND His apostles were accused of the same and worse.

Funny, but I have BEEN to Catholic Churches and WATCHED the handling of beads and the bowing to statues. YOU can SAY anything but the actions speak WAY louder than words. I have WITNESSED the worshiping of objects that YOU would deny AS YOU are OFFERING such worship. The difference is you have allowed the TRUTH as to WHAT worship IS to be skewed in your mind and heart.

Gabriel has already answered. No one is "forcing" you to get a job, live in a house, or even wear clothes.

You are WRONG. I have NO choice to obey the law or suffer the consquences. I choose NOT to go to prison for tax evasion so I pay my taxes. I choose NOT to go to prison for 'running around naked', so I wear clothing. I choose to 'live in a home' rather than in prison so I abide by the 'laws of the land'.

You deny the very things of yourself that you accuse everyone else here of being guilty of. We don't have things to impress, even artwork. Some of us just enjoy it.

So, hopefully, you are beginning to see the hypocrisy of your point. According to every spiritual book that addresses the subject, self-delusion is the biggest and most difficult fault to combat.

So now I MUST be 'self-deluded' in order to SEE the truth? Question: HOW do we BEGIN to follow without first UNDERSTANDING?

Fran, you and I would have a difficult time agreeing on this and many issues. For YOU have chosen to follow 'other men' and what they have taught for about eighteen hundred years now. I, on the other hand, have chosen to follow 'no man'. That makes YOU unable to 'see beyond' that which you have been 'taught' by 'other men'. And leaves me open to whatever The Spirit chooses to reaveal. I didn't MAKE you follow the path that you have chosen so don't blame me for not being able to 'see'. That is something that you will have to deal with and is between you and God, not you and me.

I have simply stated what has already been offered in words throughout the Bible. That your 'religion' has chosen to IGNORE or alter these words is something that OUGHT to make you question the validity of that which you follow. Instead you would choose to ridicule the 'truth'. Hmmmm..............

Regards

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Free]

God IS THE Creator. When we attempt to usurp this authority, we find ourselves in utter contrast to HIS will.

You would contend that it's OK to create. I am of the OPPOSITE spectrum in that I BELIEVE that OUR purpose is to become CLOSER to God in ANY way that we are ABLE.

The creative 'arts' as you would have them is VANITY. It is US 'trying' to BE 'creators'. Yet there is ONLY ONE true Creator. Nothing that we are ABLE to do is able to compete with that which exists in OUR OWN CREATION. In other words; WE WERE CREATED. Everything that we are ABLE to DO was 'given to us'. Nothing NEW under the Sun.

And here is the obvious problem with your position: If you are not walking around completely naked, living out in the bush somewhere, killing animals with your bare hands, you are contradicting your entire argument.

You have zero biblical basis or support for your argument. You misunderstand the meaning of 'graven image' which is simply something made for the purpose of worshiping as a god, which is why it is a sin.

On the other hand, we are created in the image of the Creator, therefore, we are also creative beings. We have the God-given right, desire, and ability to create both for utility and for beauty. There are numerous evidences for this in Scripture. Our ability and desire to create in no way whatsoever is an attempt to usurp God in any way nor is it against his will (how can it be since it is God-given?). Again, the numerous examples in Scripture will bear this out. God never once condemns anyone for creating anything, other than for the purpose of worshiping it instead of Himself.

That is it. Period.

 

[St Francis]

MEC: Look at the inside of my church:
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=34449
Are you really going to say that beautiful sanctuary is "idolatrous"? Come on, man

 

[Imagican]

Free,

I believe the evidence is apparent to any and all that READ it:

3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.


Now, ask, WHERE does the dividing line separate that which is OK to 'create' and that which is NOT Ok? Do YOU believe that WE are able to discern such matters when we can't even agree that it IS a 'problem'?

That's EXACTLY what God has done 'since the beginning'. Instead of trying to explain things to a 'hard headed people' that wouldn't understand to START with, He has simply avoided the confusion by simply saying 'don't do it'.

We also have the evidence that the Jews who DISOBEYED these commandments payed dearly for their folly. Each and EVERY time that they decided to 'create graven images' this LEAD to their worship. And each and every time God sent His messengers to WARN those of their folly. Only to be ignored and suffer the wrath of God for the spirtual adutery.

Now, you tell me, where is the dividing line. How are WE to discern what IS ok and what is NOT ok. From the worlds view ANYTHING created by the hands of men IS 'art'. Including pornography, monsters, aliens, etc............. Do you honestly THINK that these things are inspired by God? If NOT God, then where does the inspiration COME FROM?

Now, do you honestly BELIEVE that it's OK for me to paint a picture of a MAN and call his name Jesus. To TEACH children that this painting IS a PICTURE OF JESUS? If so, then I contend that you are the same type person that would lie to your children about Santa Clause bringing them presents.

How can something UNRIGHTEOUS be justified in the minds and hearts of those that profess Christ AS their Savior? For an image of Christ, (when NO ONE knows what He looked like), can ONLY be a 'false image'. And if we look upon this image AS Christ, then we ARE indeed worshiping a 'false Christ'. This is apparent to ANYONE with the ability TO understand it. MOST do NOT choose to SEE.

now, WHAT is the 'purpose' of creating images of ANYTHING? I propose that it IS coveteousness. And coveteousness IS idolotry. If not coveteousness of the creator of the images, then for the PURPOSE of the coveteousness of the BUYER or receiver. Either way it works out to the SAME thing.

Now, what IS the deciding factor in the 'art' that one 'decides' to possess? What IS the compelling THING that 'brings one' to BUY or OWN a 'piece of art'? Answer this and you have the 'beginning' of understanding towards what I speak of. Find yourself unable or UNWILLING to ADMIT this answer, and you will REMAIN in the 'same' position that you are in 'right NOW'................

Blessings,

MEC

 

[francisdesales]

This does NOT say that we are NOT to make idols, it PLAINLY states that we are NOT to MAKE the objects. THEN it says that we are not to bow to them. There is a MAJOR difference that the Hebrews/Jews OBVIOUSLY understood. It wasn't until the Catholic Church introduced IT'S idols and taught the populace that it was OK did such 'creating of idols' become ACCEPTED among those that 'claimed' to follow Christ.

This line of talk is not allowed by the ToS. Try to keep your rants from spilling over into attacking other people's faith.

Regards

 

[St Francis]

....3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me....

And THAT, in a nutshell, is what idolatry is: Putting other things above God.

....4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image....

People who oppose religious statuary forget about the many passages where the Lord commands the making of statues. For example: "And you shall make two cherubim of gold [i.e., two gold statues of angels]; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece of the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be" (Ex. 25:18–20).

David gave Solomon the plan "for the altar of incense made of refined gold, and its weight; also his plan for the golden chariot of the cherubim that spread their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of the Lord. All this he made clear by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all, all the work to be done according to the plan" (1 Chr. 28:18–19). David’s plan for the temple, which the biblical author tells us was "by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all," included statues of angels.

Similarly Ezekiel 41:17–18 describes graven (carved) images in the idealized temple he was shown in a vision, for he writes, "On the walls round about in the inner room and [on] the nave were carved likenesses of cherubim."

....This does NOT say that we are NOT to make idols....

Yes it does. According to Strong’s Concordance, the original Hebrew words that were translated into “graven image†referred to "idols." Here is the concordance link:
http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexi ... ongs=06459

 

[francisdesales]

Offering the TRUTH is NOT 'looking down' upon others simply because they don't understand it.

What you perceive as "Truth" is not universally accepted. It is not objective truth, but YOUR opinion. Since humans realize they make mistakes and are not perfect, your interpretations of Scriptures are subject to the same possibility of mistake and error. As such, your "truth" is merely your own opinion. Once you start to realize that, you may begin to tone down your self-righteousness and attacks on other people's understanding of the same bible.

I have yet to offer anything concerning 'what' we should DO with all the art that exists on this planet.

That is incorrect. Your mere suggestions that having art is against the Law of God strongly suggests we are to get rid of it. Blow it up, like the Taliban... Defacing beauty is your idea of doing the will of God...?

It is IMPOSSIBLE to become 'closer' to something that is 'falsely represented'.

Baloney. How the heck would you know? You do not know what you are talking about. Millions of people vouch for the effectiveness of prayer cards, pictures, statues, icons and the like in bringing up a subject of meditation or as a reminder of devotion to the lifestyle of a particular saint - to mimic it in their walk with Christ. As usual, you pontificate on what you have no experience on.

Far be it Fran, i am CERTAINLY NOT the ONLY one that understands the Word of God.

There are many here who would posit that you do NOT understand the Word of God, and not just on this topic...

So, let me get this straight: YOUR belief is that knowledge has NO bearing on 'creativity'? Now, who's talking 'crazy'?

I'll repeat for you... THE TREE OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL...

Knowing right from wrong. Not being able to build or create.

As far as you or I know, those that were designated to create objects FOR God were GIVEN the skills needed to produce the objects.

OF COURSE! By God Himself. That is my point. God gives us ALL of our natural and supernatural gifts. Artists included...

We do KNOW THIS; that MOST of the knowledge we have pertaining to objects of art and who created them was offered in Genesis AFTER the 'time in the garden'. I will leave it to YOU to read and discern WHO these items were created BY. Then YOU decide whether they were created by God-fearers or not, (By God-fearer I mean those that attempted to follow and PLEASE God)

Are you saying the Ark of the Covenant and the Temple in Jerusalem were not created by God-fearers? You logic is always good for a laugh, I must admit...

Have it your way. I am NOT here to convince YOU of ANYTHING. I am simply offering prudent advice for those that have not ALREADY been 'brainwashed' into believing in 'their OWN religion'.

Like yourself? Haven't you been brainwashed into following your "OWN" religion? What exactly are you trying to say? We interpret Scriptures to mean something in particular, and that includes you. You lecture those who wear crosses and have statues and art. But you are not trying to convince anyone of anything???

:biglaugh

And as far as the 'screw loose'. I take that as a compliment.

Naturally... Self-delusion is usually a fundamental make-up of the extremist. They are right and everyone else is wrong. The delusion is so strong that no logic can loosen its hold on one's inflated ego. I present my arguments for others, to point out the silliness of your stance, since you are beyond any logical arguments I may present.

You are WRONG. I have NO choice to obey the law or suffer the consquences. I choose NOT to go to prison for tax evasion so I pay my taxes. I choose NOT to go to prison for 'running around naked', so I wear clothing. I choose to 'live in a home' rather than in prison so I abide by the 'laws of the land'.

The blood of the martyrs is the seed of Christanity. Many Christians went to jail or even died for their faith. Apparently, your faith isn't very strong if you continue to wear clothes that God has said was evil, live in a created buiding made by evil men with evil paint on the walls, or have a job and consort with evil people or pay taxes to support the evil arts...

Another option for you, if passive resistance is too much, is to become a hermit in the desert. Many Christians took up that way of life.

Put your money where your mouth is and practice what you preach.

So now I MUST be 'self-deluded' in order to SEE the truth? Question: HOW do we BEGIN to follow without first UNDERSTANDING?

No, you must NOT be self-deluded - although all of us are self-deluded in some way, which is why none of see the entire truth. We all tell ourselves we know this or that, that we are above or beyond other people's problems, we tend to overlook problems in ourselves but amplify them in others. All self-delusion. We must know ourselves to be released from delusion.

We don't need to fully understand God to begin to follow. Faith PRECEDES understanding.

Fran, you and I would have a difficult time agreeing on this and many issues. For YOU have chosen to follow 'other men' and what they have taught for about eighteen hundred years now. I, on the other hand, have chosen to follow 'no man'.

But yourself.

That makes YOU unable to 'see beyond' that which you have been 'taught' by 'other men'.

Actually, the opposite. I don't rely on my own self and poor abilities. You rely on yourself and your own understanding, effectively necessitating the re-invention of the wheel according to your image. Truth is objective, outside of ourselves, outside of our deluded understandings. Truth is obtained by going outside of ourselves, not by looking at the mirror and constructing it based on our own opinions. That is delusion.

And leaves me open to whatever The Spirit chooses to reaveal.

But not the Holy Spirit...

I didn't MAKE you follow the path that you have chosen so don't blame me for not being able to 'see'. That is something that you will have to deal with and is between you and God, not you and me.

I never said you did - so thank you. I don't recall blaming you for anything that went wrong in my life. Is your ego so huge that you think you are the in any way effecting my life?

I have simply stated what has already been offered in words throughout the Bible.

Words are subject to interpretation. Perhaps you need to consider reading OTHER parts of the bible, like when the People of Isreal bow to David or make statues of angels. I think you have a misconception of what "worship" is. You think whenever someone bows, they are worshiping someone as God. Basically, you think the English believe the Queen is God with that logic. God desires we show honor to other people. Bowing CAN be worship, but it ALSO can be a sign of respect and honor. You are confused because you see the outward sign, but do not know the inner disposition. Before you judge other people, you should take a deep breath and remember that.

That your 'religion' has chosen to IGNORE or alter these words is something that OUGHT to make you question the validity of that which you follow. Instead you would choose to ridicule the 'truth'. Hmmmm...

I ridicule your hypocrisy. Again. Not the Words of God.

In addition, in all the lecturing, you STILL have not addressed WHY you live in a world with art, clothes, and work at a job and have a cat - AND its picture!!!... Practice what you preach.

Regards

 

[Rick W]

This line of talk is not allowed by the ToS. Try to keep your rants from spilling over into attacking other people's faith.

Thanks francisdesales.
Post edited.

 

[Imagican]

Fran,

Is there a 'difference' in HOW we bow or to what? The commandment is pretty clear.

If I choose to create the 'image' of a man BEING God in the flesh, isn't bowing to this image WORSHIP? And isn't the 'graven image' even that which I create in SYBOLISM as well as 'material'?

The emperors of Rome CALLED themselves God and demanded that they BE worshiped AS God.

The emperors of Japan were 'considered' to BE God's and were worshiped as such.

Heck, even the Pope 'claims' to BE the 'vicor of Christ'. Has people BOW to him and 'kiss his hand'.
A perfect example of men making a 'thing of worship' of a 'symbol'.

The commandment is clear. We are to make NO 'false gods' or 'worship' them. PERIOD.

Now, you would contend that this means that NO man can be worshiped. I contend that it is up to God to instruct and NOT up to US to determine. If God sends His Son and ask that we BOW to HIM, then this is a DIFFERENT set of circumstances. Ours if to FOLLOW, not 'create'.

You seem to be of the 'mindset' that it's OK to disregard what is written in favor of BELIEF. That if something is offered that doesn't fit into your BELIEF, then it's irrelevant and able to be 'put aside' for the 'sake' of belief. That the words can manipulated at will for the sake of 'belief'.

I, on the other hand, do NOT choose to follow 'beliefs of others'. I simply ask and accept what is offered. Even those things that I have yet to be able to 'overcome', I ACCEPT, and deal with the guilt or conviction REGARDLESS.

The beginning of knoweldge STARTS with understanding. One can ONLY grow by LEARNING. And one must LEARN FIRST, BEFORE one IS able to GROW. If it is not God whose knowledge we choose to understand and follow, then it is that of MAN. And the knowledge of this world is USELESS except so far as THIS WORLD IS CONCERNED.

Do you think that a knowledge of quantum physics is going benefit ANYONE in heaven? Or how about accounting. Do you reacon that a formal education in accounting is going to benefit ANYONE in 'heaven'? There is NO difference in ANYTHING that this world has to offer. If it is NOT offered from above, then it is obtained THROUGH 'this world' and of little value so far as 'truth' is concerned. The TRUTH of this world, no doubt, but this world has already been judged to BE destroyed.

If, in your eyes, I MUST be a hypocrite for 'pointing out the truth', then so be it. We are ALL hypocrits to one degree or another. But I will NOT alter my understanding simply because I am UNABLE to 'live up to it'. In other words, I will NOT change my beliefs that STEALING is wrong even if I find myself UNABLE to KEEP from stealing. For WHEN I choose to convince myself that stealing is OK, then there is NOTHING that is able to deter me from that which is UNSEEMLY.

So, there ARE things that I UNDERSTAND and am UNABLE to faithfully fulfill. I will openly admit this without any argument. But I will NOT disregard that which I KNOW simply to appease my OWN WILL. I will simply suffer the consequences and HOPE that my God is able to bring about the changes in MY life that He sees fit. Not MY will, but HIS be done. Mine is but to follow where HE leads.

But, I have witnessed that MANY religions are able to lead others into beliefs that satify their itching ears. That they are able to lead others into beliefs that contradict that which has been offered in truth for the sake of flesh. For these, there is ONLY ONE GOD. And that God is whatever their 'hearts desire'. Whether it be gold or silver, sex or drugs, power or glory, WHATEVER it is that offers their 'hearts desire'. These 'things' are NOT from 'above' and can lead in ONLY one direction.

Symbols of Christianity? Only in the minds and hearts of feeble men that choose to place their faith in the material rather than in that which IS Spiritual. For we are UNABLE to accurately portray a sybolic representation of ANYTHING spiritual through the material world in which we live.

We can CERTAINLY 'create' and influence others in false beliefs in OBJECTS that are OF this world. We are CERTAINLY able to 'convince SOME' that these items have significance so far as God is concerned. But the truth is that the Spirit is WITHIN and NOTHING of this material world is able to mimic ANYTHING of heaven.

We can see that ALL religions, including EVERY pagan religion that has EVER existed USE these means of 'symbolism' in their rites and pagentry. Do you HONESTLY think that TRUTH has ANY relationship to that which has been 'created' by MEN?

We are NOT our OWN Gods' able to follow in truth as WE see fit. We have NO true 'power' other than that offered by GOD Himself. On this earth, in this life, there is certainly the ability to manipulate others. With enough energy and effort, some are even able to exhibit the ability to grant or deny phsical life itself. But this is STILL mere illusion in the 'big picture'. For this life is ONLY THE BEGINNING. And for ever effort placed in that which is NOT truth, there will come a reaconing and a HEALING in understanding one day. Our only hope is that upon that time we are NOT forced to condemn ourselves for the 'choices' that we have made.

One day each and every eye will be opened. Understanding will be a 'given' and NOT up to personal interpretation. And on that day there WILL BE much sorrow and gnashing of teeth. For the answers were there all along. And what a state of misery for those that recognize that this knowledge was knocking at their hearts but their desire kept the truth from becoming manifest in their understanding.

 

[francisdesales]

Fran,

Is there a 'difference' in HOW we bow or to what? The commandment is pretty clear.

Where is the command to "not bow"? And yes, there is a difference...

If I choose to create the 'image' of a man BEING God in the flesh, isn't bowing to this image WORSHIP? And isn't the 'graven image' even that which I create in SYBOLISM as well as 'material'?

We don't bow with the intent of worshiping the statue, but the prototype it represents.

The emperors of Rome CALLED themselves God and demanded that they BE worshiped AS God.

I think you are confused on what emperor "worship" is.

The emperors of Japan were 'considered' to BE God's and were worshiped as such.

Shintoism view these things differently, so there is no point in going into how the divine is present in ALL things for them.

Heck, even the Pope 'claims' to BE the 'vicor of Christ'. Has people BOW to him and 'kiss his hand'.
A perfect example of men making a 'thing of worship' of a 'symbol'.

Perhaps you didn't get the memo on the ToS? Is there a possibility you do not know about speaking of Catholicism that would lead to debate?

The commandment is clear. We are to make NO 'false gods' or 'worship' them. PERIOD.

We don't. PERIOD.

Now, you would contend that this means that NO man can be worshiped. I contend that it is up to God to instruct and NOT up to US to determine.

Unless it interferes with your preconceived notions... THEN, you overrule God.

You seem to be of the 'mindset' that it's OK to disregard what is written in favor of BELIEF.

Kettle, meet pot... Where does it say not to "bow" to anyone in the Bible? Where does it say not to make art for the purpose of enjoying the aesthetically pleasing features of God's creation represented through another medium? It says we shall not make gods to worship. You are misinterpreting the Scriptures and God's Word.

I, on the other hand, do NOT choose to follow 'beliefs of others'.

I know. You only follow you own deluded ideas. We all are deluded, to a degree. The problem is that you don't realize it, so everything you merry mind comes up with is "from God". And thus, you place in large caps about "ACCEPTING God's WORD, because I UNDERSTAND God and I FOLLOW only God. Meanwhile, you FOLLOW a RELIGION and NOT God...."

Blah, blah, blah... :drool

By capitalizing random verbs, you think you somehow have some superior insight?

The beginning of knoweldge STARTS with understanding. One can ONLY grow by LEARNING. And one must LEARN FIRST, BEFORE one IS able to GROW. If it is not God whose knowledge we choose to understand and follow, then it is that of MAN. And the knowledge of this world is USELESS except so far as THIS WORLD IS CONCERNED.

Eh?

If, in your eyes, I MUST be a hypocrite for 'pointing out the truth', then so be it.

You aren't pointing out the truth. And that is the sad problem. You don't realize it, and in your stubborness, you refuse to consider that you are wrong. Self-deluded extremists rarely consider they are wrong. For some reason, they believe God and their own personal thoughts are matching, so what they say, it is God saying it. The problem with that notion is that YOU are not the pillar and foundation of the truth. The Body of Christ, the Church is. When the Church as an entire body disagrees with this notion, throughout time and space, that art is to be discarded because it MIGHT lead to worship, we can be certain that anyone who invents the idea that we should blow up or eliminate art is merely speaking their own deviated opinion in an attempt to sway the immature children of Christ who may actually fall for your convuluted logic that YOU YOURSELF do not practice...

The Spirit is more readily identifiable through hundreds of years and millions of people who, in unision, cry out to the heavens that "Imagican" is following ANOTHER spirit...

We are ALL hypocrits to one degree or another. But I will NOT alter my understanding simply because I am UNABLE to 'live up to it'. In other words, I will NOT change my beliefs that STEALING is wrong even if I find myself UNABLE to KEEP from stealing. For WHEN I choose to convince myself that stealing is OK, then there is NOTHING that is able to deter me from that which is UNSEEMLY.

That's the thing. You WON'T alter your understanding, because you "think" God has already spoken to you. In your pride, you will not listen to the fact that you may be wrong.

Symbols of Christianity? Only in the minds and hearts of feeble men that choose to place their faith in the material rather than in that which IS Spiritual. For we are UNABLE to accurately portray a sybolic representation of ANYTHING spiritual through the material world in which we live.

What degree of "accuracy" is required to accurately portray something in the spiritual realm? Considering that things in the spiritual world HAVE no form, you literally cannot. However, particular art CAN portray emotions and concepts that point to spiritual realities. For example, portraying Christ with a kind face points to a spiritual reality of the type of person Christ is. It doesn't NEED to "accurately" show the dimensions of Christ beard or the color of His eyes. All that is important in art is whether it yields a particular emotion or feeling within another person.

Regards

 

[St Francis]

...Heck, even the Pope 'claims' to BE the 'vicor of Christ'. Has people BOW to him and 'kiss his hand'.....

So. People bow before the Queen of England when she bestows Knighthood on someone, and they call her "Your Majesty." Some things are just part of the pomp and circumstance of office. No need to get frazzled about it.

 

[Rick W]

totopic

 

[Imagican]

....3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me....

And THAT, in a nutshell, is what idolatry is: Putting other things above God.

....4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image....

People who oppose religious statuary forget about the many passages where the Lord commands the making of statues. For example: "And you shall make two cherubim of gold [i.e., two gold statues of angels]; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece of the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be" (Ex. 25:18–20).

I have 'forgotten' NOTHING. If you will kindly read back a page or so you will see that I addressed this issue MORE than once.

David gave Solomon the plan "for the altar of incense made of refined gold, and its weight; also his plan for the golden chariot of the cherubim that spread their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of the Lord. All this he made clear by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all, all the work to be done according to the plan" (1 Chr. 28:18–19). David’s plan for the temple, which the biblical author tells us was "by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all," included statues of angels.

And WHERE did David obtain his plan? By the 'hand of the Lord'. NOT of David's OWN design, but one offered to him BY GOD.

I have tried and tried to point out the distinction between OUR 'creations' and those of God's. HIS will be done, NOT OURS.

Question: Do you believe that EVERY piece of 'religious art' IS the inspiration of God Himself?

Similarly Ezekiel 41:17–18 describes graven (carved) images in the idealized temple he was shown in a vision, for he writes, "On the walls round about in the inner room and [on] the nave were carved likenesses of cherubim."

Once again, you offer the answer in your own WORDS: Ezekiel was 'shown in a VISION'.....

....This does NOT say that we are NOT to make idols....

Yes it does. According to Strong’s Concordance, the original Hebrew words that were translated into “graven image†referred to "idols." Here is the concordance link:
http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexi ... ongs=06459

So you accept and BELIEVE 'everything' offered in Strong's Concordinance? I have a BRAND NEW one for sale right now. Barely been used. For a concordinance is NO BETTER than those that create it. And due to the amount of information contained within it, I can ASSURE you that MUCH of it was simply placed there according to POPULAR belief and NOT through actual research. This making it JUST another group of words offered by MEN who may or may NOT have had any other undertanding than that which had been 'taught' to them through their 'churches'.

So come now, graven image is 'self explanatory'. Graven being; carved, etched, molded, MADE BY THE HANDS OF MEN. I am QUITE sure that if you were to ask any Jewish individual who FOLLOWS Judaic beliefs, they will be able to explain it to you MUCH better than I. And I can assure you that they will tell you that a 'graven image' is EXACTLY what the words imply; made by the hands of men.

From what you have offered the words would be a 'double take'. For IF 'graven image' meant idol, then the next words would simply BE repeating themselves.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Gabe]

Many practicing Jews (including Orthodox) accept the star of David as a symbol of their faith. How is that any different than a cross?

 

[Imagican]

Fran,

In order to keep this post as short as possible I have simply answered each paragraph of your reply in order. I know it will be a bit difficult to follow without 'going back' to read your reponses, it is better this way in keeping it down to as close to reasonable as possible. Good luck.........

You are ABSOLUTELY right. MUCH of the truth that exists on this planet is NOT 'universally accepted'. That doesn't take away from it BEING the truth. And YES, from YOUR perspective, (and I'm quite sure that of many others), what I have offered IS mere 'speculation'. That is for those that are ABLE to discern. I am NOT here to CHANGE 'anyone'. I am simply offering information that you may either accept or reject. But I have certainly planted the seed that has been give me to plant. Who waters it, or if it is EVEN watered, is not for me to discern.

NO, I have suggested NOTHING of the sort. I have simply 'tried' to place it in it's PROPER perspective. We, as Christians, ARE to become 'separate' from 'this world'. You CANNOT have it BOTH ways. Either your heart has been altered and you have become a 'different creation' or you are STILL a 'creation of this world'. That is EXACTLY what the Bible states. Not my words. And IF you have become a 'new creature', then you no longer follow the rudiments of this world. That IS how it works.

But there will certainly be many that believe and teach 'something DIFFERENT than this. For there will certainly be many that choose to follow 'their desires' rather than those of the Father OR The Son.

And MANY people swear that marble statues BLEED and that a loaf of bread contains upon it's crust the 'face of Jesus'. And let us NOT forget 'Bigfoot' and the Loch Ness Monster. Or, better yet, ever hear the word 'placebo'? Know what it means? So, people vouching for the effectiveness of ANYTHING has little bearing on whether it ACTUALLY exists or not.

Yeah, i guess if I don't follow YOUR faith that I CANNOT have ANY experience in ANYTHING that matters, RIGHT?

Once again, you are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. More that would DISAGREE with MUCH of my understanding that agree with it. But that comes as NO surprise to me. It's been that way since I began to 'walk'.

Fran, where would we be TODAY if Christ had simply come to this earth to AGREE with others rather than TEACH?

The 'tree of knowledge' was JUST that: information of good AND evil. One could NOT have created EVIL previous to the KNOWLEDGE being of obtained OF evil. And you STILL don't 'get it'.

Ah, so the 'guy that creates pornography' and calls it 'art' was given this 'talent' by God Himself? Hmmmmm............ I would have a hard time accepting this. As a matter of FACT, the REASON that the 'tree' was denied us at the time of Adam and Eve was that they had NO defense against the KNOWLEDGE that it contained, (they weren't MATURE enough in love to be able to discern the difference between 'self love' and TRUE love. Therefore they were WIDE open to the influence of 'outside sources' to 'guide their understanding of KNOWLEDGE of 'good and evil'). ALL of what 'you would call talent' does NOT 'come from God'. For MUCH of what we ARE is devised by 'our OWN hearts'.

Once again, you would try to entertwine that created directly through the orders OF God to that which is created by individuals through their OWN design. There is a BIG difference. That you don't understand this just goes to SHOW why God offered the commandment that He did in the FIRST place. For if you are unable to understand the difference then HOW are YOU to discern that which IS indeed the 'will of God' from that which is NOT?

You can 'call it that'. However, I don't chooe to consider what I follow 'religion'. Religion is 'man made' and truth IS truth. I don't CHOOSE to interpret scripture. I allow it to be interpreted FOR me. For I am NOTHING and UNABLE to DO anything that MATTERS. I simply ALLOW myself to BE what I am LED to BE. It's really just about a 'matter of TRUST'. Either you DO or you DON'T. I have been PROMISED by my God that ALL I have to do is ASK and I will 'receive'. But what is paramont to the receiving IS BELIEVING. That is IMPOSSIBLE to TRULY DO without FIRST having FAITH.

If my words are ABLE to enlighten then so be it. If not, then I have done what I am able. I am ONLY able to 'plant the seed'. Whether God sees fit to send someone ELSE along to water it is NOT of my choosing. If my words offer NO understanding in the minds and hearts of those that hear them, that is not of MY accord. For I am ONLY able to offer what I am ABLE to offer.

You call this 'lecturing'. I call it offering. Who is correct I'll leave to the minds and hearts of those that read to discern.

Christ DEMANDS 'extremists' from 'your point of view'. I simply choose to understand and FOLLOW to the BEST of my ability. Where I am weak I ask for strength. When I cannot alter something in my life, I ask that God DO IT FOR ME. So far, it has worked out rather effectively. But then I BELIEVE that when I ASK it WILL be delivered. That IS the KEY.

And Fran, I'll BET that if you had encountered an APOSTLE that you would have had the SAME argument. Since GOD had NOT chosen to reveal DIRECTLY to YOU what had been offered to them, they would have HAD to be WRONG. Yet the entire time they would have been offering you EXACTLY the SAME thing that God had offered THEM. Blindness is the cost of a 'closed heart'.

Uh oh, you don't REALLY want to 'go there' and we have been INSTRUCTED that these forums WON'T 'put up with it'. I have done EVERYTHING withing my ability to leave what you would attempt to draw out OUT of this conversation. I will continue to abide by the rules of this forum.

God has NOT stated that 'clothing' is EVIL. But the LOVE of it MOST certainly IS. God has NOT stated that I am NOT to live in a structure or that it is EVIL to do so. But to LOVE the structure that I live in is MOST certainly idolotry. I have been COMMANDED to feed myself with my OWN hands. But I can assure you that MANY will NEVER see heaven for the 'work' that they CHOOSE to DO.
Christ Himself offered that we are to 'render to Caesear what BELONGS to him'. I have YET to created ANY money so therefore it is of none effect to pay what I owe to the government who DOES create it. I do not support ANY arts through direct intention.

Well now, WHO are you to say that I do NOT live as CLOSE to what I offer as I am ABLE?

Very good. Faith DOES come first. But tell me this: Isn't it MUCH easier to follow that which you understand than that which you DON'T? And you speak of 'beginning'. Faith IS 'first'. But we are NOT to remain constantly 'as babes'. We ARE given to TOOLS to 'grow' and that IS EXPECTED of us. Paul pointed this out quite CLEARLY. And HOW do we GROW? Through UNDERSTANDING.

You continually state that I am a 'religion of one' and that my understanding is ONLY 'my own'. I contend that, once again, you would choose to defend 'religion' rather than accept the 'truth'. Under such circumstances you could ONLY see me in such light.

See, since what I offer differs from what you have been 'taught' and 'accepted', it MUST be ME that is deluded. I have already 'tried' to explain that the understanding that I offer is NOT MINE. It was 'given me'. If I were offering MY understanding it would MUCH more closely resemble YOURS than that which I offer.

I speak in reference to your 'understanding'. That you have chosen to allow a 'certain path' to determine that which you are ABLE to understand is what has limited your 'ability' to DO so. That is the SAME with EVERYONE that chooses to follow men rather than God Himself.

To 'covet' IS to worship. We worship that which we ADORE, (love). But in order to understand ANY of this we must FIRST come to an understanding of LOVE. I cannot teach this for that is the diffference between a 'hardened heart' and one that is APPROACHABLE by God.

No, I have simply NOT allowed MEN to teach me that worship is ANYTHING other than what it TRULY IS. I do NOT mince words here, YOU do. YOU have chosen to BELIEVE the misconceptions taught to you by OTHERS. God is VERY clear on the meaning of WORSHIP.

Beware of that which you refuse to hear. For God instructs those that He LOVES. And those that harden their hearts are rarely able to HEAR that which God has to 'say' to them. And, I can ASSURE you that throughout HISTORY God has rarely SPOKEN to ANYONE. He speaks His will through 'those that He CHOOSES'.

The world that I live in is NOT 'MY World'. I was PLACED here for a PURPOSE.

Fran, I was once quite an ACCOMPLISHED artist; I couldn't tell you how many people to this day that are still walking around with tatoos on themselves that were created by me, (nope, not a tatoo artist but have sold quite a bit of such 'artwork' to those tha desired it). I was accomplished in practically EVERY dicipline other than sculpture, (pretty good at this TOO but found other forms much more pleasing to MYSELF). Pen and ink, oils and acrylics, from classic realism to varied forms of abstract and modern stuff.

Now, the enlightenment: Do you know WHAT my 'inspiration was'? The ability to impress MYSELF and OTHERS with my 'creations'. For 'that FEELING' was the closest to BEING God that I was able to elicite in myself and THROUGH others. I can still remember the 'feeling' when others would adore, (worship), that which I 'created'. I know, crazy huh?

Now that that is out of the way: I ask this: do you HONESTLY think that I am here 'just speaking words' without any understanding of what I speak?

How about this: WHY do you reacon Saul was CHOSEN to 'spread God's Word'? He openly admitted that he was NOT a 'good speaker'. He openly admitted that he was CHEIFEST of sinners at one time. So WHY do you suppose God chose HIM of all people? Answer this and you will have come to a 'deeper understanding'.

Oh, and the picture of the cat? I find it 'amusing' and thought others might as well. My cat is one of my buddies.

I could just as easily have posted one of MY pieces of 'art', one of MY personal creations, (for MUCH of what I once created would be considred by MANY to BE 'religious'. Little did they know, for ALL of it WAS 'religious'). Stuff that people would have said, 'WOW, that's REALLY something 'special', not even realizing the influence or TRUE purpose of it's existence.

But that is WHY I no longer 'create' such images. I have yet to destroy ALL of them. Still a fondness of the memories that has NOT been 'taken away' YET. But I can assure you that it's ONLY a matter of time. They are NOT displayed, however and sit behind closet doors collecting dust, (where they belong, for now).

I do have a 'family crest' hanging in my living room that was 'hand carved' in Taiwan, specifically commissioned by my mother, and one of the few things that I have from her. One of a kind carved out of a piece of two inch thick teakwood that was once a part of a Chinese 'junk', (ship). My wife has accused me of the same thing that you have, (practice what you preach), and one day it will be given to my son. But NOT yet............ Other than that and a couple still lifes, my house is rather bare of 'artwork'.

The information that I offer has NOT come without a 'price'. For I was once steeped in arts of varied sorts. I performed 'magic' for MUCH of my life and have abandoned this 'art' as well. NOT for the sake of 'self' but for the sake of the 'art' itself'. For what I have offered is UNDERSTANDING and NOT simply 'words'.

Take it for what it's worth. If you 'believe' that you are able to live IN this world collecting and participating in it's trappings then 'more power to you'. I have learned that it's practically impossible to BE anything other than what you CHOOSE to be. And I find that the trappings of this world have a 'way' of BECOMING what we ARE if that is what we CHOOSE to BE.

Perfection? Not likely. But the MORE we are ABLE to separate ourselves the CLOSER we are ABLE to become. Perhaps when we come to a COMPLETE understanding we will be able to resist the allure of the material. But UNTIL we are able to reach this point, all that we allow to interfere WILL impede our walk to one extent or another. Our objective should be to get CLOSER. The MORE we allow 'in between' the HARDER it is NOT to let it interfere. And that pertains to ANYTHING material that exists.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[francisdesales]

We, as Christians, ARE to become 'separate' from 'this world'. You CANNOT have it BOTH ways. Either your heart has been altered and you have become a 'different creation' or you are STILL a 'creation of this world'. That is EXACTLY what the Bible states. Not my words. And IF you have become a 'new creature', then you no longer follow the rudiments of this world. That IS how it works.

I agree we are supposed to be "apart" from the ways of the world. This has little bearing on the topic of whether it is licit to wear a cross to show our love of God.

Yeah, i guess if I don't follow YOUR faith that I CANNOT have ANY experience in ANYTHING that matters, RIGHT?

That's not what I said, Mike. I said you are criticizing something you haven't experienced. I didn't say that you haven't experienced anything that matters...

The 'tree of knowledge' was JUST that: information of good AND evil. One could NOT have created EVIL previous to the KNOWLEDGE being of obtained OF evil. And you STILL don't 'get it'.

The tree of knowledge is a way of saying that Adam and Eve learned what sin was by experience. Nothing about knowledge on building pyramids or artwork.

Even you have to admit that is not supported by the Scriptures.

Ah, so the 'guy that creates pornography' and calls it 'art' was given this 'talent' by God Himself?

It is an unfair contrast to comment on pornography and religious art as if they are similar and sinful. Pornography is of itself sinful, as it brings about sinful desires within the viewer. It treats women like things and causes lust. That is its INTENT. Religious art has no sinful intent. Quite the opposite. It's intent is to move the mind to God, a most virtuous occupation.

ALL of what 'you would call talent' does NOT 'come from God'. For MUCH of what we ARE is devised by 'our OWN hearts'.

To include our opinions on whether all art is sinful.

Once again, you would try to entertwine that created directly through the orders OF God to that which is created by individuals through their OWN design. There is a BIG difference. That you don't understand this just goes to SHOW why God offered the commandment that He did in the FIRST place. For if you are unable to understand the difference then HOW are YOU to discern that which IS indeed the 'will of God' from that which is NOT?

The will of God does not state we are not to create art. It says not to worship false idols.

You can 'call it that'. However, I don't chooe to consider what I follow 'religion'. Religion is 'man made' and truth IS truth. I don't CHOOSE to interpret scripture. I allow it to be interpreted FOR me.

By yourself.

For I am ONLY able to offer what I am ABLE to offer.

Which is not the Word of God. It is your opinion of what the Word of God states, which is incorrect.

Christ DEMANDS 'extremists' from 'your point of view'. I simply choose to understand and FOLLOW to the BEST of my ability.

But we have established that you do not literally follow your own "offerings". You live in a world of art and use it daily. Beauty is something that is from God. The image of beauty found in man-made works is not evil in of itself. Like ALL things good, man can manipulate or twist things to evil means. That doesn't mean we get rid of everything that could potentially cause evil. That is totally unrealistic. You would have to move to the desert and live as a hermit, if you really believed that. I presume you are not ready to make that committment yet.

And Fran, I'll BET that if you had encountered an APOSTLE that you would have had the SAME argument. Since GOD had NOT chosen to reveal DIRECTLY to YOU what had been offered to them, they would have HAD to be WRONG. Yet the entire time they would have been offering you EXACTLY the SAME thing that God had offered THEM. Blindness is the cost of a 'closed heart'.

I posit that you are blind in your interpretation.

God has NOT stated that 'clothing' is EVIL. But the LOVE of it MOST certainly IS. God has NOT stated that I am NOT to live in a structure or that it is EVIL to do so. But to LOVE the structure that I live in is MOST certainly idolotry. I have been COMMANDED to feed myself with my OWN hands. But I can assure you that MANY will NEVER see heaven for the 'work' that they CHOOSE to DO.

You are on to something. Now, let's continue with your line of thought...

God has NOT stated that art is evil. But the "LOVE" of it most certainly is...

As such, there is not a need to get rid of art, clothes, houses, etc. We are called to keep God first, not to remove everything from our lives that is not God.

Very good. Faith DOES come first. But tell me this: Isn't it MUCH easier to follow that which you understand than that which you DON'T?

Of course. I am merely saying that we don't have to fully understand something BEFORE having faith.

You continually state that I am a 'religion of one' and that my understanding is ONLY 'my own'. I contend that, once again, you would choose to defend 'religion' rather than accept the 'truth'. Under such circumstances you could ONLY see me in such light.

I haven't seen anything that would lead me to think you are the bearer of truth, while the Church is not. The Bible itself calls the Spirit the bearer of Truth, who abides within the Church. Thus, I am safe when I listen to the Church and her teachings, since she teaches the Truth. When you teach things that disagree with that, I am safe to say you are incorrect and are only preaching your understanding, fraught with misunderstandings, incorrect presumptions and miscellaneous problems that all men on their own are subject to when trying to understand something.

See, since what I offer differs from what you have been 'taught' and 'accepted', it MUST be ME that is deluded.

I have given you my reason why I don't believe what you teach. And man was to listen to EVERY crackpot that came along with your "I am the truth" notion, we'd get nowhere. People who claim they preach the truth should be measured based upon what truth we already know. Your "truth" doesn't measure up to what we already know. The Bible doesn't support your notion of truth, and as such, we are safe to ignore your version of the truth.

I speak in reference to your 'understanding'. That you have chosen to allow a 'certain path' to determine that which you are ABLE to understand is what has limited your 'ability' to DO so. That is the SAME with EVERYONE that chooses to follow men rather than God Himself.

I am following God's Church, you are following yourself. Simple enough, except for the self-deluded. God is not a God of error or confusion. God has already taught us something, something different than what you are teaching. As such, either the entire Church is wrong or you are wrong. I'm going with "you are wrong".

To 'covet' IS to worship.

No, it's not. Coveting is not worshiping. Coveting is a separate sin covered by a different commandment/commandments. The commandment on coveting would be redundant if you were correct. The commandments are not redundant, they deal with separate sins.

We worship that which we ADORE, (love).

Again, no we don't. Your definition of "worship" is incorrect. I can love my wife, but I don't consider her God. I am able to make that distinction.

You love your cat. Does that mean you worship it??? Are the photographs you have of the pussy cat "graven images"???

But in order to understand ANY of this we must FIRST come to an understanding of LOVE. I cannot teach this for that is the diffference between a 'hardened heart' and one that is APPROACHABLE by God.

It would be nice if you could speak to me without the condescending attitude. I've been ignoring it up until now, but I can see it is part of your little scheme, part of the personality that is required to set your will up against what God has already taught. Part of the ego-complex necessary to think one is "sent by God to preach the truth", despite what God has already said, requires condescension towards any of the "heathen" who refuse to convert and follow in lock-step with the self-proclaimed prophet...

As such, I'll end it here. I'm not about to drink the kool-aid, just because you said it's OK...

Regards

 

[St Francis]

Ah, so the 'guy that creates pornography' and calls it 'art' was given this 'talent' by God Himself?

Actually, YES, he was. But he uses his God-given talent for evil instead of good. The same goes for musicians who play Satanic rock; they do the same thing.

 

[St Francis]

One thing to remember about images:
What was the reason God gave for not making images of him? It was because He had not appeared to man. In Deteronomy 4:15-16 God says:

"You saw no form of any kind the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman"

Well, that is no longer true, because God took on flesh became man. We could now see God, touch God, share bread with God. And we can make an image of that which was put before our eyes without it being an idol.

 

[francisdesales]

One thing to remember about images:
What was the reason God gave for not making images of him? It was because He had not appeared to man. In Deteronomy 4:15-16 God says:

"You saw no form of any kind the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman"

Well, that is no longer true, because God took on flesh became man. We could now see God, touch God, share bread with God. And we can make an image of that which was put before our eyes without it being an idol.

Excellent point. St. John Damascene makes the same connection to defend the use of icons and such.

Regards

 

[MarkT]

One thing to remember about images:
What was the reason God gave for not making images of him? It was because He had not appeared to man. In Deteronomy 4:15-16 God says:

"You saw no form of any kind the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman"

Well, that is no longer true, because God took on flesh became man. We could now see God, touch God, share bread with God. And we can make an image of that which was put before our eyes without it being an idol.

He wasn't put before your eyes, was he? The true image of God is inside. So then it's not necessary to make an imaginary representation of God or Jesus Christ who is the likeness of God. Seeing it is not seeing God. Touching it is not touching God. Sharing bread with it is not sharing bread with God. Now maybe you know that. But some people don't, and they get the wrong idea about us.