Tasted Death for every Man !

[GodsGrace]

You should believe Jesus words as to who He specifically tasted death for Jn 10:11,15 ! He should know correct ?

I refuse to speak to you....
You're a one trick pony,,,,
and that type of pony knows only one way and can not even THINK of another.

I will, however, note when you are incorrect since this is an open forum.

 

[GodsGrace]

You should believe Jesus words as to who He specifically tasted death for Jn 10:11,15 ! He should know correct ?

You should believe Jesus' words instead of those of John Calvin.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi wondering,
No problem re the timing of your reply - always happy to hear what you think, Anyway ,I'm not entirely certain of what you mean? You state that "God did not send His Son to condemn the world". I agree - why would God send His son to condemn that which is already condemned? Makes sense to me. As you say, was already condemned (from Adam and Eve when they transgressed God's commandment - my comment).

Agreed. Good.

So then, by your statement that "God sent His son to save it", you're saying that everyone who ever lived upon this earth shall be saved ? The word "world" I would think, by definition, has to include everyone, right?

I can't go on about a word.
The bible does not function on a word basis.
It functions on an IDEA.
This is the idea:
God so loved THE WORLD that He sent His only Begotten Son that WHOSOVER believes in Him will not perish....

Now, how does WHOEVER believes in Him MEAN THE WHOLE WORLD??
It's plain English I think.

If not, then this world hasn't been saved because its inhabitants haven't been saved, and they're a part of it - don't forget it was Adam and Eve (people) who caused its fall,

Adam was human...he represented mankind.
Mankind fell.

and since Christ came to save that which was lost, all its inhabitants must be part of it. In other words, according to your explanation, everyone saved by Christ, has to be part of this "one world", since, as you've defined it, there is only one.

Christ does not represent man but God...He IS God.
Christ came to save what was lost...by the method that God chose.
That is by faith in God and belief in His Son.

You're changing my ideas to suit something YOU believe to be true as I've noticed from your posts.
Please don't do this.

Everyone is part of THIS WORLD, which is the only one available to us right now.
Not everyone in THIS WORLD is saved because they CHOOSE not to be by not following God's method of salvation.

I know we've had this discussion before, but I definitely DON'T think that one world is in view in the verse. With a "world to come" interpretation, the next one can be saved along with those under its auspices, without everyone who ever lived being saved. We know, biblically speaking, that not everyone is to be saved.

Agreed. But there is no WORLD TO COME interpretation.
The New Testament, and specifically John 3:16-18 is speaking about this world.
Those saved in THIS WORLD will be a part of the Next World....which we could call the New Jerusalem or the New Earth.

As always, and as the Bible informs, no prophecy of scripture is of any private interpretation. So, in addition to this verse, we need to consider others to come to a correct interpretation
To me the Bible is extremely clear about this.

Please observe:

[Luk 19:9-10 KJV]
9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.
10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

Anyway, I'll await your reply to this before proceeding - thx

What does Luke 19:9 have to do with this conversation? (of two worlds).
Zaccheus wanted to meet Jesus...he even climbed a tree to do so.
Jesus told Z that He wanted to have dinner at his house.
Z was willing to give back what he had stolen.
Jesus told him that salvation had come to him that day
and that he was a lost son of Abraham, come home.

What does this teach us?

1. Jesus was in town and was gathering persons around Himself. God makes Himself known.

2. Zaccheus was anxious to meet Jesus. A person is interested in meeting God.

3. Zaccheus climbs a tree to see Jesus. A person does what is necessary for salvation.

4. Jesus proclaims the salvation of Zaccheus, who was a lost son of Abraham and was now found again. (Romans 9:6-7)
Through God's grace...we are born again by faith and belief in God.

The above has nothing to do with two worlds OR I haven't understood what you mean by these two worlds.

 

[GodsGrace]

Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought you were saying Christ came to save this world, Is my understanding incorrect? I so, sorry

Christ came to save this world.
Correct.

Persons that know theology understand that this does not mean every single living person in this world.
This is not Christianity 101.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi wondering,

This is what I replied to:

"God sent His Son to save this world...It needs saving (not condemning)". I'm still a little confused myself - guess the old brain doesn't work too well anymore

Your brain works good.
I think you're getting different ideas mixed up
OR
I'm not understanding.

My previous long post should explain everything better.

 

[GodsGrace]

John 10:16 I have other sheep [beside these] that are not of this fold. I must bring those also, and they will listen to My voice and pay attention to My call, and they will become one flock with one Shepherd.
Could refer to Gentiles, future Christians, the people in the next town ... I assume you assume it refers to everyone without exception. This is contrary to:

1. the contents of the verse that point out the characteristics of the sheep ... they pay attention to Christ's call. If everyone without exception were Christ's sheep Christ says they will follow Him. Since everyone without exception does not follow Christ, logic dictates that not everyone is a sheep.
2. In the Gospel of Luke, the parable is as follows: He told them this parable. "Which of you men, if you had one hundred sheep, and lost one of them, wouldn't leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one that was lost, until he found it? When he has found it, he carries it on his shoulders, rejoicing. Notice, the Shepherd: wouldn't leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one that was lost, until he found it?

There are billions of people that are dead and never heard the gospel which is needed to be believed to be saved. It is abundantly clear that 'everyone without exception' is among Christ's sheep for it is abundantly clear that Christ wouldn't leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one [BILLIONS] that was lost, until he found it?


The idea that everyone without exception are Christ's sheep contradicts Matthew 25:31-46 where Christ separates the sheep from the goats.
Premise 1: Some people are referred to as sheep
Premise 2: Some people are referred to as goats
Conclusion: Everyone without exception cannot be Christ's sheep

No one on this thread believes that everyone will be saved.

Your number 1 is correct.
God calls and reveals Himself to man....
Man responds or does not respond. Free choice.
Again...no one here believes everyone on earth is a sheep...this is universalism.
Universalism is a heresy.

As to your number 2....
The shepherd left the 99 in an open pasture --
They stayed together. Usually sheep stay together.
It's normal for a shepherd to look for the lost sheep since the chances are it
will not find its way back to the fold and will die.

Also, I don't understand the reasoning behind number 2.

Why do you have difficulty understanding that some persons that do not know Jesus are STILL going to heaven?
Why do you not trust the New Testament?

 

[rogerg]

Christ came to save this world.

Well okay, at this point, I think we're just circling back around, so I guess until one of us has a change of mind
in some way, not much point in continuing, unless you see a benefit

 

[GodsGrace]

Well okay, at this point, I think we're just circling back around, so I guess until one of us has a change of mind
in some way, not much point in continuing, unless you see a benefit

OK. We'll have plenty of other chances to discuss.
The key is in John 3:16 and 3:17

3:17 God sent His Son so that the world should be saved through Him.

3:16 That WHOSOEVER believes in Him will be saved.


There is a condition to being saved...belief in Jesus.

But Jesus died for the whole world.....His sacrifice was sufficient. But the condition still applies.
1 John 2:2
2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

 

[Fastfredy0]

He's cherry picking which is a logical fallacy.

Cherry picking is not a logical fallacy. One can 'cherry pick' and draw a conclusion that is true or false.

Fallacies are common errors in reasoning that will undermine the logic of your argument. Fallacies can be either illegitimate arguments or irrelevant points, and are often identified because they lack evidence that supports their claim.
A logical fallacy is an error in reasoning common enough to warrant a fancy name.

Logical Fallacy Example
The argument from free will, also called the paradox of free will or theological fatalism, contends that omniscience and free will are incompatible and that any conception of God that incorporates both properties is therefore inconceivable.

 

[jaybo]

John 10:16 I have other sheep [beside these] that are not of this fold. I must bring those also, and they will listen to My voice and pay attention to My call, and they will become one flock with one Shepherd.
Could refer to Gentiles, future Christians, the people in the next town ... I assume you assume it refers to everyone without exception. This is contrary to:

1. the contents of the verse that point out the characteristics of the sheep ... they pay attention to Christ's call. If everyone without exception were Christ's sheep Christ says they will follow Him. Since everyone without exception does not follow Christ, logic dictates that not everyone is a sheep.
2. In the Gospel of Luke, the parable is as follows: He told them this parable. "Which of you men, if you had one hundred sheep, and lost one of them, wouldn't leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one that was lost, until he found it? When he has found it, he carries it on his shoulders, rejoicing. Notice, the Shepherd: wouldn't leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one that was lost, until he found it?

There are billions of people that are dead and never heard the gospel which is needed to be believed to be saved. It is abundantly clear that 'everyone without exception' is among Christ's sheep for it is abundantly clear that Christ wouldn't leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one [BILLIONS] that was lost, until he found it?


The idea that everyone without exception are Christ's sheep contradicts Matthew 25:31-46 where Christ separates the sheep from the goats.
Premise 1: Some people are referred to as sheep
Premise 2: Some people are referred to as goats
Conclusion: Everyone without exception cannot be Christ's sheep

I have no idea what you're talking about. You're using a parable about how every believer is important to the shepherd (as is the lost coin to the woman in the next parable and the one that follows it -- the son who wandered is important to the father) and talking about "Gentiles, future Christians, the people in the next town...",

Christ has a "flock" of believers that He cares about, so much so that like the lost sheep, the lost coin, and the "lost" son, He will make sure that they are not lost. That is what the parables are clearly about.

It is not about 'everyone without exception' is among Christ's sheep. That is contrary to Scripture. => Not everyone has been, is, or will be "among Christ's sheep", only those who "hear" (or read) the Gospel and accept it and accept Jesus as their savior. <=

 

[Fastfredy0]

I have no idea what you're talking about.

I guess I misunderstood your previous post. My bad.

 

[rogerg]

OK. We'll have plenty of other chances to discuss.
The key is in John 3:16 and 3:17

3:17 God sent His Son so that the world should be saved through Him.

3:16 That WHOSOEVER believes in Him will be saved.


There is a condition to being saved...belief in Jesus.

But Jesus died for the whole world.....His sacrifice was sufficient. But the condition still applies.
1 John 2:2
2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Okay, just so I get my 2 cents in too before we end

1. The world (this world) will not be saved ( I could be wrong but I thought you made that point too)
2. The "Whosoever" is generic. The question is : why do some become part of the "whosoever(s)" and some don't?
Answer: see #3
3. No one can have faith in Jesus (become part of the "whosoever(s)", unless first given to them as a gift from
God
4. If Jesus died for the sin of the world, and hence, remitted their sin, then the world, and those in it, cannot be
held liable for sin , period.
5. If He is the propitiation for ours and also the world's sins, then how can anyone be judged? By that logic,
everyone's sins were remitted. For any not covered (that is, having to face judgment), then He obviously wasn't
their propitiation. it simply can't be both ways at the same time. If the propitiation is for the whole world's sins,
then the whole world has to be covered by it. If it's not, then either He wasn't, or it wasn't.
6. (my own) - Jesus Christ is Savior. As Savior He had to do EVERYTHING necessary to save with nothing left undone
or left to us, to include faith. We are NOT saved by our faith, we are saved by Christ's faith - He was faithful to the
Father, we weren't. His faithfulness is given as a gift to those He saves.

 

[jaybo]

Okay, just so I get my 2 cents in too before we end

1. The world (this world) will not be saved ( I could be wrong but I thought you made that point too)
2. The "Whosoever" is generic. The question is : why do some become part of the "whosoever(s)" and some don't?
Answer: see #3
3. No one can have faith in Jesus (become part of the "whosoever(s)", unless first given to them as a gift from
God
4. If Jesus died for the sin of the world, and hence, remitted their sin, then the world, and those in it, cannot be
held liable for sin , period.
5. If He is the propitiation for ours and also the world's sins, then how can anyone be judged? By that logic,
everyone's sins were remitted. For any not covered (that is, having to face judgment), then He obviously wasn't
their propitiation. it simply can't be both ways at the same time. If the propitiation is for the whole world's sins,
then the whole world has to be covered by it. If it's not, then either He wasn't, or it wasn't.
6. (my own) - Jesus Christ is Savior. As Savior He had to do EVERYTHING necessary to save with nothing left undone
or left to us, to include faith. We are NOT saved by our faith, we are saved by Christ's faith - He was faithful to the
Father, we weren't. His faithfulness is given as a gift to those He saves.

Jesus' sacrifice paid the penalty for all sin for all time for all people but -- and this is most important -- His sacrifice must be accepted by everyone on their behalf. If I leave a gift for you somewhere, tell you what and where it is, but you don't get it (or worse, reject it!) then it's a waste. You haven't accepted the gift, even though it's yours for the taking.

 

[Fastfredy0]

You haven't accepted the gift, even though it's yours for the taking.

It's not a gift. A gift is "a thing given willingly to someone without payment (no conditions)". But to be saved by the dualism (belief in a power other than God's) of "free will" requires your to believe (belief being a condition and therefore not a gift) in the gospel.
The teaching that salvation is a "gift" is a trick to obscure the fact that a man's self-determined (free will) salvation requires a person to do something (a work) to be saved. (John 6:29 Jesus replied, “The work of God is this: to believe in the One He has sent” describes belief as a WORK and the WORK is done by God.)

A self-caused action (self-determination) is impossible, since a cause is prior to an effect, and one cannot be prior to himself. Therefore, all actions are ultimately caused by a God.

 

[rogerg]

Jesus' sacrifice paid the penalty for all sin for all time for all people but -- and this is most important -- His sacrifice must be accepted by everyone on their behalf. If I leave a gift for you somewhere, tell you what and where it is, but you don't get it (or worse, reject it!) then it's a waste. You haven't accepted the gift, even though it's yours for the taking.

Hi jaybo,
I disagree. Okay, I don't mean this disrespectfully, but what does whether we accept it or not have to do with anything? The transaction was entirely between Jesus and the Father and the Father was pleased with Jesus's offering and accepted it.
Those saved just happen to be its beneficiary. Actually, faith is a work and our works cannot save us as evidenced in John 6:28 & 9 below. Again, not to be disrespectful, but please read the below carefully

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

[Phl 3:9 KJV]
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
[Jhn 6:28 KJV] 28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
[Jhn 6:29 KJV] 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he
hath sent.

Faith is a work per 28 & 9

 

[JLB]

Actually, faith is a work and our works cannot save us

Faith must have the work of obedience to be complete, otherwise it remains dormant, dead, and inactive, like a body without a spirit is dead, being incomplete and lifeless, unable to function.


Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect (complete)? James 2:21-22


The work that Abraham did was to obey the word from the Lord to offer his son Isaac on the altar.


It was the work of obedience, and what Paul calls the obedience of faith.


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
Romans 16:26






JLB

 

[rogerg]

If I leave a gift for you somewhere, tell you what and where it is, but you don't get it (or worse, reject it!) then it's a waste. You haven't accepted the gift, even though it's yours for the taking

Sorry, I didn't see this point earlier.
Here's how I understand it: When you say "accepted the gift", that statement isn't really precise enough. More precisely, a gift ISN'T a gift until it is in the possession of the recipient. So when called a gift, it has to mean that the receiver already has it. We as human beings speak for our purposes with a level of precision necessary for our purposes. However, the Bible (in its original form), was perfectly precise. So to us, if something is intended to be a gift, even though not yet given, we sill call it a gift. We may intend it to be such, but, that intention isn't enough to make it one.
Not so with the Bible. When the Bible calls something a gift, it already it truly has a become a gift to its fullest extent
possible with nothing required from its receiver.

 

[rogerg]

Faith must have the work of obedience to be complete, otherwise it remains dormant, dead, and inactive, like a body without a spirit is dead, being incomplete and lifeless, unable to function.

Obedience: Christ's obedience, which He perfectly achieved, but not ours. God through the Holy Spirit MAKES us obedient as a byproduct of salvation, but not as the cause of it.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect (complete)? James 2:21-22

Christ's faithfulness brought forth Abraham's works. By Christ's faith were Abraham's works made perfect.

The work that Abraham did was to obey the word from the Lord to offer his son Isaac on the altar.

We ARE called unto good works but after being given faith
[2Ti 3:17 KJV] 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
Romans 16:26

[Rom 16:25 KJV] 25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
[Rom 16:26 KJV] 26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
[Rom 16:27 KJV] 27 To God only wise, [be] glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.


[

 

[JLB]

Obedience: Christ's obedience, which He perfectly achieved, but not ours.

Sorry bro, but please read the scriptures I posted.


Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect (complete)? James 2:21-22


Abraham obeyed the word from God to offer his Issac on the altar. By this work of obedience, the obedience of faith he was justified by God

We are all called to obey the Gospel command, repent.

I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’
“Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. Acts 26:17-20


It is by obeying this command, in which we turn to God and submit ourselves to Jesus Christ as Lord, our Master whom we obey, that we receive the forgiveness of our sins.


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9


Confessing Jesus as Lord, is how we repent; turn to God.

This is called obeying the Gospel.

The obedience of faith.



JLB

 

[JLB]

We ARE called unto good works but after being given faith
[2Ti 3:17 KJV] 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

The scripture is not talking about “good works”.


Its specifcally instructs us that Abraham was justified by the work of obedience, just like everyone else is justified by the obedience of faith.


Abraham obeyed the word from God, by which he received faith.

Do you understand that is how we are saved by faith?


We obey the Gospel.



JLB