T.U.L.I.P. - Perseverance of the Saints

[JLB]

But equally this King called us friends

15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.
John 15:15

He called His disciples friends.

He called Abraham friend.

He calls those who are faithful and obedient friends.


Surely you must know, that a covenant has requirements.

Our course He loves us, but the question is, do we love Him?

Are we His friend?


Are we faithful to Him?


James had to correct some some who weren’t.


Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.
James 4:4





JLB

 

[JLB]

both were right but Mary chose the better option.

Mary chose what was better.


Amen.



JLB

 

[atpollard]

What do you have against obeying Jesus Christ.

Who do you think we should obey, if not our Lord?
Who should we obey if not our Father?
Who should we obey if not our Husband?

”Should” or “must”?
I agree 100% that we should.
I agree that the Saints/Elect/Chosen will.
I disagree that we MUST in order to maintain our salvation.

 

[JLB]

I misunderstood u and thought u believed OSAS. My bad


Yes I did

You ever heard of the story of the lamb who was constantly going astray, and the shepherd had to break his leg, to keep it from wandering off, for its own protection.

Turns out the shepherd carries the little lamb until his leg healed, and through that time the little lamb bonds with him, and becomes close. So when his leg heals, he stays right at the shepherds feet.


I can relate.

I’m the one with four broken legs, that are a little crooked, but I can still keep up!


I have come to appreciate his rod and staff; they comfort me, and I have learned to stay within reach.


Amen.




JLB

 

[JLB]

”Should” or “must”?
I agree 100% that we should.
I agree that the Saints/Elect/Chosen will.
I disagree that we MUST in order to maintain our salvation.

I believe the word teaches us that in order to remain in Christ, we need to obey Him, if we expect to receive eternal salvation.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9

• He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him

Why would you believe we can hate our brother, and still have eternal life remains in us?


Here is how the scripture teaches us to remain “in Him”.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

• he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him.

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3

• His commandments are not burdensome.

Keeping His commandments is not hard work, nor is it burdensome.



JLB

 

[JLB]

[Philippians 2:12-13 NASB] 12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for [His] good pleasure.

• Whose your daddy?

God is my Father.

He is at work in me.

His Spirit gives me both the desire and grace (ability;power) to practice righteousness. If I walk according to the Spirit, and the desires of His, then I will we walking in the truth.


If on the other hand I choose to obey the sinful desires of my flesh, then I will be walking according to the flesh.


I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Galatians 5:16


again


Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

• that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Do you understand what this phrase “inherit the kingdom” means ?




JLB

 

[JLB]

The Holy Spirit GUARANTEES the first 3 points.

Brother, you are misapplying what the scripture so plainly says.


In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Ephesians 1:13-14


the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance


The Holy Spirit doesn’t guarantee anything!


The Holy Spirit is the guarantee; the down payment of our inheritance.


You keep trying to use this word guarantee as the modern English word is used.

This word in the Greek means earnest, or down payment.


You confessed Jesus as Lord, which is to believe the Gospel.

And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.”
Acts 5:32


God takes you at your word, that you have honestly chosen to make Jesus the Lord of your life, and gives you a down payment of His Spirit, which gives you the right to BECOME a son of God.


But as many as received him, to them gave he power
to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: John 1:12


The Holy Spirit is the grace, the power given to us as a gift, to enable us to practice righteousness, to walk in love, to have dominion over the sin that dwells in our flesh so that we walk according to the Spirit, which means we walk in obedience to the truth; to Jesus Christ Who is the truth.


There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Romans 8:1


Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. Romans 8:12-14


Here is the choice, we as children of God, who have the Holy Spirit, must make.

• For if you live according to the flesh you will die;

• but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live

JLB

 

[PeterJens]

He called His disciples friends.

He called Abraham friend.

He calls those who are faithful and obedient friends.


Surely you must know, that a covenant has requirements.

Our course He loves us, but the question is, do we love Him?

Are we His friend?


Are we faithful to Him?


James had to correct some some who weren’t.


Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.
James 4:4





JLB

Jesus called us friends. Now our salvation is dependent on our hearts state and our relationship of love, forgiveness and faith, our rock.

The difference between those of the Kingdom and those of the world, is His people love Him and bow the knee, others will fight this stranger. It is the state of ones heart and approach to Him define who one is. Taking the parable of the virgins and their lamps, we have the power to be prepared or to be in need. Be prepared or miss the Kingdom.

The Lords predestination, His heart is His sheep listen and follow Him.
So all His language is to promise to His people who show their reality by their response to Him.

Some get confused that the promises is to individuals who can then presume to be His chosen or friends. But Israel where Gods people who were rejected because they claimed the words yet rebelled and disobeyed Gods commands. If God rejected these people, who in name were chosen, why should He start to accept another group who claim Jesus in name only? This very argument is used in Hebrews

And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.
Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it.
Heb 3:18-19...4:1

So believers can fall short, just like Gods people.
A promise is given to people who are Gods people, not His enemies. A friend can become an enemy, as Judas did, so in some peoples view Judas actually was saved, and His betrayal was just a step on the road of salvation.

In the world Judas is saved, open rebellion against the King is just a mistake that is ignored, which devalues relationship below bondage. God is bound to sinners if they agree at some point He is ok. How does this fit with the parable of the talents, those faithful with a little will be given a lot, those fail with a little will have that little taken away. Sounds like those who devalue God after knowing His grace are rejected, 100%.

 

[JLB]

Jesus called us friends.

Jesus may call you friend.

He called the Apostles friend.

He called Abraham friend.

It doesn’t mean all those who are born again Christians are His friends. They may start off being His friend. Some may learn to become His friend.


Born again Christians who are friends of the world, are enemies of God.


Please tell me you understand this.

• Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God?

Where do wars and fights come from among you? Do they not come from your desires for pleasure that war in your members? You lust and do not have. You murder and covet and cannot obtain. You fight and war. Yet you do not have because you do not ask. You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures. Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain, “The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously”?
But He gives more grace. Therefore He says:
“God resists the proud,
But gives grace to the humble.”
Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. Lament and mourn and weep! Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to gloom. Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and He will lift you up. James 4:1-10



JLB

 

[JLB]

In the world Judas is saved, open rebellion against the King is just a mistake that is ignored, which devalues relationship below bondage. God is bound to sinners if they agree at some point He is ok. How does this fit with the parable of the talents, those faithful with a little will be given a lot, those fail with a little will have that little taken away. Sounds like those who devalue God after knowing His grace are rejected, 100%.

Judas Iscariot was a believer, and a disciple, who followed the Lord for over three years, was promoted to an Apostle.

He was predestined to reign and rule with Christ along with the other Apostles.


So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28


Then became a traitor.



And when it was day, He called His disciples to Himself; and from them He chose twelve whom He also named apostles: Simon, whom He also named Peter, and Andrew his brother; James and John; Philip and Bartholomew; Matthew and Thomas; James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon called the Zealot; Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot who also became a traitor. Luke 6:13-16

• Judas Iscariot who also became a traitor.

He was an Apostle the became a traitor.


Saul of Tarsus was a persecutor of the Church and insolent man, an enemy of Christ, then became an Apostle.


Went from being destined to rule with Christ, to becoming a traitor, and hanging himself, as a lost man.





JLB

 

[LovethroughDove]

Obviously the words used in scripture are for those who are God's.

John 12:44-50 Then Jesus cried out, "When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. When he looks at me, he sees the one who sent me. I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness. "As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day. For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it. I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say."

All through scripture God says that if you know him, you know his voice. I guess we are concerned about weeding out the people who are misrepresenting God's commands. God's voice will always get through. Always.

Just because we have the Holy Spirit now, does not mean we are perfect. His voice speaks to us through scripture and we are putting off the old man and being transformed into the new man. Ephesians 4:22-24 You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; to be made new in the attitude of your minds; and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

When God warns us of things in scripture, he does this to keep us on the track. And, it does do the job for those who actually love him and care about what he is saying to our Spirit. We care about righteousness, so we listen.

 

[PeterJens]

Jesus may call you friend.

He called the Apostles friend.

He called Abraham friend.

It doesn’t mean all those who are born again Christians are His friends. They may start off being His friend. Some may learn to become His friend.


Born again Christians who are friends of the world, are enemies of God.


Please tell me you understand this.

• Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God?

Where do wars and fights come from among you? Do they not come from your desires for pleasure that war in your members? You lust and do not have. You murder and covet and cannot obtain. You fight and war. Yet you do not have because you do not ask. You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures. Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain, “The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously”?
But He gives more grace. Therefore He says:
“God resists the proud,
But gives grace to the humble.”
Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. Lament and mourn and weep! Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to gloom. Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and He will lift you up. James 4:1-10



JLB

I think you did not read all I wrote or intended.
How we finish is our true disposition not how we start.

If we think of a vine, how it grows. Its final mature look is not the same as it started. Jesus emphasises dwelling, abiding, spending time with Him opens the doors.

I think Abraham is a good example. Only after he offered up Isaac did the Lord say, now I know he fears God.

So equally how do you distinguish between those who say the words but when tested fail, and those who appear unsure, but under testing, prove true. Some appear to believe God can see what we are before we are proven true to our King or are just empty vessels. Unfortunately this is going to be combinations of things, some false converts, weakness and breaking under stress, or those like Judas who expected a different outcome.

Hebrews described those who know the Lord, yet walk away, which brings to mind back sliding, and getting a hard heart. The problem always is often emotional maturity takes a back seat to theology until the two break, and leaving the theology and personal problems behind getting on with life takes over.

I have seen for some this is actually a good thing, because their faith is more head knowledge than heart knowledge and need a dose of real life to get to see some of the under lying problems. This is often why there is confusion over what it means to leave the Lord and what is facing up to reality and who we actually are.

What I do appreciate is the Lords love and grace is so very strong, if we hold on to truth and love, He will pull us through. God bless you

 

[Christ the King]

Judas Iscariot was a believer, and a disciple, who followed the Lord for over three years, was promoted to an Apostle.

He was predestined to reign and rule with Christ along with the other Apostles.

So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28

Then became a traitor.

And when it was day, He called His disciples to Himself; and from them He chose twelve whom He also named apostles: Simon, whom He also named Peter, and Andrew his brother; James and John; Philip and Bartholomew; Matthew and Thomas; James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon called the Zealot; Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot who also became a traitor. Luke 6:13-16

• Judas Iscariot who also became a traitor.

He was an Apostle the became a traitor.

Saul of Tarsus was a persecutor of the Church and insolent man, an enemy of Christ, then became an Apostle.

Went from being destined to rule with Christ, to becoming a traitor, and hanging himself, as a lost man.

JLB

Judas was someone that came to mind. If I was an OSAS believer I would say, that the disciples weren't saved until they received the Holy Spirit after Jesus had gone, as described in Acts.

 

[PeterJens]

Judas was someone that came to mind. If I was an OSAS believer I would say, that the disciples weren't saved until they received the Holy Spirit after Jesus had gone, as described in Acts.

The time the Holy Spirit came upon the disciples is an interesting problem.
Jesus say Peter testified that He was the Christ because God had revealed it to him.
Equally the apostles went out preaching, healing and casting out demons through the power of the Holy Spirit, or so we understand this. But maybe communion before the ascension and the baptism at Pentecost is different.

Judas did not find forgiveness and lost faith, while Peter denied Christ but returned because his faith stood strong.

One gospel says Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit on the disciples.

22 And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit."
John 20:22

To a degree the infilling with the Holy Spirit is a mystery, though Paul describes this as a seal of the promise of resurrection.

 

[JLB]

Judas was someone that came to mind. If I was an OSAS believer I would say, that the disciples weren't saved until they received the Holy Spirit after Jesus had gone, as described in Acts.

So you don’t believe people were saved under Jesus’s ministry; through Him preaching the gospel?


If you were OSAS and said this, I would ask what a person must do to be saved?


JLB

 

[Christ the King]

So you don’t believe people were saved under Jesus’s ministry; through Him preaching the gospel?

If you were OSAS and said this, I would ask what a person must do to be saved?

JLB

Remember that isn't my view im just trying to predict what an OSAS person might say.

To your question perhaps an OSAS person would reply as such;
We are saved by faith. Maybe the disciples didn't have the total faith required (Thomas certainly didn't) until they saw the resurrection of Christ. Only then could they receive salvation through the Holy Spirit

 

[JLB]

Remember that isn't my view im just trying to predict what an OSAS person might say.

Amen.

I know. I just giving you whatI would ask, “if” you were.

 

[JLB]

To your question perhaps an OSAS person would reply as such;
We are saved by faith. Maybe the disciples didn't have the total faith required (Thomas certainly didn't) until they saw the resurrection of Christ. Only then could they receive salvation through the Holy Spirit

We receive faith when we hear God’s word, the Gospel message.


So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17


Let me back up a little for context:


But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:9-10

• For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Jesus preached the gospel.

Many believed.

Some believers followed Him as disciples.

The 12 continued to follow Him, after some disciples turned away from following Him.


My question to you, (as a hypothetical OSAS person) is:


What must someone do to be saved?



JLB

 

[Christ the King]

JLB

I don't really know their case well enough to be able to give a decent argument.

I am of the firm belief that we can fall from grace if we don't follow God's will.
Same as you. (i think im right about u this time)

James' faith and deeds, the parable of the sheep and the goats, the parable of the god and bad fish in the net and the judgment in revelation 20 are some of the best passages to confirm it I think

I believe that through baptism we receive the Holy Spirit
Through faith (which includes repenting) we receive God's grace (not salvation yet)
We must continue in God's will and reject Satan's temptations to produce good deeds. Being in communion with Christ is a huge help (maybe even necessary)
We will still sin and need to repent periodically to renew/strengthen God's grace

Then after we die we will approach the white throne where "The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books" Revelation 20: 12
Hopefully I will have the best defense barrister in the universe, Jesus Christ.

I see that Protestants also believe that Christ will be our advocate on the day of judgement. Doesn't that contradict their belief that they are saved already?

I don't think salvation is a one time event that happens in our life on earth, but an ongoing process. I could be wrong but that's what I think atm. It's a mix of RCC teachings, other teachings and my own thoughts like defining salvation and God's grace as two different things. I think the description of being born again is receiving God's grace, not an assurance of salvation.

Tell me what you think about that? I don't think any of it contradicts scripture, does it?

Thinking about this leads me to a famous old topic that I have never understood.
Theologians have grappled with it since the beginning of Christianity.

I'll post a new thread on it in the open forum

 

[JLB]

I don't really know their case well enough to be able to give a decent argument.

Ok. I’m just asking you as a Christian, what must a person do, to be saved?


Here’s what I believe, based on what I read in the scriptures.

I will include a couple here:


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12



“Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” Acts 16:30-31



Believe is what we must do to be saved.


The scriptures teach us we must believe, in order to be saved;
born again.


The Calvinist believes one must be saved, born again in order to believe.



JLB