THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT CALVINISM AND WHAT HE TAUGHT. PLEASE STAY ON TOPIC USING SCRIPTURE FOR THAT OF WHAT YOU BELIEVE IN YOUR UNDERSTANDING. ANY MORE TALK ABOUT CALVINISM WILL BE DELETED.
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Tasted Death for every Man !
- Thread starter brightfame52
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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However, the title of the thread deals with one of the points of Calvinism's TULIP, i.e. L = limited atonement. Did Jesus die for every person or not?
Regardless of what Calvinism's TULIP says, the Bible clearly says that Jesus died for all.
John 3:16, " For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Notice that it says "whoever..." So, Jesus died for every person. Period.
Don't think so. The "whoever" states that all who truly believe have been given eternal life, but it does not state that all CAN truly believe - its focus is exclusively on those who have been destined to believe -- that they alone have been/will be given eternal life. Those who are not of God cannot hear God's words, and without God's words (spiritually speaking) cannot believe. See the following:
[Luk 22:67 KJV] 67 Art thou the Christ? tell us. And he said unto them, If I tell you, ye will not believe:
[Jhn 8:45-47 KJV] 45 And because I tell [you] the truth, ye believe me not.
46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God.
[Jhn 12:37 KJV] 37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
[Jhn 12:39-40 KJV]
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
jaybo,
"whoever believes in him" is true for those who believe in him. In my understanding, "whoever" does not refer to "every person" but refers to those who decide to believe in Jesus.
I think it's a big leap to make "whoever" mean "every person" in common understanding of language.
Oz
There is a book that does exactly that. It is called the Bible. It identifies all of the rules, techniques, and insights necessary to interpret it -- it is its own user's manual.
Any tools outside of itself that might be perceived as useful, are themselves subject to the exact same problem you mention above.
"decide to believe"? How then do you interpret this verse?
[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
According to the above, true faith (belief) is given as a fruit of the Spirit. The Spirit is only given to someone if they become born again. So then, how can the acquiring of true faith be the result of our decision?
Do you believe people are saved first, then they believe?
Faith comes to us when we hear the Gospel. It is by believing and therefore obeying the Gospel that we are saved.
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Romans 10:16-17
JLB
Believe is a verb, (an action), faith is a noun, (something we receive by hearing).
Faith comes from God. Noun
Believe is the action we must do in order for the faith we have received to become “activated” (alive), otherwise faith remains “dormant” and dead, inactive. Verb
Believe is our part that we must do in response to hearing the Gospel.
However the word “belief”, which is used in 2 Thessalonians 2:13, is a noun and is the same Greek word as faith.
But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,
2 Thessalonians 2:13
Salvation is wrought through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. Obeying the truth.
JLB
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Faith comes by hearing God, whether directly or indirectly through the Gospel.
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Romans 10:17
This is a precursor to salvation.
The fruit or what is a product of the Spirit dwelling within born again Christians; those who are already saved is listed in Galatians 5…
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Galatians 5:22
Two different situations.
JLB
What I was trying to convey is that we use scripture and not the teachings/doctrines of man. There is to much secular teaching and not enough of the word of God being taught in full context of the scriptures.
whoever definition: the person or people who; any person who
It makes no sense to say "whoever" and not mean everyone. "Whoever believes..." means just that. "Everyone who believes..." mean exactly the same thing.
Yes, I believe we are saved/born again first, and from that, believe.
[1Pe 1:23 KJV] 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
[Eph 4:23-24 KJV]
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
[Tit 3:5-7 KJV]
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
In order to "hear", Christ as the Holy Spirit, first had to indwelt them i.e., make them born again.
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Where do you find that concept in the Bible - the concept that we must activate it? Were that necessary, then we would in effect be our own savior, which is not a possibility. I understand the difference between a noun and a verb, but I see both forms as coming from, and a result of, the same source which is God. Isn't it like saying we need to first believe to activate belief? What else would move someone want to activate it (given that is really necessary to do)? If you think it is through faith that causes it, then hasn't that faith functioned as belief?
[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
So, it is only through, and by, Christ's faith that anyone believes, and not of us.
Those who will be given eternal life, not who will believe. The doctrine of who will believe is addressed elsewhere
Except for what John 3:16 clearly says: “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."
That clearly states that you must believe first to be "born again". Your verses simply state what happens after you're "born again".
John 3:16 doesn't say "born again", it says "shall not perish, but have eternal life".
While one can't happen without the other, it is good to phrase our thoughts precisely.
It doesn't clearly state that.
It does not say, nor does it imply that belief must occur "first" before eternal life is given, but it does state that those given eternal life are they who believe but not because they believe -- it simply associates the two: belief and eternal life. However, it is not addressing who they are that can believe or why. The explanation for that occurs elsewhere in the Bible, not in John 3:15 - 16.
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That's why I put it in quotes. I did phrase my thoughts precisely. Would you prefer John 3:3, "Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” They're both quotes from when Jesus spoke to Nicodemus. Would you have preferred that I quote the entire chapter? Would that make it easier for you to understand?
Christ and the Holy Spirit are separate. As Christ ascended up to sit at the right hand of the Father, the Holy Spirit was brought down. We are indwelled with the Holy Spirit at the time of our Spiritual rebirth.
John14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.