T.U.L.I.P. - Perseverance of the Saints

[GodsGrace]

Perseverance of the saints is a concept that began with Luther, Knox, Calvin, etc.

The belief in the reformed faith (commonly known as Calvinism) is that God predestines those that are to be saved.
Since God predestines them...they will persevere to the end of their lives due to the fact that they really do not have free will and thus God will keep them saved.

However, since the reformation in the first part of the 16th century, some denominations have come to hold this belief.

I have studied under two mainline denominational churches--- the Catholic Church and the Nazarene Church; both hold that eternal unconditional security is nowhere to be found in the New Testament. IOW, Perseverance of the Saints is not taught in the N.T. (this is also known as Eternal Security or Once Saved, Always Saved).

It would be good if Christ the King and atpollard gave us their beliefs regarding this....
for those of us who may have questions.

Please us biblical verses if you are able....
and please keep in mind that all of us love Jesus, no matter what our doctrinal stance may be.

What does this mean to you?

1 Corinthians 15:1-2
1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,
2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

How could we lose our faith, if your think this is possible?
If it's not possible, why do you believe it is not possible?

The above verses sound very clear....are they?

 

[Christ the King]

Perseverance of the saints is a concept that began with Luther, Knox, Calvin, etc.

The belief in the reformed faith (commonly known as Calvinism) is that God predestines those that are to be saved.
Since God predestines them...they will persevere to the end of their lives due to the fact that they really do not have free will and thus God will keep them saved.

However, since the reformation in the first part of the 16th century, some denominations have come to hold this belief.

I have studied under two mainline denominational churches--- the Catholic Church and the Nazarene Church; both hold that eternal unconditional security is nowhere to be found in the New Testament. IOW, Perseverance of the Saints is not taught in the N.T. (this is also known as Eternal Security or Once Saved, Always Saved).

It would be good if Christ the King and atpollard gave us their beliefs regarding this....
for those of us who may have questions.

Please us biblical verses if you are able....
and please keep in mind that all of us love Jesus, no matter what our doctrinal stance may be.

What does this mean to you?

1 Corinthians 15:1-2
1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,
2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

How could we lose our faith, if your think this is possible?
If it's not possible, why do you believe it is not possible?

The above verses sound very clear....are they?

Im not a fan of scripture tennis as verses just get tossed back and forth resulting in a stalemate.
Once saved tells me that it is a one time event rather than an ongoing process.
Always saved tells me that it cannot be lost regardless of what you do.

I don't see that being the case but Im not too sure. Therefore I tend to view it like this; besides faith i can approach God with good deeds, bad deeds or no deeds. The answer is clear to me. Weather we can loose our salvation or not I choose to do good deeds.

"What happens if a person who is born again commits a sin such as murder or suicide, like Judas, and dies unrepentant? That would show he never was really born again"

The problem I find with being "born again" is that one cannot be certain if they had a born again moment. The existence of false conversions supports this. A person can live their whole lives believing they are saved when in fact their epiphany was nothing more than a dream or thought

So the inability to know for sure who is saved undercuts the assurance of salvation. One can’t be sure of their assurance until they’re safely dead, which means they have no assurance at all.

To answer your question about that verse u quoted i think the word "if" says everything. Your saved if... If not then you can fall from grace and loose your salvation.

 

[atpollard]

Perseverance of the Saints is not taught in the N.T.

Let’s test that hypothesis.
First assumption is that one is a saint (Perseverance of the Saints does not apply to non-saints).
Second assumption is that a saint (one who is saved) will remain saved until the end (glorification).
So what does Scripture say:

[John 10:27-29 NASB] 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand.

• “my sheep follow me” indicates that the Saints (Jesus’ sheep) will and do follow him. It does not say SOME sheep, so it must imply that ALL of Jesus’ Sheep (the Saints) will and do follow him. It does not say MAY follow him, or speak of WANDERING OFF, so it is not unreasonable to conclude that ALL of Jesus‘ sheep WILL follow him and keep on following him.
• ”I give eternal life to them” makes the gift a permanent one since ETERNAL life is not ETERNAL if one later looses it.
• “They will never perish” repeats the message just in case you missed it the first time. NEVER perish means never, not until you do perish.
• “No one will snatch them out of my hand” is an assurance of perseverance. Is there any doubt that those in God’s hand are “Saints”?
• “no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand” So no one will and no one is able to. That is assurance of salvation. (PS. If someone ‘jumps’ out of their hands, then they WERE both able to and did ’snatch themselves’ out ... making the claim of Christ false.)

[Ephesians 1:9-11 NLT] 9 God has now revealed to us his mysterious plan regarding Christ, a plan to fulfill his own good pleasure. 10 And this is the plan: At the right time he will bring everything together under the authority of Christ--everything in heaven and on earth. 11 Furthermore, because we are united with Christ, we have received an inheritance from God, for he chose us in advance, and he makes everything work out according to his plan.

• We have received ... past tense, so we already have it.
• an inheritance from God ... what is it that we have inherited? Salvation in Christ, or just a chance to earn our own salvation through human effort with eternal damnation the prize for failure?
• according to his plan ... Does God actually work out His plans and see them to completion, or does God just get the ball rolling and hope we can finish his work?
  

[Ephesians 1:12-14 NLT] 12 God's purpose was that we Jews who were the first to trust in Christ would bring praise and glory to God. 13 And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, he identified you as his own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom he promised long ago. 14 The Spirit is God's guarantee that he will give us the inheritance he promised and that he has purchased us to be his own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify him.

• God saves you ... implies nothing but flat out states that it is God that saves, so who is man to unsave?
• The Spirit is God's guarantee ... So is the Holy Spirit a guarantee or not? If He is a guarantee, then the Saints (who have the Holy Spirit) WILL persevere to the end and receive the inheritance (ETERNAL LIFE). If the Saints do not persevere then the Holy Spirit guarantees nothing.

[Romans 8:29-30 NIV] 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

• Predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son ... Those that will ultimately be conformed to the image of Christ are SAINTS, so this extended sentence is about the Saints.
• those he predestined, he also called ... the Saints are all most assuredly called; no Saint remains uncalled.
• those he called, he also justified ... the Saints that are called are assuredly justified; no Saint remains unjustified.
• those he justified, he also glorified ... the Saints that are justified (by the blood of Christ) are most assuredly glorified; no Saint will remain unglorified.
• Throughout this, “those” always refers to exactly the same group of people ... the Saints that will be conformed to the image of his Son ... with their “perseverance” to glorification assured by GOD (the one who is doing all of the action in these verses.)

Thus the claim that “Perseverance of the Saints is not found anywhere in Scripture” appears to be false.

 

[JLB]

The problem I find with being "born again" is that one cannot be certain if they had a born again moment. The existence of false conversions supports this. A person can live their whole lives believing they are saved when in fact their epiphany was nothing more than a dream or thought

In my experience there was a radical change within me, that was very real. My desires changed. I had a hunger for the word of God, and to draw near to Him, to please Him, and do what was right.


Here is one scripture that teaches us about the born again experience, in which we have the Spirit within us, to led us in the way of righteous choices and behavior.


The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God. Romans 8:16



Amen.



May God richly bless you and keep you, that you may know that you are His precious child.



JLB

 

[JLB]

[John 10:27-29 NASB] 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand

Amen. Great scripture and promise for those who hear that results in following our Lord.


If we are to follow the Lord today, wouldn’t that include following His teachings and commandments?


His teachings and commandments are about love; loving God and loving our neighbor.


For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3


His commandments are not burdensome, because we who believe, have the Holy Spirit to empower us to do what we could do, before we were born again.

It’s called grace; The Spirit of grace.




JLB

 

[JLB]

9 God has now revealed to us his mysterious plan regarding Christ, a plan to fulfill his own good pleasure. 10 And this is the plan: At the right time he will bring everything together under the authority of Christ--everything in heaven and on earth. 11 Furthermore, because we are united with Christ, we have received an inheritance from God, for he chose us in advance, and he makes everything work out according to his plan.

• We have received ... past tense, so we already have it.
• an inheritance from God ... what is it that we have inherited? Salvation in Christ, or just a chance to earn our own salvation through human effort with eternal damnation the prize for failure?
• according to his plan ... Does God actually work out His plans and see them to completion, or does God just get the ball rolling and hope we can finish his work

God is faithful to finish the work He started in us.

Are we faithful to obey Him, in that we hear His voice and follow Him.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9


But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:4-8

• that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

We who have been justified by His grace are heirs according to the hope of eternal life.


We who follow Him, His teachings and commandments, hope to inherit eternal life.


And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.
Matthew 19:29



JLB

 

[atpollard]

If we are to follow the Lord today, wouldn’t that include following His teachings and commandments?

You ask that a lot.
Yes, (Ephesians 2:10) but it is off topic for the question asked in the OP (Perseverance of the Saints is about the assurance that those who have been “born of water and the spirit” and “received the Holy Spirit” will continue in the faith ... because “He who started a good work in you will see it to completion”.)

 

[JLB]

To answer your question about that verse u quoted i think the word "if" says everything. Your saved if... If not then you can fall from grace and loose your salvation.

God loves us and desires us to be close to Him.

If we wander away from Him, He longs for us to return to Him, as a Father who longs for a wayward son to return home.


Nevertheless, we must make the choice to return to Him.



JLB

 

[JLB]

You ask that a lot.
Yes, (Ephesians 2:10) but it is off topic for the question asked in the OP (Perseverance of the Saints is about the assurance that those who have been “born of water and the spirit” and “received the Holy Spirit” will continue in the faith ... because “He who started a good work in you will see it to completion”.)

He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 2:4


The Holy Spirit inspired John to write this because it’s important.

Sobering but very important.


“Knowing Him” is the biblical definition of eternal life.


Those who claim to have eternal life, yet disobey Him, are deceived, thinking they have the eternal life they claim to have.


His Commandments are about love, and they are not burdensome.


Those who walk in hate, no longer have the eternal life they once had.


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15



JLB

 

[atpollard]

We who have been justified by His grace are heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Then the Holy Spirit guarantees NOTHING? We CAN be snatched out of God’s hand? Only SOME of those whom God justified were (will certainly be) glorified?

What do YOU suggest we do with all of the misleading and outright false promises offered by God that do not include your implied caveats?

 

[JLB]

Then the Holy Spirit guarantees NOTHING? We CAN be snatched out of God’s hand? Only SOME of those whom God justified were (will certainly be) glorified?

Not only will they be snatched out of His hand, God the Father will remove them, if they are unfruitful and disobedient.


“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
John 15:1-2

• Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;

Jesus admonished us to remain “in Him”.


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Here is how we are instructed to remain “in Christ”.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


You can not avoid obedience to Jesus Christ as Lord.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9




JLB

 

[atpollard]

He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 2:4

I agree and covered this in my first post:

First assumption is that one is a saint (Perseverance of the Saints does not apply to non-saints).

Like my favorite verse puts it:
[Ephesians 2:8-10 NIV] 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

To be saved is to be “God’s Masterpiece” and we were EXIST to do God’s good works ... because we are His, rather than in hope of becoming His.

 

[atpollard]

Not only will they be snatched out of His hand, God the Father will remove them, if they are unfruitful and disobedient.


“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
John 15:1-2

• Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;

Jesus admonished us to remain “in Him”.


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Here is how we are instructed to remain “in Christ”.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


You can not avoid obedience to Jesus Christ as Lord.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9




JLB

I’ll get a sharpie and start crossing out false verses.

Is it enough to redact just the false verse, or should we reject the whole book as uninspired ... let’s see: goodbye John and Romans and Ephesians ...

 

[JLB]

I’ll get a sharpie and start crossing out false verses.

What is a false verse, brother?



JLB

 

[JLB]

I’ll get a sharpie and start crossing out false verses.

Is it enough to redact just the false verse, or should we reject the whole book as uninspired ... let’s see: goodbye John and Romans and Ephesians ...

Romans, John, Ephesians as well as the entire New Testament say the same thing.

The wages of sin is death; Sin sends you to hell.

Believing in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, without obeying Him as Lord, is worthless.


Why would a born again Christian want to obey Satan?

• His Commandments are not burdensome.
• His Commandments are the way of love.

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3


A brother who hates, is a murderer.


“You have heard that it was said to those of old, You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire. Matthew 5:21-22


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15



Why do Calvinist’s, so desperately want to promote disobedience to Jesus Christ.


His Commandments are not burdensome!




JLB

 

[JLB]

I agree and covered this in my first post:



Like my favorite verse puts it:
[Ephesians 2:8-10 NIV] 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

To be saved is to be “God’s Masterpiece” and we were EXIST to do God’s good works ... because we are His, rather than in hope of becoming His.

Who said we have to do good works, in hope of becoming His?


Once we are saved by grace through, ie born again by obeying the Gospel, we are to continue, to follow Jesus Christ, which s to say... follow His teachings and commandments.

His teachings and commandments are the truth, because they come from Him, who is the truth.


If we don’t obey His teachings and commandments then whose teachings and commandments are we obeying?


The way the scriptures instruct us to remain in Christ, is by keeping His commandments.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


I don’t think I have ever heard anyone teach that we have to do good works to be born again. Yet I constantly hear Calvinist’s claim that is what I say.

Just not true.


To remain in Christ, we are told to obey Him, to keep His commandments.


His Commandments are the way of love.


If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. John 15:10




JLB

 

[atpollard]

What is a false verse, brother?

Those that I quoted which state things contrary to the interpretation that you have posted.
John wrote that Jesus said “I give them ETERNAL LIFE”.
You have corrected us that Jesus really meant to add “IF THEY WORK HARD ENOUGH TO OBEY ME”.
Thus John’s quote of the Savior’s unilateral promise creates a false assurance of our salvation. Such a verse cannot be inspired and must be redacted. If John wrote ONE uninspired verse, then we must question if his Gospel is truly “God breathed”.

It was sarcasm aimed at the fact that you made no effort to address any of the scripture I posted and explain it (and this is a topic created specifically to ask what REFORMED Christians believe). Instead you simple played SCRIPTURE PONG by ignoring verses that did not fit your narrative to tell me that what I believe is wrong and YOUR VERSES are the right ones.

 

[JLB]

Is it enough to redact just the false verse, or should we reject the whole book as uninspired ... let’s see: goodbye John

This is what John wrote;


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Here is how we are instructed to remain “in Christ”.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24



Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9



He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 1 John 2:4-5



“If you love Me, keep My commandments. John 14:15





JLB

 

[JLB]

Those that I quoted which state things contrary to the interpretation that you have posted.

There is nothing in John or the New Testament that is contrary to the scriptures I posted.


JLB

 

[JLB]

John wrote that Jesus said “I give them ETERNAL LIFE”.
You have corrected us that Jesus really meant to add “IF THEY WORK HARD ENOUGH TO OBEY ME”.

Brother, why would you say such a thing.

Please show me a post where I said you must work hard to earn eternal life.


A person who is “in Christ” has eternal life.

“Knowing Him” is the definition of eternal life.


And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17:3


Being “in Christ” whereby we are joined to Him, and are one spirit with Him, is to be joined with and have eternal life.


But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
1 Corinthians 6:17


Being “in Christ” is having eternal life.


What I have been posting about is REMAINING “in Him”.


Jesus told us we must remain “in Him”.


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Here is how, this same Apostle John instructs to REMAIN “in Christ”!


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

• he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him.

JLB