Taxing the Church

[Corn Pop]

And those homes were... buildings. Those homes were fine when the church was new and small. But once again apparently you don't live in the same kind of community I live in. No one in my community is rich enough to have a house big enough for a congregation of a few hundred people to meet in. Almost no church congregation here is small enough to fit into anyone's private home here. (And, no, there is no instruction in scripture limiting the size of church congregations. Getting larger was the natural progression of the early church.) Not to mention holding church meetings of that size in a private home is a violation of zoning laws where most private homes are located, and these laws have been enforced at times. Whether you agree with zoning laws or not, there are legitimate reasons for them and being Christians doesn't give us the right to break laws like that.

Well Jesus talked to everyone on a hill, outside in the fresh air, because he couldnt fit them all into a building.

And guess what, it was all free and didnt cost him a cent.

 

[Obadiah]

Well Jesus talked to everyone on a hill, outside in the fresh air, because he couldnt all fit into a building.

And guess what, it was all free and didnt cost him a cent.

You are totally missing the point of that section of scripture. The point was WHAT Jesus taught, not WHERE he was standing when he taught it. By your logic even the early churches meeting in houses (which you previously supported as being right) were going against what Jesus taught. This is certainly misreading scripture. Also, Jesus lived in a dry temperate climate, not in a rain forest or in an arctic climate. Do you really expect me to believe that if Jesus lived in one of these climates in winter he would have been outside standing on a hill expecting people to gather around to hear him? I didn't think so. Jesus was certainly not making a statement that the church would from then on be required to meet outside on a hill.

You know, it seems we've had this conversation before, and it was futile. To be honest I'm finding little logic or practicality in it and I've grown weary of it. I'm moving on to a different conversation now.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

You know, what I actually said was "...after proving them wrong...". I kind of use that as a figure of speech to convey that in my mind I proved them wrong, but in reality while it was proven to several other people who saw what happened, I guess I wasn't able to actually prove it to the board because they never changed. I feel that was at least partly because they turned a blind eye to God's power, lead by the pastor who said prayer doesn't work. It's notable that this same pastor recently announced the he is in reality an atheist and never had any true faith in God!

I hope other members will tolerate me for this post, because this goes off topic of taxing the church, but I want to explain to you (and anyone else who is curious) what happened. Perhaps those who aren't interested can just indulge me by scrolling past?

This was the situation; The church had a thriving youth ministry that had begun to fall apart because of a change in leadership. The youth leader position had been a paid position, but the new leader had been told that the church was struggling for money and would not be able to pay until the financial situation improved. So the new leader took the position on a volunteer basis on that promise. The problem was that over the next two years even though a salary was written into the budget for a paid youth worker, the financial situation hadn't improved and this was one of the budget items the board chose not to pay since the money wasn't there. The new leader was having to work 2 other jobs as well as run the youth ministry, which was not working out. The youth ministry was suffering badly as a result.

I was on the board of deacons when it was time to write up the new budget, and the new proposed budget that was passed out for approval had now completely eliminated the youth workers salary. They weren't even going to hope for it anymore! I pointed out that (as I had been telling them for quite some time) that this was an important ministry of the church that deserved to not be ignored, and that removing this salary from the budget sends a message that they no longer supported it. I also contrasted this with the fact that they were paying the same salary for a janitor (who in contrast to the youth worker was an outside employee, not even someone who attended any church, and did nothing directly to edify people), which showed the money was actually available but paying someone to clean their buildings was simply a higher priority to them than was the spiritual welbeing of their teenagers. (Please, don't anyone use this as a springboard to go into the pros and cons of church youth ministry. My post here is already off topic. If you want to do that, please start another thread in an appropriate section.) I recommended instead of eliminating the youth worker salary that they find volunteers from the congregation to clean the buildings and use the money from the janitor's salary to pay the youth workers salary instead. (In fact I was anticipating, and knew the youth leader would approve, of the cleaning of the buildings becoming a service project of the youth group.) I felt this was a more appropriate use of the money, but not a single person wanted anything to do with that idea.

Now I had just finished leading a series for the church adults on the power of prayer that was based on Jim Cymbala's experiences in building the Brooklyn Tabernacle, which was full of examples of God suddenly providing money for ministry needs when Jim and his leadership had no finances available but they still trusted Him to provide if the particular thing was indeed what He wanted. He showed in his examples how if God wants the church to do a particular thing, He will provide whatever is needed, even if the need is large amounts of money. Sadly not a single board member put out any effort to attend the series I taught, but I thought I at least had an ally in the pastor because he was the one that requested I teach the series.

So I proposed to the board to do this: Let's not fire the janitor. He's done a good job and deserves to keep his wages. Let's instead leave the youth worker's salary in the budget as well, and lets all sincerely pray, asking God to provide the money if indeed He wants this type of ministry and wants it run this way. That's when the pastor looked me straight in the eye and told me in front of the entire board that praying usually doesn't work! I was so shocked I was at a loss for words! All I could think to say was "I'm going to pray that God provides this money anyway". The board simply went on to discuss other items and had nothing more to say on the issue. (And the line item for the salary was put back in as a compromise to me, but the amount was set to $0. A lot of faith that shows, right? It was just an attempt to shut me up because they didn't like anyone rocking their boat.)

So what happened? Up until that time the offerings coming in had only been enough to cover the expenses they needed to pay each week, hardly ever an extra penny. Usually we were short and had to let some expenses wait. The very next Sunday the offering increased. We got enough money to pay all of that weeks bills plus any that were overdue. In addition we got extra money. How much extra? The amount, almost to the penny, that would have been the youth worker's salary for that week. What happened the next week? The same thing. Enough money came it to cover all bills with an extra amount to cover what would have been the youth worker's salary for another week. This happened on average every Sunday after I started asking God to provide the funds if it was his will to fund this ministry in this way. If one Sunday was a little short, another would be a little over until it added up to the exact amount needed, This happened every Sunday... FOR THE NEXT TWO YEARS!

The board never acknowledged that this was God's doing at all. They were happy to get the money and have the stress of figuring out which bills to pay and which to let go, but they never acknowledged it was God's doing in order to fund the youth ministry. The congregation also grew in size. (This was eventually where the continued additional money came from.) There was no reason for the congregation to be growing. There was no advertising being done, and in fact nothing different at all was being done. Yet for the first time in the history of this church the congregation withing a few months increased for about 50 to over 250 in a typical Sunday morning worship service. That was about all the building could hold! So God was not only providing the money, but the source He was using to do that had the added benefit of bringing more people into fellowship! Isn't God just... just so smart???

But instead of acknowledging God's provision and funding the youth ministry and using it for that... they squirreled all the extra money away in the bank for another two years and, incredibly and inexplicably asked the youth worker to resign and canceled what remnants of the youth program they still had! Then they took all the money God had provided for youth ministry and bought nice new carpeting for the entire church building because... mainly because the pastor didn't like the color of the old carpeting! Yes, it was a bit worn, but still looked fine and was still serviceable maybe with a few repairs here and there. But every time the subject came up, the pastor was constantly talking about how he didn't like the color. So the youth worker salary that God gave them was used to buy carpet.

At that point I changed my prayers and told God that I was disappointed in the way they had handled this and from that point on all I would ask of Him was to do His will in the situation. I would no longer ask Him to provide money, but just to do what He chose to do whate4ver that might be. By this time they had already lost all of their teenagers. So from that point on the money stopped coming in and all those people who were providing it gradually left until the average attendance was back down to about 50 to 80 people.

Yet, when I pointed any of this out to the board, they just silently ignored me. The pastor, to his credit, did nod his head a few times when I talked to him in private and tried to point this out, as if he understood what I was saying, but yet he refused to come right out and acknowledge it. (A few years later this same pastor admitted he was actually an atheist, never did have faith in God, and admitted he wasn't qualified to be a pastor. He was immediately fired.)

So as you can see, I never really did prove anything to the boards. Some individuals, especially some of the teens parents, understood. But the boards as a whole, including the pastor, lead deacon and lead elder all refused to see God's working and continually refused to put their faith in Him. So nothing was ever proven to them as a whole. Maybe to one or two of them, but not as a group.

That's really sad. I'm sorry that that outcome, and the whole of the sitution happened. But thank God for answering your prayers.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

I wonder if all the people on the board were payed members, and why they were all debating how to pay a promised worker, and the bills, they never thought once to each take a cut from there own salaries to pay the worker.

There's no reason to speculate at this point. They've already shown themselves in a bad way, even to the point of the pastor having no faith. There's no reason to make it out to be worse then it is known to be.

..... On that note though Kiwidan, I've got a concern for you based on the replies I've seen from you regarding topics about churches. I hope it's without merrit, but...
Do you have much fellowship with other Christians outside of this forum? I don't know that you have a church to go to based on how it seems you feel about churches in your area, or churches in general. But I hope you do get some fellowship and companionship among other Christians in the real world.

 

[JohnDB]

I'll agree that some churches and "famous" preachers abuse the system. Some have been hauled before Congress and interrogated for their lavish lifestyle.

One in particular has only a small chapel but a billion dollar compound filled with antiques and art and collectables.

And really poor boards of directors who have the wrong ideas about churches.

But I've seen others who give and do and are truly great institutions. A real benefit to their Communities.
So throw out the whole barrel because of a few bad apples?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I'll agree that some churches and "famous" preachers abuse the system. Some have been hauled before Congress and interrogated for their lavish lifestyle.

One in particular has only a small chapel but a billion dollar compound filled with antiques and art and collectables.

And really poor boards of directors who have the wrong ideas about churches.

But I've seen others who give and do and are truly great institutions. A real benefit to their Communities.
So throw out the whole barrel because of a few bad apples?

Yes.
The Bible warns against being unevenly yoked,
A bad church needs to be exposed for what it is.
Paul exposed bad leaders in the Corinthian church.

 

[Obadiah]

It was

That's really sad. I'm sorry that that outcome, and the whole of the sitution happened. But thank God for answering your prayers.

It was sad, especially because the same kind of thing is happening in far more churches than Christians in general are aware of. And it's the worst kind of sad in that when God performed a miracle they (the leaders) would not come out and acknowledge that it even happened, much less that it was a miracle from God! They just passed it off as coincidence and assumed it would probably stop happening soon. Not all of them, mind you. There was at least one other on the board of Deacons who saw it for what it was, but no one would listen to him either. There were also a handful of congregation members who knew about this and realized it was a miracle from God, and were just as perplexed as I was at the leadership's mishandling of it. They've all left that church now except for possibly one, but I'm no longer there either so I'm not even sure that one still goes there.

To be honest, I did return to that church for a time before the pastor announced his atheism. But that was only because they offered me a job doing something that no one else there could do (and that I really enjoyed doing) so they had to offer it as a paid position to entice anyone who could do it properly to come there and do it. They were never again "my church", they were only my "employer" at that point. Even then it got to the point that I couldn't deal with them anymore. They could see this too as I wasn't good at hiding it, and one day they asked me to leave.

 

[JohnDB]

To make a reminder to a previous post....Jesus taught in synagogues every Saturday... The Temple during certain seasons...and at other times wherever there was room.

But as to the subject Obadiah is referring to (which is on the same lines as is taxing churches)...the Fear of the Lord.

It seems to be absent in America these days.

It does seem that even though warnings have been clearly given fear and respect for God is about out the window.
We want to hear all about "buddy Christ" but don't worry about what holy, holy holy really means.
And that tiny bit about holy, holy, Holy should be terrifying.
How many died in the Old Covenant and in the New because of their lack of fear?
Same God today, yesterday and tomorrow.
Loving kindness goes along with holy, holy, holy...but watch out for being the subject on the wrong side of if.

 

[Corn Pop]

I just think everything has gone a bit crazy. Why does fellowship have to be a big mass in a building with all types of board members and stuff.

Joe and his family is at Peters house and Sam and John is at Freds house, while Fred is going to visit Peter next week to catch up.

Is fellowship not suppose to be believers who are friends with other believers who can meet anytime, anyplace for a bit of prayer and worship and maybe have a cup of tea and a scone?. Just like unbelieving friends do?, except they dont pray and worship, they drink and watch the football. Lol.

 

[stovebolts]

Too bad they couldn't filter...
If you run a church like a business, then it should be taxed like a business.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Regardless of what people think about church organizations, they do provide things that Christians need.
Fellowship
Bible Study
Ministries to serve God
Opportunities to share the gifts God has given to you with others

We can't just dwell on the negative and then throw the whole system away.
The best thing to do is get involved and quietly try to serve God without causing trouble.
Stop looking at others
Look at what you are doing to please God.
Someone out there needs a word from each one of us.
Will they ever hear it?

 

[Obadiah]

I just think everything has gone a bit crazy. Why does fellowship have to be a big mass in a building with all types of board members and stuff.

It doesn't have to be. But it can be. Just like it doesn't have to be just a few people in a house, but it can be. A person who prefers one type should not condemn those who prefer another type. We are told to have fellowship. We are not told to limit the number of people who can be part of that fellowship just as we are not told that we have to have over a certain number of people to have fellowship. It's simply not an issue.

 

[jasonc]

Too bad they couldn't filter...
If you run a church like a business, then it should be taxed like a business.

There Are Many NOT For Profit HOSPITALS THAT Are Church operated.These DO CHARGE AND Assist THE indigent.So Tax them?

 

[Corn Pop]

It doesn't have to be. But it can be. Just like it doesn't have to be just a few people in a house, but it can be. A person who prefers one type should not condemn those who prefer another type. We are told to have fellowship. We are not told to limit the number of people who can be part of that fellowship just as we are not told that we have to have over a certain number of people to have fellowship. It's simply not an issue.

Thats fine. People can work and pay there bills and give a donation that pays board members, pastors, and more rent, or, they can meet with fellow believers at each others homes, who all work and pay there bills, and can give directly to charity.

 

[stovebolts]

There Are Many NOT For Profit HOSPITALS THAT Are Church operated.These DO CHARGE AND Assist THE indigent.So Tax them?

Sure, why not?

 

[Obadiah]

Thats fine. People can work and pay there bills and give a donation that pays board members, pastors, and more rent, or, they can meet with fellow believers at each others homes, who all work and pay there bills, and can give directly to charity.

Yes, and as I said, "A person who prefers one type should not condemn those who prefer another type." Not even in thinly veiled ways.

 

[jasonc]

Sure, why not?

So let's make it harder fir then to help the poor.I mention that since the hospital closest to me isn't a church run one but a not for profit meaning the costs go up.any business collects bur doesn't pay taxes. Ie sales taxes.they buy products tax free .as soon as it's sold a tax is collected.

Thus why I said that.the said hospital here is looking at bankruptcy

 

[stovebolts]

Regardless of what people think about church organizations, they do provide things that Christians need.
Fellowship
Bible Study
Ministries to serve God
Opportunities to share the gifts God has given to you with others

We can't just dwell on the negative and then throw the whole system away.
The best thing to do is get involved and quietly try to serve God without causing trouble.
Stop looking at others
Look at what you are doing to please God.
Someone out there needs a word from each one of us.
Will they ever hear it?

We have lost our way. Church in America is becoming a club that we want everyone to join that offers many programs for its members, and very few if your not a member. Go look at a church budget... Most of the funds goes to itself. Little is benevolence.

We should focus on being the people God wants us to be and not just telling people what we think they need to believe

 

[stovebolts]

So let's make it harder fir then to help the poor.I mention that since the hospital closest to me isn't a church run one but a not for profit meaning the costs go up.any business collects bur doesn't pay taxes. Ie sales taxes.they buy products tax free .as soon as it's sold a tax is collected.

Thus why I said that.the said hospital here is looking at bankruptcy

That sucks. Taxes isn't the cause.... Hate to break that to you.

 

[Corn Pop]

Yes, and as I said, "A person who prefers one type should not condemn those who prefer another type." Not even in thinly veiled ways.

Im not condemning, I just know scripture and it says if people are willing to give, give to those in need, the poor and the needy. A person who decides to establish a second meeting house for all believers when they all already live inside a house is not a need, its a want.