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for_his_glory

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Where do you find that concept in the Bible - the concept that we must activate it? Were that necessary, then we would in effect be our own savior, which is not a possibility. I understand the difference between a noun and a verb, but I see both forms as coming from, and a result of, the same source which is God. Isn't it like saying we need to first believe to activate belief? What else would move someone want to activate it (given that is really necessary to do)? If you think it is through faith that causes it, then hasn't that faith functioned as belief?

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

So, it is only through, and by, Christ's faith that anyone believes, and not of us.
Faith of Christ

Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The faith of Christ is understood as we study these scriptures to name a few in the KJV, John 12:44-50; Galatians 2:16; Philippians 3:9). The newer translations has changed where it says faith of Christ to faith in Christ. There is a difference between faith of Christ and faith in Christ as you can read in those scriptures out of the KJV. The faith of Christ is what He believed in the Father as He never said or did anything above that which God gave Him to speak or to do while He was on earth, John 12:49, 50. Our faith in Christ is the same faith of Christ He had in the Father as we can never go above that of what He taught us and the works He left for us to follow in.

The Son of God is that free gift of God's grace given to all who will believe by faith in Christ and confess Him as Lord and Savior so they will see the kingdom of God, Ephesians 2:8-10; John 3:5-7; Romans 10:9, 10. There is no working towards something that is free as all we have to do is accept the gift. Believe is a verb that means something we consider to be true as we have heard the Gospel and not only heard it, but also believe what is written for our well being.

Faith works come after we are Spiritually born again and indwelled with the Holy Spirit that empowers us to go out into the world and continue in the good works of the Lord, Acts 2:37, 38; James 2:14-20. The good works are taking His Gospel message to the world as we too are His disciples and to love and help those in need as what we do we do unto the glory of the Lord Christ Jesus, Matthew 25:31-40
 

for_his_glory

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John 3:16 doesn't say "born again", it says "shall not perish, but have eternal life".
While one can't happen without the other, it is good to phrase our thoughts precisely.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Kingdom of God is eternal life to whosoever will believe in Him.
 

rogerg

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Christ and the Holy Spirit are separate. As Christ ascended up to sit at the right hand of the Father, the Holy Spirit was brought down. We are indwelled with the Holy Spirit at the time of our Spiritual rebirth.
Just so I understand, you don't believe that Jesus was/is God and that there is only one God?
 

OzSpen

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There is a book that does exactly that. It is called the Bible. It identifies all of the rules, techniques, and insights necessary to interpret it -- it is its own user's manual.
Any tools outside of itself that might be perceived as useful, are themselves subject to the exact same problem you mention above.

roger,

The Bible is not self-interpreting. You need to follow the rules of word usage, grammar and syntax. If you don't do that you run the possibility of engaging in eisegesis.

Oz
 

rogerg

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The faith of Christ is what He believed in the Father as He never said or did anything above that which God gave Him to speak or to do while He was on earth, John 12:49, 50. Our faith in Christ is the same faith of Christ He had in the Father as we can never go above that of what He taught us and the works He left for us to follow in.

If I understand you correctly, the points you made I see fundamentally differently than you do, so I hardly know where to begin. Because of that, I am hesitant to dialogue further regarding those differences as we will never be able to reconcile them - they are just too deep and numerous and would go on forever (figuratively speaking). If you don't happen to believe that Jesus is God, then we diverge from the very first step with many more steps to go.

If I've misunderstood your position regarding who Christ was/is, please let me know.

[Phl 2:6-7 KJV]
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
 

rogerg

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The Bible is not self-interpreting. You need to follow the rules of word usage, grammar and syntax. If you don't do that you run the possibility of engaging in eisegesis.

Oz,
I believe that it is self-interpreting. While I'm all for understanding the meaning of the words used in/by the Bible, I think that if you base your understanding of the Bible's message solely upon what you've mentioned above, then you will only facilitate and come to an independent verse by verse, limited secular understanding of the Bible, but miss the common spiritual messages that spans across its books. Take the word "fast" (as in fasting) for example. No matter how much external research we might do into the word "fast" as it is used in Mat 6:17, we would miss the spiritual meaning that had God assigned/intended for it. In Mat 6:17 our understanding of the word would lead us to believe it means to not eat, or as a form of self-denial of some kind. However, should we look at Isaiah 58:5 - 8, and compare between them, we can see the definition that God applies to it is completely different from what a lexicon would give us. In God's eyes, to fast is to share the Gospel with others. This technique of comparing is necessary for us to use because God wrote the Bible to be its own dictionary and glossary of terms (amongst other functions He employed), apart from that found within commonly accepted language definitions/usage. The below may not be the best possible example because I chose it quickly, but I think you might get the idea from it.

[Mat 6:17 KJV]
17 But thou, when thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy face;

[Isa 58:5-8 KJV]
5 Is it such a fast that I have chosen? a day for a man to afflict his soul? [is it] to bow down his head as a bulrush, and to spread sackcloth and ashes [under him]? wilt thou call this a fast, and an acceptable day to the LORD?
6 [Is] not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?
7 [Is it] not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?
8 Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the LORD shall be thy rereward.

The following are some (but not all) of the Bible's directions/insights that it provides to us regarding its self-interpretation:

[Mat 13:34 KJV] 34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

[1Co 2:13 KJV] 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

[2Pe 1:20 KJV] 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

[Gal 4:24 KJV] 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

[2Ti 2:14-15 KJV]
14 Of these things put [them] in remembrance, charging [them] before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, [but] to the subverting of the hearers.
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

By "rightly dividing", I believe it is telling us to find and focus on the spiritual component of each verse not the temporal and to analyze it relative to the spiritual of other like verses throughout the Bible.

Hope this makes sense.

Roger
 
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JLB

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Yes, I believe we are saved/born again first, and from that, believe.

[1Pe 1:23 KJV] 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,
1 Peter 1:22-23


We are born again by first hearing, then believing and therefore obeying the Gospel.


No one is born again apart from hearing and believing the Gospel Message of Jesus Christ.




JLB
 

JLB

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14 Of these things put [them] in remembrance, charging [them] before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, [but] to the subverting of the hearers.
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

By "rightly dividing", I believe it is telling us to find and focus on the spiritual component of each verse not the temporal and to analyze it relative to the spiritual of other like verses throughout the Bible.

Rightly dividing is the straightforward interpretation of the scriptures; the scriptures mean what they say.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16


No one is saved, born again or regenerated and therefore cleansed and forgiven of their sins except through believing and obeying the Gospel; the word of truth.






JLB
 

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That's why I put it in quotes. I did phrase my thoughts precisely. Would you prefer John 3:3, "Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” They're both quotes from when Jesus spoke to Nicodemus. Would you have preferred that I quote the entire chapter? Would that make it easier for you to understand?
Ok.
After going back and seeing what you were answering to, I agree with your post.
Like you, it is not my belief that a man can be born again or saved, without belief first.
 

rogerg

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Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,
1 Peter 1:22-23


We are born again by first hearing, then believing and therefore obeying the Gospel.


No one is born again apart from hearing and believing the Gospel Message of Jesus Christ.

The verse that you yourself chose, tells us that it all "through the Spirit" - becoming born again and all the fruits thereof are through/by the Spirit.

Regarding obedience, we are told that we receive it through/by God:

[Rom 1:4-6 KJV]
4 And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

No one can have faith UNTIL becoming born again. Faith comes to us from/by spiritual rebirth:

[Gal 5:18, 22 KJV]
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. ...
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

[Rom 8:14 KJV]
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
 

rogerg

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Rightly dividing is the straightforward interpretation of the scriptures; the scriptures mean what they say.
That can't be. The Bible tells us:

[1Co 2:13 KJV] 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

For the verse to be able to tell us to compare the spiritual with the spiritual, there has to also be in the Bible the temporal, which by definition, the temporal is not the Gospel.

[1Pe 2:2 KJV] 2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
 
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rogerg

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Like you, it is not my belief that a man can be born again or saved, without belief first.
Okay, I realize this is not my discussion and sorry to interrupt, but I would like to quickly present the following verse for your consideration. Before becoming saved/born again, we are all of the "natural man" category. If the things of the Spirit of God are foolishness unto the unsaved (as the verse below informs us), then they cannot possibly know them, and are incapable of knowing them, and therefore, of themselves, it is impossible for them to come to faith in Christ before and unless first becoming born again.

[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
 

JLB

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The verse that you yourself chose, tells us that it all "through the Spirit" - becoming born again and all the fruits thereof are through/by the Spirit.

Yes, the Spirit is how we are born again.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6


Nevertheless each person must believe and therefore obey the Gospel message in order to be born again.

No one is born again apart from the Gospel, which is the incorruptible seed of the word of God.








JLB
 

JLB

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That can't be. The Bible tells us:

[1Co 2:13 KJV] 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Do you believe what the Holy Spirit teaches?


Rightly Dividing --

Strong's G3718 - orthotomeō

  1. to cut straight, to cut straight ways
    1. to proceed on straight paths, hold a straight course, equiv. to doing right
  2. to make straight and smooth, to handle aright, to teach the truth directly and correctly
 

JLB

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That can't be. The Bible tells us:

[1Co 2:13 KJV] 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

For the verse to be able to tell us to compare the spiritual with the spiritual, there has to also be in the Bible the temporal, which by definition, the temporal is not the Gospel.

[1Pe 2:2 KJV] 2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:


Would you explain how a person becomes born again, without hearing and believing the Gospel?
 

rogerg

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Would you explain how a person becomes born again, without hearing and believing the Gospel?

Being born again is entirely God's work: to truly hear spiritually, perceive things spiritual, and believe, comes from that; they are result, not cause. It occurs when God saves someone chosen for such and indwells them with the Holy Spirit -- being born again is solely a gift from God with no input from us. Otherwise, it would be our work not Gods, and we cannot be saved by our work.

[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

[Jas 1:17 KJV]
17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
[Jas 3:17 KJV]
17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, [and] easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
 

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Faith of Christ

Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The faith of Christ is understood as we study these scriptures to name a few in the KJV, John 12:44-50; Galatians 2:16; Philippians 3:9). The newer translations has changed where it says faith of Christ to faith in Christ. There is a difference between faith of Christ and faith in Christ as you can read in those scriptures out of the KJV. The faith of Christ is what He believed in the Father as He never said or did anything above that which God gave Him to speak or to do while He was on earth, John 12:49, 50. Our faith in Christ is the same faith of Christ He had in the Father as we can never go above that of what He taught us and the works He left for us to follow in.

The Son of God is that free gift of God's grace given to all who will believe by faith in Christ and confess Him as Lord and Savior so they will see the kingdom of God, Ephesians 2:8-10; John 3:5-7; Romans 10:9, 10. There is no working towards something that is free as all we have to do is accept the gift. Believe is a verb that means something we consider to be true as we have heard the Gospel and not only heard it, but also believe what is written for our well being.

Faith works come after we are Spiritually born again and indwelled with the Holy Spirit that empowers us to go out into the world and continue in the good works of the Lord, Acts 2:37, 38; James 2:14-20. The good works are taking His Gospel message to the world as we too are His disciples and to love and help those in need as what we do we do unto the glory of the Lord Christ Jesus, Matthew 25:31-40

My preferred translation (and others) says "faith in Christ", not "faith of Christ". Why should I reject modern scholarship over the scholarship of men who lived 400 years ago? Clearly, the language of that time is different than modern English, the language we all use in 2022. And those KJV translators were not especially gifted.
 

rogerg

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Do you believe what the Holy Spirit teaches?


Rightly Dividing --

Strong's G3718 - orthotomeō

  1. to cut straight, to cut straight ways
    1. to proceed on straight paths, hold a straight course, equiv. to doing right
  2. to make straight and smooth, to handle aright, to teach the truth directly and correctly

Yes, and the Holy Spirit teaches us (amongst other things) this regarding the interpreting of the Bible:

[2Pe 1:20 KJV] 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

[1Co 2:13 KJV] 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

If the Bible was meant by God to be understood just on its face as any other book is, then why did He bother to give us the above instructions (amongst others)? The reason is because the true believers are intended by God to find His spiritual doctrines in the Bible, although on the surface they appear temporal. What do you think the parables that He spoke represent? How would they measure against the definition you provided in your reply?

If you would, please read the below carefully

[Mat 13:10-11, 13 KJV]
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. ...
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

[Mat 13:16 KJV]
16 But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

It is no different today than it was then - the Holy Spirit upon becoming born-again, gives to the recipient spiritual eyes that see and spiritual ears that hear.
 

rogerg

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Nevertheless each person must believe and therefore obey the Gospel message in order to be born again.

No one is born again apart from the Gospel, which is the incorruptible seed of the word of God.

Until born-again, no one can truly hear or obey the Gospel message. Again, please consider the following:

[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

According to the above verse, until saved/born again, no one can receive the things of the Spirit, so, based upon that, it is impossible to believe or obey.
All of us were, or are, of the "natural man" category beginning in the womb and continuing until born-again or dying.
 

rogerg

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My preferred translation (and others) says "faith in Christ", not "faith of Christ". Why should I reject modern scholarship over the scholarship of men who lived 400 years ago?

[Rom 3:22 KJV] 22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Because the righteousness of God wasn't "by" man's faith or by anything else man could do, but only by (through) Christ's faith - the faith of Christ.

[Rev 2:13 KJV]
13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, [even] where Satan's seat [is]: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas [was] my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
 
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