"Symbol of Christianity?"

[Imagican]

Many practicing Jews (including Orthodox) accept the star of David as a symbol of their faith. How is that any different than a cross?

let me add this: Many Orthodox Jews DON'T use the 'star of David' as symbol of their faith. I don't believe that it IS 'any different' than a 'cross' so far as BOTH being 'graven images'.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

One thing to remember about images:
What was the reason God gave for not making images of him? It was because He had not appeared to man. In Deteronomy 4:15-16 God says:

"You saw no form of any kind the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman"

Well, that is no longer true, because God took on flesh became man. We could now see God, touch God, share bread with God. And we can make an image of that which was put before our eyes without it being an idol.

Excellent point. St. John Damascene makes the same connection to defend the use of icons and such.

Rediculous point. For, even IF Jesus WERE God in the flesh, He did NOT appear as ANYTHING other than the Son of God. Not ONCE did Christ state that He was God in the image of a man. You sure take a few 'words', interpret them, and then 'stretch them beyond recognition'. ('Talk about 'personal' interpretation'............)

You would make a 'mockery' of the Word. For the Word states without ANY confusion that NO MAN has EVER seen God in HIs Glory. The TRUE God. Only Moses, of ALL men, has seen ANY PART of God.

Hey, to each his own when it comes to belief. But we are here on a CHRISTIAN web forum, NOT a CATHOLIC forum. It seems as though certain beiefs should be a 'given'. One would expect this to be without conflict. The Word IS The Word. So REGARDLESS of 'belief', when discussing such issues, the LEAST we should do is abide by the FACT that the Word IS The Word.

So, you guys are certainly able to 'rub each others backs' when making statemensts and points such as the 'one above', but please, in order to KEEP this from becoming a debate between Catholics and NON-Catholics, those things that do NOT have ANY Biblical backing and based ENTIRELY upon YOUR 'beliefs' should be kept in discussion among yourselves.

We have been TOLD by God through His many prophets and such that He is NOT physical. That He IS Spirit. If this is to be accepted AS truth, then NO ONE is able to accurate portray Him as ANYTHING likening to MAN. Us being created in 'His image' may have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with PHYSICAL APPEARANCE. This is pretty cut and dry when we consider the words that I OPENED this paragraph with.

And it's REALLY NO DIFFERENT with Christ. To paint a picture or carve a statue that is 'suppose' to 'represent' an individual, of what ACTUAL significance could it POSSIBLY serve if the person carving or painting has NO IDEA what Christ ACTUALLY looked like. You could certainly SAY that Christ COULD inspire someone and include His own image in their minds. But the TRUTH is, that you have NO PROOF to even indicate that such has EVER HAPPENED. It would be mere speculation to say that something of this sort were even feasable.

If Christ had WANTED others to worship His 'image', I am quite sure that He wouldn't have WAITED hundreds or even thousands of years to reveal that image. We find NO images of Christ until HUNDREDS of years AFTER His DEATH. And the one's that were first introduced were CERTAINLY not introduced by His 'Jewish followers', (apostles etc...).

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

I REALLY wish that I had more time to 'keep up' with this topic. I feel that is an EXTREMELY important one that is rarely discussed and, what's MORE important, discussed in a manner WORTHY of it's importance.

But my 'computer croaked' and I have yet to figure out what actually happened to it. I'm down to 'motherboard' or 'processor' so it shouldn't be long now. In the mean time, I've been ONLY able to get one the net when I use my 'father in law's' computer. It's a 'laptop' and to me, they are really a 'pain'. I'm use to NORMAL keyboards and MICES and his only has the 'touch thingy' and the most bizaar keyboard that I have ever encountered. Call me 'sheltered' but give me the 'normal' stuff that I'm accoustomed to and I'm a MUCH happier camper.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Gabe]

Many practicing Jews (including Orthodox) accept the star of David as a symbol of their faith. How is that any different than a cross?

let me add this: Many Orthodox Jews DON'T use the 'star of David' as symbol of their faith. I don't believe that it IS 'any different' than a 'cross' so far as BOTH being 'graven images'.

MEC

You failed to add that this statement made by you....

So come now, graven image is 'self explanatory'. Graven being; carved, etched, molded, MADE BY THE HANDS OF MEN. I am QUITE sure that if you were to ask any Jewish individual who FOLLOWS Judaic beliefs, they will be able to explain it to you MUCH better than I. And I can assure you that they will tell you that a 'graven image' is EXACTLY what the words imply; made by the hands of men.

....is a load of nonsense, as is your definition of a 'graven image'.

Gabriel

 

[Arj]

I used to wear a cross untill i was born again.Then i started wearing my cross in my heart instead.

 

[Gabe]

I used to wear a cross untill i was born again.Then i started wearing my cross in my heart instead.

Great. Personally, I’ve never tried to wear a metaphorical cross around my neck.

Here is Mike's definition of a 'graven image'.

Graven Image: ANYTHING made by the hands of MEN that resembles ANYTHING either LIVING or DEAD. And that's a LITERAL; ANYTHING. Carving, sculpture, drawing, painting, casting, engraving, ect...............

Using his own definition, anyone can see that a 'cross' does not qualify as a 'graven image'. But as with all of the logical flaws in Mikes arguments; he fails to acknowledge any of this.

Gabriel

 

[francisdesales]

I used to wear a cross untill i was born again.Then i started wearing my cross in my heart instead.

How about I wear mine inside and outside? I am not ashamed to wear a cross. You like "my" picture?

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

For, even IF Jesus WERE God in the flesh...

OK, you have left the realm of Christianity... Thus, further conversation on wearing crosses is no longer of validity with you. We believe God came in the flesh, and we celebrate it next week. We will continue to express that we are not shamed of Christ crucified.


Regards

 

[Gabe]

....Rediculous point. For, even IF Jesus WERE God in the flesh, He did NOT appear as ANYTHING other than the Son of God. Not ONCE did Christ state that He was God in the image of a man. You sure take a few 'words', interpret them, and then 'stretch them beyond recognition'. ('Talk about 'personal' interpretation'............)

You would make a 'mockery' of the Word. For the Word states without ANY confusion that NO MAN has EVER seen God in HIs Glory. The TRUE God. Only Moses, of ALL men, has seen ANY PART of God.

Hey, to each his own when it comes to belief. But we are here on a CHRISTIAN web forum, NOT a CATHOLIC forum. It seems as though certain beiefs should be a 'given'. One would expect this to be without conflict. The Word IS The Word. So REGARDLESS of 'belief', when discussing such issues, the LEAST we should do is abide by the FACT that the Word IS The Word.......

lol, i did not even bother reading that rant until now.

'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God....And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt amongst us, and we beheld his glory'

I think the Bible is pretty clear that Jesus is God in the flesh. I take it that Mike does not believe in the Holy Trinity and has somehow confused himself more than ussual and thinks that only Catholic's believe that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one in the same.

OK, you have left the realm of Christianity... Thus, further conversation on wearing crosses is no longer of validity with you....

I agree, this discussion is pointless.

 

[Imagican]

As I stated previous; regardless of your BELIEFS, Christ NEVER ONCE stated that He was GOD Himself. He consistently offered that He was the Son of God and that God WAS His Father. It is not I that has chosen to 'create' belief OUTSIDE of the written Word.

And as far as my statement concerning the understanding of 'graven images' by the Jews, they, like MOST others, often do not LIVE by what they KNOW. So even though symbolism through 'graven images' IS found by SOME Jews, ask EVEN those that USE such symbolism and they will tell you what the definition of 'graven image' IS. Heck, do yourself a favor and LOOK IT UP YOURSELF. YOU CHOOSE, webster, whoever................

The words themselves are 'self explanatory. 'graven': to carve, enGRAVE, to mold, etc.............
image; this one is TOO easy, for the Bible itself TELLS us what 'images' are in reference concerning 'graven images'. ANYTHING that resembles ANYTHING on earth, in heaven, or in the seas. Don't get no simpler than that.

Why this is such a contention is a mystery to ME. I guess it just goes to show just how EASY it is to ignore those things written that we choose to ignore. How easy it is to 'change' the meaning of the words in order to appease 'our hearts desire'.

I see that as it stands now the ONLY people that have chosen to continue this conversation are those who's religion has introduced MUCH of the symbolism that we see in Christianity today. It WOULD stand to reason that you would defend it so.

The LESS of 'this world' that we allow into our lives the MORE we are able to replace IT with God. His will is that we LEARN to love through a relationship with HIM. ALL that we allow to come between us and Him can ONLY impede this relationship. A MONK? I don't think so. But certainly separating ourselves from the desires and lusts of this world puts us in a 'better' place and allows us to be MORE receptive to God's will through understanding.

I am NOT a worshiper of a church. I LOVE Christ's church. But I do NOT worship it. I worhip God through Christ. This certainly separates ME from MOST of the rest of the world. But I have found that the fruits of such belief have allowed me to grow in ways that I would NEVER have even dreamed of before.

You believe that there is NO understanding OUTSIDE of the YOUR church. I KNOW that YOU are WRONG. You believe that NO ONE Is able to interpret EXCEPT those that have somehow 'risen' in stature among your clergy. That is rediculous. For it is GOD that choses to whom He reveal WHAT He will reveal. Not MEN.

I choose to accept what is offered PERIOD. I don't TRY to put limits on God's ABILITY to show me or WHOMEVER whatever it is that He would reveal. And The Word has clearly offered that 'graven images' are not ONLY not to be produced, but we are forbidden as well from worshiping them.

I have witnessed churches where the members, enter, bow to statues, and begin to pray TO the statue. There are those that would argue that they are NOT doing what I have PERSONALLY witnessed. But that is merely DOUBLE talk in that they have altered their UNDERSTANDING to FIT that which they have CHOSEN to Do and then CHOSEN words to defend themselves or ALTER what has actually been offered. Not a surprise, for MOST men will inevitably justify themselves rather than admit and suffer guilt over their choices.

I can clearly see that enlightenment is NOT what is being sought here. Justification is the word of the day. I offer this in closing: Search your HEART, (that IS how God communicates with us), and come to your OWN conclusions concerning this matter of 'graven images'. Compare scripture to scripture. You will PLAINLY find that God's intent was without DOUBT. But DON'T allow OTHER MEN to implant ideas and concepts that are NOT of God. Follow HIM with ALL your heart, mind and soul and there will be nothing that matters that will NOT be revealed.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Gabe]

Discussions with you really are futile, aren’t they? The only words you seem interested in reading are your own, for if you paid a little more attention to what others have to say, you may have realised that I AM NOT CATHOLIC.

You gave the statement concerning the understanding of ‘graven images’ by the Jews; in order to give your understanding of Scripture some much needed credibility. You thought it to be important, until I showed it to be wrong. This only goes to show how inconsistent your logic is; one minute you state that the opinions of a practicing Jew and how he or she interprets the Old Testament is useful to us as Christians and the next…they’re as ‘useless’ as ours.

You are a hypocrite of the worst kind. IMHO, Joe’s comparison of you to the Taliban is incorrect, because at least they practice what they preach, while you clearly do not. I cannot believe that I have wasted so much time discussing the symbol of Christianity with someone who denies the divinity of Christ.

Gabriel

 

[Imagican]

Oh, and let me add this:

This is NOT an attack against Catholics or ANY particular religion. Simple observation concerning MANY denominations. Since MOST evolved FROM the Catholic Church, it is ALMOST impossible to discuss MOST issues of this sort without some kind of allusion TO the Catholic Church.

If one reads what is ACTUALLY offered, they will find that it is an affront of MOST denominational teachings when it come to the issue. I have simply pointed out that there are many among us that have opted for RELIGION over TRUTH.

I can be accused of 'having my own truth' but then that would place EVERYONE in the 'same boat'. But the difference would be that I 'personally' have NOT opted to follow 'man-made' religion and simply accepted the Word as it has been offered. You can 'call' it 'Mike-made' if it 'pleases you', but THE truth is that; if it WERE of MY choosing, it would certainly be DIFFERENT.

Some would pronounce that the Bible was 'created by THEM'. I shun this thought and denounce any such offerings. While there were men who compiled the Bible as it exists in form today, the writtings in it, (even those that have been altered from their original context), WERE indeed inspired from above.

Since the Bible is ONLY the 'beginning of knowledge', I offer that there is MUCH MORE understanding possible THROUGH the Holy Spirit. That this knowledge SUPERCEDES that of MOST understanding in todays society in no way deminishes the TRUTH. It just makes it HARDER to see and accept.

I love my Catholic brothers and sisters AS MUCH as ANY OTHERS. That I don't agree with what they believe in NO WAY takes away my feelings for them. If ANYONE reading this has followed my posts, they will PLAINLY and CLEARLY see that I disagree with Catholics NO MORE, NO LESS than MOST present denominations.

But it would be ALMOST impossible for this discussion to have taken place without the MENTION of the church that introduced MOST of what we presently deal with so far as symbolism in the modern churches. So I have attempted, to the BEST of my ability, to keep any such references to a minimum and without predjudice. Simple statements without 'attack'.

So, to all, forgive me for anything that I may have offered in this discussion that has injured 'feelings', for that was NOT the intent of my comments. I have truthfully offered what has been revealed to ME. If I am wrong then 'time' will certainly tell. Not ONLY have I offered the 'revelation', but the PURPOSE of it as well. The REASONS that we are SUPPOSE to avoid using such symbolism and 'graven images'.

This is certainly a subject that is difficult to discern in todays society. So much emphasis on 'art' and such that it's really little different than the 'season' in which we find ourselves approaching. So many ENJOY and DESIRE things which are NOT condusive to a deeper and richer relationship that they would choose to please their hearts desire than follow the truth as offered by God.

Many accuse me of 'judging others'. Let me offer this: I judge MYSELF much MORE than I do 'others'. Only by looking within am I able to discern that which is in others. Through the many pitfalls that I have encountered I have learned MUCH that many seem to have YET to understand. If I were able, I would gladly offer ANYTHING that I have learned so that they may NOT have to suffer as I have. I think that THAT IS what love IS. The desire to and actual attempts to HELP those that are our brothers and sisters. To give what we have to help others that have not been as fortunate.

It took me about forty years of struggling to 'let go' of what 'I' wanted and accept God's will in my life. It was a monumental stuggle. I'm sure that my story is like MANY among the members of this forum. And like 'those' with a similar story, our message is often DIFFERENT than those that DIDN'T struggle so much. Mostly in 'degree'. It seems that those that HAVEN'T been through such struggle are often MUCH more LIBERAL in their veiws and understanding. I guess that is the nature of mankind. That which we really don't have to FIGHT for is 'taken for granted' and that which we DO have to fight for we value all the more.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Gabe]

Oh, and let me add this:

This is NOT an attack against Catholics or ANY particular religion. Simple observation concerning MANY denominations. Since MOST evolved FROM the Catholic Church, it is ALMOST impossible to discuss MOST issues of this sort without some kind of allusion TO the Catholic Church.

If one reads what is ACTUALLY offered, they will find that it is an affront of MOST denominational teachings when it come to the issue. I have simply pointed out that there are many among us that have opted for RELIGION over TRUTH.

I can be accused of 'having my own truth' but then that would place EVERYONE in the 'same boat'. But the difference would be that I 'personally' have NOT opted to follow 'man-made' religion and simply accepted the Word as it has been offered. You can 'call' it 'Mike-made' if it 'pleases you', but THE truth is that; if it WERE of MY choosing, it would certainly be DIFFERENT.

Some would pronounce that the Bible was 'created by THEM'. I shun this thought and denounce any such offerings. While there were men who compiled the Bible as it exists in form today, the writtings in it, (even those that have been altered from their original context), WERE indeed inspired from above.

Since the Bible is ONLY the 'beginning of knowledge', I offer that there is MUCH MORE understanding possible THROUGH the Holy Spirit. That this knowledge SUPERCEDES that of MOST understanding in todays society in no way deminishes the TRUTH. It just makes it HARDER to see and accept.

I love my Catholic brothers and sisters AS MUCH as ANY OTHERS. That I don't agree with what they believe in NO WAY takes away my feelings for them. If ANYONE reading this has followed my posts, they will PLAINLY and CLEARLY see that I disagree with Catholics NO MORE, NO LESS than MOST present denominations.

But it would be ALMOST impossible for this discussion to have taken place without the MENTION of the church that introduced MOST of what we presently deal with so far as symbolism in the modern churches. So I have attempted, to the BEST of my ability, to keep any such references to a minimum and without predjudice. Simple statements without 'attack'.

So, to all, forgive me for anything that I may have offered in this discussion that has injured 'feelings', for that was NOT the intent of my comments. I have truthfully offered what has been revealed to ME. If I am wrong then 'time' will certainly tell. Not ONLY have I offered the 'revelation', but the PURPOSE of it as well. The REASONS that we are SUPPOSE to avoid using such symbolism and 'graven images'.

This is certainly a subject that is difficult to discern in todays society. So much emphasis on 'art' and such that it's really little different than the 'season' in which we find ourselves approaching. So many ENJOY and DESIRE things which are NOT condusive to a deeper and richer relationship that they would choose to please their hearts desire than follow the truth as offered by God.

Many accuse me of 'judging others'. Let me offer this: I judge MYSELF much MORE than I do 'others'. Only by looking within am I able to discern that which is in others. Through the many pitfalls that I have encountered I have learned MUCH that many seem to have YET to understand. If I were able, I would gladly offer ANYTHING that I have learned so that they may NOT have to suffer as I have. I think that THAT IS what love IS. The desire to and actual attempts to HELP those that are our brothers and sisters. To give what we have to help others that have not been as fortunate.

It took me about forty years of struggling to 'let go' of what 'I' wanted and accept God's will in my life. It was a monumental stuggle. I'm sure that my story is like MANY among the members of this forum. And like 'those' with a similar story, our message is often DIFFERENT than those that DIDN'T struggle so much. Mostly in 'degree'. It seems that those that HAVEN'T been through such struggle are often MUCH more LIBERAL in their veiws and understanding. I guess that is the nature of mankind. That which we really don't have to FIGHT for is 'taken for granted' and that which we DO have to fight for we value all the more.

Blessings,

MEC

Oh, and let ME also add this:

I do not belong to ANY denomination and contrary to your latest statement, you clearly have not been able to 'let go' of what 'you' want and accept what you THINK is God's will in your life. Your thoughts on what makes people more 'liberal' (and i must stress that what you define as liberal is probably on par with Bin Laden's thoughts on the subject) in their views, is nonsense and your arrogance and apparent superiority complex is truly shocking. If you really think that I did not have to struggle and suffer for my faith, then this only further proves my point; discussing anything with you is futile, as you pay next to no attention to anything another has to say

 

[nadab]

I wish to not sidetrack this topic, but concerning whether Jesus is God, as espoused by the churches, here is something to consider.

Many Bibles have rendered John 1:1 as "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."(King James Bible) However, Greek grammar and the context strongly indicates that it should be rendered as "In the beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god ". Due to the fact that the Greek language of the first century did not have an indefinite article, such as "a" or "an", has made some question the above rendering.

But what if a Bible translation in a language that was spoken in the earliest centuries of our Common Era could be found of John 1:1 ? That would help in settling the issue. Well, there is one - the Sahidic dialect of Coptic. The Coptic language was spoken in Egypt in the centuries immediately following Jesus' ministry, and the Sahidic dialect was an early form of the language. Regarding the earliest Coptic translations of the Bible, The Anchor Bible Dictionary says: "Since the [Septuagint] and the [Christian Greek Scriptures, "New Testament"] were being translated into Coptic during the third century C.E., the Coptic version is based on [Greek manuscripts] which are significantly older than the vast majority of extant witnesses."

The Sahidic Coptic text is especially interesting for two reasons. First, it reflects an understanding of Scripture dating from before the fourth century, which was when the Trinity became official doctrine. Second, Coptic grammar is relatively close to English grammar in one important aspect. The earliest translations of the Christian Greek Scriptures (New Testament) were into Syriac, Latin, and Coptic. Syriac and Latin, like the Greek of those days, do not have an indefinite article. Coptic, however, does. Moreover, scholar Thomas O. Lambdin, in his work Introduction to Sahidic Coptic, says: "The use of the Coptic articles, both definite and indefinite, corresponds closely to the use of the articles in English."

Hence, the Coptic translation supplies interesting evidence as to how John 1:1 would have been understood back then. What was found ? The Sahidic Coptic translation reads of John 1:1 as: "In the beginning existed the Word and the Word existed with the God and a god was the Word".(Sahidic Coptic text; P.Chester Beatty-813, located at Dublin, Ireland) Evidently, those ancient translators realized that John's words recorded at John 1:1 did not mean that Jesus was to be identified as God Almighty, but as "a god".

 

[Free]

Discussion of whether or not Jesus is God are off topic. There are numerous threads about this, although likely a bit on the old side.

Jesus is God Incarnate, as all Christian's believe, but let's keep this on topic.

 

[nadab]

Yes, I recognize that it was offtopic and stated this in the beginning of my post. I felt it necessary to post some information concerning this based on an ancient Coptic manuscript, after Gabriel Ali had said

'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God....And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt amongst us, and we beheld his glory'

I think the Bible is pretty clear that Jesus is God in the flesh. I take it that Mike does not believe in the Holy Trinity and has somehow confused himself more than ussual and thinks that only Catholic's believe that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one in the same.

I was not trying to derail the topic. I will work at keeping all discussions "on topic".

 

[francisdesales]

As I stated previous; regardless of your BELIEFS, Christ NEVER ONCE stated that He was GOD Himself.

Sure He did. The Jews understood that and tried to stone Him for His remarks. But that is not what this topic is about...

And as far as my statement concerning the understanding of 'graven images' by the Jews, they, like MOST others, often do not LIVE by what they KNOW.

Including yourself...

The words themselves are 'self explanatory. 'graven': to carve, enGRAVE, to mold, etc.

That's not the Hebrew.

I see that as it stands now the ONLY people that have chosen to continue this conversation are those who's religion has introduced MUCH of the symbolism that we see in Christianity today.

To include the Bible...

I am NOT a worshiper of a church. I LOVE Christ's church. But I do NOT worship it.

WHO here says they do?

You believe that there is NO understanding OUTSIDE of the YOUR church.

Wrong.

You believe that NO ONE Is able to interpret EXCEPT those that have somehow 'risen' in stature among your clergy. That is rediculous.

What's ridiculous is that you continue to think WE believe that, after I have told you a number of times that you are clearly in the dark about Catholicism.

Or maybe you prefer to keep your strawman?

I choose to accept what is offered PERIOD.

You choose to "accept" what your MIND offers, period. Not God. Again and again, you have been told that your "mind" is not God. Every little thought that crosses your mind is not from God. That is your major mistake. Inability to discern what is from God, what is from you, and what is from Satan...

Didn't you know that Satan can appear as an "angel of light" to you? Yea, keep relying on what is "offered"...

I have witnessed churches where the members, enter, bow to statues, and begin to pray TO the statue. There are those that would argue that they are NOT doing what I have PERSONALLY witnessed.

That is not necessarily worship. As usual, you try to discern what is ANOTHER'S heart, while ignoring the implication that you cannot even discern when God speaks to you.

I can clearly see that enlightenment is NOT what is being sought here.

Not from you, at least. Who is asking you for enlightenment?

Justification is the word of the day.

Is that what you call those pussy-cat pictures you have?

I offer this in closing: Search your HEART, (that IS how God communicates with us), and come to your OWN conclusions concerning this matter of 'graven images'.

Yes, thanks, we have. We worship God, not statues. Sorry if you cannot tell the difference, but, quite frankly, we don't answer to you. God knows our heart.

Regards

 

[Imagican]

Fran,

It seems as though you'd rather attack my words than discuss issues pertaining to The Word. I guess that is to be accepted when ANYONE offers that which disagrees with their 'beliefs'.

I am WELL aware that Satan is able to disguise himself. I have witnessed a vast array of ways in which he has done this very thing to perpetuate his influence on the churches. That is the MAIN reason that there is SO MUCH confusion today IN the churches.

And I suppose that if Paul or Peter were HERE TODAY and offering the SAME words as I do, you'd attack them in the same manner.

I don't BLAME anyone for their beliefs. I have simply tried to offer that there is OFTEN much more understanding offered than that of the churches. The churches are BOUND by what they BELIEVE and teach THIS to others. Over TIME, often these BELIEFS become altered and misinterpreted by the NEXT generation and so the ideas themselves are NOT understood.

I can ASSURE you, liberalism in deed we NOT the 'plan' offered by God to mankind. ONLY when one's understanding of LOVE is COMPLETE will we EVER become truly FREE to DO as we will. For ONLY then will we be ABLE to discern what is GOOD and what is NOT.

What I offer are NOT words of 'condemnation' for I am UNABLE to condemn ANYONE. What I have offered are words that if considered and followed may well be able to lead one to a 'closer relationship' with Our Father. I always 'assume' when I come in contact with those that 'call' themselves 'Christian' that that IS their MAIN purpose in accepting Christ into their hearts. If I am wrong, forgive me.

We have but a 'short time' here to learn what we are able. Some are so 'caught up' in this world that learning the 'truth' can become difficult indeed. And Fran, there certainly ARE those among us that ARE chosen to reveal that which God chooses for others to KNOW. Whether they are heeded or not is TOTALLY dependant upon the 'state' of their hearts. For there will ALWAYS be those that will NEVER learn no matter what efforts God chooses to reveal his knowledge.

The Word is the 'beginning' of knowledge. It is by NO MEANS the 'end of it'. So we must FIRST begin to UNDERSTAND through the Word. Then, and ONLY then are we able to reach for those things of knowledge that are HIGHER and DEEPER.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Gabe]

....And I suppose that if Paul or Peter were HERE TODAY and offering the SAME words as I do, you'd attack them in the same manner....

Illusions of grandeur, anyone? If Paul or Peter were here with us today, they certainly would not preach the drivel you speak.

 

[Imagican]

Funny you would say that................

MEC