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T.U.L.I.P. - Perseverance of the Saints

atpollard said:
Instead you simple played SCRIPTURE PONG by ignoring verses that did not fit your narrative to tell me that what I believe is wrong and YOUR VERSES are the right ones.
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I never said your verses are wrong.


Furthermore if you would focus on using scripture rather than making up things that I didn’t say, like “having to work hard to earn eternal life” or “doing good works to earn eternal life”, then you might be able to make a valid point.


atpollard said:
It was sarcasm aimed at the fact that you made no effort to address any of the scripture I posted and explain it (and this is a topic created specifically to ask what REFORMED Christians believe).
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Instead of sarcasm, why don’t you use scripture to make your point.

Honestly every Calvinist except one, does this same thing;

Claiming that I am teaching a doctrine of works to earn salvation, while disregarding all the scriptures that teach us we must obey our Lord, to remain in His love, to remain in Him.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24






JLB
 
atpollard said:
12 God's purpose was that we Jews who were the first to trust in Christ would bring praise and glory to God. 13 And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, he identified you as his own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom he promised long ago. 14 The Spirit is God's guarantee that he will give us the inheritance he promised and that he has purchased us to be his own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify him.
  • God saves you ... implies nothing but flat out states that it is God that saves, so who is man to unsave?
  • The Spirit is God's guarantee ... So is the Holy Spirit a guarantee or not? If He is a guarantee, then the Saints (who have the Holy Spirit) WILL persevere to the end and receive the inheritance (ETERNAL LIFE). If the Saints do not persevere then the Holy Spirit guarantees nothing
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First of all the word guarantee is earnest, which means down payment.

Strongs 728 - arrabon
  1. an earnest
    1. money which in purchases is given as a pledge or downpayment that the full amount will subsequently be paid


Secondly, please show the scripture that says...

If He is a guarantee, then the Saints (who have the Holy Spirit) WILL persevere to the end and receive the inheritance (ETERNAL LIFE).



If the Saints do not persevere then the Holy Spirit guarantees nothing
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The Holy Spirit is the downpayment, and is given to us to do what we could not do without Him, which is walk according to the Spirit rather than walk according to the flesh.

The Holy Spirit doesn’t guarantee the saints will persevere.

The Holy Spirit is the guarantee, the earnest, the down payment towards something to come in the future; eternal salvation.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9


The Holy Spirit empowers us to obey Jesus Christ, rather than obey the sin that dwells in our flesh.


Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. Romans 8:12-14


  • For if you live according to the flesh you will die;
  • but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.


Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. Galatians 6:7-8


  • but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.



The Holy Spirit will lead you to practice righteousness, and obedience to Christ Jesus, and empower you to live in dominion over sin.

If you yield to Hm, to be led by Him, and invest yourself towards the things of righteousness, from the Spirit you will reap everlasting life.


If you chose to ignore the Spirit, and disregard the commandments and laws that were written in your heart and mind, and sow to the flesh and live in disobedience to Jesus Christ, then you can expect to reap eternal damnation.



JLB
 
wondering said:
Perseverance of the saints is a concept that began with Luther, Knox, Calvin, etc.
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I wonder if the folks that follow the teachings of Calvin, ever really contemplate what they are persevering towards?


For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. Romans 8:24-25


Paul using the language of faith, describes what it is we are persevering for.

The word perseverance here is actually patience.


For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
Romans 8:24-25 KJV


Paul is showing us that we are patiently waiting for something.


Strongs G5881 - hypomonē


The KJV translates Strong's G5281 in the following manner: patience (29x), enduring (1x), patient continuance (1x), patient waiting (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
  1. steadfastness, constancy, endurance
    1. in the NT the characteristic of a man who is not swerved from his deliberate purpose and his loyalty to faith and piety by even the greatest trials and sufferings
    2. patiently, and steadfastly
  2. a patient, steadfast waiting for
  3. a patient enduring, sustaining, perseverance

Endurance, steadfastness, patience



What does Paul say we are persevering towards, patiently waiting and enduring for?



For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees?


If we are not patiently waiting, hoping, persevering and enduring towards the reality of our salvation, then what are we persevering towards?


Jesus said it this way -


But he who endures to the end shall be saved. Matthew 24:13




JLB
 
JLB u believe in OSAS right?

I have no strong convictions but I tend to think we can loose our salvation.
Is there an explanation to the concerns I brought up?

"What happens if a person who is born again commits a sin such as murder or suicide, like Judas, and dies unrepentant? That would show he never was really born again"

The problem I find with being "born again" is that one cannot be certain if they had a born again moment. The existence of false conversions supports this. A person can live their whole lives believing they are saved when in fact their epiphany was nothing more than a dream or thought

So the inability to know for sure who is saved undercuts the assurance of salvation. One can’t be sure of their assurance until they’re safely dead, which means they have no assurance at all.

Also do u believe one is sinless after being saved or free of evil temptation?

I turned away from God for a long time and lived a life of sin without remorse.
If I had to choose a born again moment it's when I started to notice God's will in my mind. I had been suppressing God's will for so long and operating directly from Satan's will.

But I still fall into sin sometimes, Paul explains it like only he can in Romans 7, I want to do good all the time but i still do what I don't want to do. Evil is right there with me every step. Even now the thought of OSAS brings Satan into my mind trying to get me to fall into sin.

Only Paul really talks about struggling with sin like that. He has a strong emphasis on defending against the evil one, spiritual warfare, the armour of God and all of this was after his conversion.

When you are away from Christ like Paul and I were it gives the evil one a lot of time with your mind, he owns it. He builds strongholds, he knew me better than I knew myself.

By the time we see the light we find ourselves deep behind enemy lines and that's where I think Paul is coming from as well. Spiritual warfare is a topic that is rarely discussed. Come to think of it only people who were away from God tend to discuss the temptations of the evil one in a spiritual warfare context. Hmm

So what I get from Paul is that evil will be around me till i die, waging war against me. I must keep building my armour of God to better fend off the attacks of the evil one. This is the cross that i carry.

So would u say I am saved?
Would u say Paul was saved on the road to Damascus?

Then i think God is omniscient, he knows what we're going to do even b4 we do it.
Before long my hands r in the air in an admittance to the fact that I don't understand the total glory and omnipotence of God
 
O
Christ the King said:
"What happens if a person who is born again commits a sin such as murder or suicide, like Judas, and dies unrepentant? That would show he never was really born again"
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Not at all.

That’s the logic of the OSAS folks.


Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20


  • let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death



JLB
 
JLB said:
I wonder if the folks that follow the teachings of Calvin, ever really contemplate what they are persevering towards?


For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. Romans 8:24-25


Paul using the language of faith, describes what it is we are persevering for.

The word perseverance here is actually patience.


For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
Romans 8:24-25 KJV


Paul is showing us that we are patiently waiting for something.


Strongs G5881 - hypomonē


The KJV translates Strong's G5281 in the following manner: patience (29x), enduring (1x), patient continuance (1x), patient waiting (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
  1. steadfastness, constancy, endurance
    1. in the NT the characteristic of a man who is not swerved from his deliberate purpose and his loyalty to faith and piety by even the greatest trials and sufferings
    2. patiently, and steadfastly
  2. a patient, steadfast waiting for
  3. a patient enduring, sustaining, perseverance

Endurance, steadfastness, patience



What does Paul say we are persevering towards, patiently waiting and enduring for?



For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees?


If we are not patiently waiting, hoping, persevering and enduring towards the reality of our salvation, then what are we persevering towards?


Jesus said it this way -


But he who endures to the end shall be saved. Matthew 24:13




JLB
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Hi J,,,,

I find the above post so interesting, and this entire topic, actually.

Unfortunately for me, I have the flu and can hardly sit here.

This is also for atpollard and Christ the King ,,,from whom I was hoping to have a different perspective since he comes from a mainline church (catholicism).

I remember that I also owe atpollard a couple of replies from the Free Will thread.

Hope to be back soon!!
:sick
 
wondering said:
Hi J,,,,

I find the above post so interesting, and this entire topic, actually.

Unfortunately for me, I have the flu and can hardly sit here.

This is also for atpollard and Christ the King ,,,from whom I was hoping to have a different perspective since he comes from a mainline church (catholicism).

I remember that I also owe atpollard a couple of replies from the Free Will thread.

Hope to be back soon!!
:sick
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God bless you as you recover.


JLB
 
JLB said:
Please show me a post where I said you must work hard to earn eternal life.
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Not to EARN it, just to KEEP it.
It is still a works based salvation because YOU maintained your salvation, so “saved” is You and God working together as equals.
 
atpollard said:
Not to EARN it, just to KEEP it.
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Here is how the scripture teaches us to remain “in Him”.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

  • he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him.


For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3


  • His commandments are not burdensome.


Keeping His commandments is not hard work, nor is it burdensome.



JLB
 
JLB said:
Claiming that I am teaching a doctrine of works to earn salvation, while disregarding all the scriptures that teach us we must obey our Lord, to remain in His love, to remain in Him.
Click to expand...
What you have presented is a command to obey.
  • WE MUST ... TO REMAIN ...

JLB said:
Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24
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What Jesus said is a statement of fact.
  • HE WHO ... ABIDES.

You will probably never agree with me on the basics of English grammar, but a command is not a statement of fact. What Jesus SAID was that those who obey His commands (irrespective of how or why) as a point of fact do abide in Him. You twisted that into a command that we MUST obey His commands as a condition of remaining in His love. Your revision places the responsibility for obeying on the power and ability of man (which Jesus did not specify as the source of our strength to keep His commands). Your revision also places the burden for staying saved on man to obey which is nowhere in Jesus’ simple statement of fact.
 
JLB said:
First of all the word guarantee is earnest, which means down payment.

Secondly, please show the scripture that says...

If He is a guarantee, then the Saints (who have the Holy Spirit) WILL persevere to the end and receive the inheritance (ETERNAL LIFE).
Click to expand...

[Eph 1:14 NIV] 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.

[Eph 1:14 NLT] 14 The Spirit is God's guarantee that he will give us the inheritance he promised and that he has purchased us to be his own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify him.

[Eph 1:14 NASB] 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory.

[Eph 1:14 NKJV] 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

  1. We are God’s possession.
  2. God has purchased us.
  3. God will redeem (come to collect) the possession that He purchased and owns.
  4. The Holy Spirit GUARANTEES the first 3 points.

If the saints do not persevere, and God does not collect them, then there was no GUARANTEE, was there? The contract is not between God and man, so there are no conditions in THIS contract for man to fulfill. This contract is between God and Himself. We are just the “car” that God gave the surety to purchase.
 
[Philippians 2:12-13 NASB] 12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for [His] good pleasure.

  • Whose your daddy?
 
atpollard said:
I’ll get a sharpie and start crossing out false verses.

Is it enough to redact just the false verse, or should we reject the whole book as uninspired ... let’s see: goodbye John and Romans and Ephesians ...
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Interpretation is a powerful thing A sentence can mean an encouragement, or an absolute description. It can be a summary of loyalty, or a declaration of difference.

It all depends on belief, trust, acceptance and response. So this is complicated and involved, which leads to differing emphasis or the meaning of spiritual and physical.

Irony is how we love in our exchanges declares how much we walk in God's grace or our own understanding, is love our rock, or our theology is our perspective alone. The more our emotions embed in one view, others are dismissed as deluded, rather than empathetically reached out to.

I know Jesus and His love, which is enough. If He speaks I listen without fear. God bless you
 
JLB said:
I believe you are.

Did you return to God after backsliding?

I did.



JLB
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Here is a classic problem I would like to summarise.
I believe in OSAS for the elect, but only God knows the elect from the beginning of time.

Let us bow our knees before our Lord and King.
The apostles were chosen, Jesus went out of His way to say this

16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit--fruit that will last.
John 15:16

We talk about our choice as if this is measurable compared to the massive wave, the mountain, the unmeasurable desire of the Lord to bless and purchase His people from the world. But equally this King called us friends

15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.
John 15:15

Friendship is about choice and mutual appreciation. So here is the strange perspective, we are lost in sin, overwhelmed and victims of the sea of emotions and links we have with those around us. In this state Jesus is a nice guy who we vaguely see and listen to His humanistic "love" message, but like all idealists hopelessly optimistic.

But Jesus's calling and words sets a seed in our hearts which we can respond to. As we respond this seed grows and light starts to dawn in us. As we turn from sin to faith, and start to listen to our Lord and saviour, things written on a page become real in our lives. Now for some worries, jealousy, envy, unforgiveness come in and smother the word, and drag us away.

At the last day the harvest is finally drawn in, those who matured and walked in the faith, listening and following, empowered by the Holy Spirit. Choice was involved from the beginning along with predestined calling, all of which are true, yet which do we uplift the higher, or are they not all true in the mystery of light and darkness, sins deceitfulness and self justification besides humbleness and repentance with love for the King.

Mary and Martha. Mary was listening, Martha was working getting food ready, both were right but Mary chose the better option.
 
atpollard said:
What you have presented is a command to obey.
  • WE MUST ... TO REMAIN ...
Click to expand...


Yes. That is what the scriptures so plainly teach us.

What do you have against obeying Jesus Christ.


Who do you think we should obey, if not our Lord?

Who should we obey if not our Father?

Who should we obey if not our Husband?


If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.


“If you love Me, keep My commandments. John 14:15


All His commandments come down to love.

He wants us to obey His commandment to love our neighbor.

Thats how we demonstrate that we love Him, by loving His children.






JLB
 
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