Technicalities

[KevinK]

OK, you know what makes me crazy (we'll just shoot past the bad assumption that anyone would care)? People who reject an entire spiritual belief system based on a technical inconsistency. For example, I've heard more than once someone say something like, "There couldn't be a Hell. How could a place be full of fire and still be dark?" Well, you know what, I don't have any idea how fire can be dark. Or maybe I do, but what difference does it make? Is this any reason for rejecting the entire Biblical cosmology, or the concept of divine justice? Yet people say this or things like it, and in my opinion gamble away any chance for their own precious salvation. The weight of truth pulls down to your heart and soul, yet some people insist on being stuck inside their own head.

 

[JohnDB]

Chemical fires don't necessarily give off photons (light) the way oxidizing of combustible materials do.
But they also get really hot.
Ever used "hot hands"?
Prime example of heat from a chemical reaction that doesn't illuminate.

This is only ONE example... There are plenty more. Bleach and ammonia will get hot, (gas will kill you too) there are plenty more.

 

[KevinK]

Chemical fires don't necessarily give off photons (light) the way oxidizing of combustible materials do.
But they also get really hot.
Ever used "hot hands"?
Prime example of heat from a chemical reaction that doesn't illuminate.

This is only ONE example... There are plenty more. Bleach and ammonia will get hot, (gas will kill you too) there are plenty more.

Yes, absolutely right on all those answers, but the larger point is that it doesn't matter whether there are "dark fires" in nature or not (if you want one more example, our own bodies burn carbohydrate fuel without producing light). The point is disposition of your soul based on scientific or technical consistency. How many people begin their walk of damnation with a few simple words such as, "There couldn't be a Hell because....", or "There couldn't be an afterlife because....", or "There couldn't be a God because...."?

 

[JohnDB]

Yes, absolutely right on all those answers, but the larger point is that it doesn't matter whether there are "dark fires" in nature or not (if you want one more example, our own bodies burn carbohydrate fuel without producing light). The point is disposition of your soul based on scientific or technical consistency. How many people begin their walk of damnation with a few simple words such as, "There couldn't be a Hell because....", or "There couldn't be an afterlife because....", or "There couldn't be a God because...."?

People do all kinds of dumb things and think dumb things... I know intimately well how dumb people get.

 

[Edward]

OK, you know what makes me crazy (we'll just shoot past the bad assumption that anyone would care)? People who reject an entire spiritual belief system based on a technical inconsistency. For example, I've heard more than once someone say something like, "There couldn't be a Hell. How could a place be full of fire and still be dark?" Well, you know what, I don't have any idea how fire can be dark. Or maybe I do, but what difference does it make? Is this any reason for rejecting the entire Biblical cosmology, or the concept of divine justice? Yet people say this or things like it, and in my opinion gamble away any chance for their own precious salvation. The weight of truth pulls down to your heart and soul, yet some people insist on being stuck inside their own head.

Yep, some stuff seems non-sensical and yet, must be true. We just don't get it.

One of them that made me do a double take is Psalm 18:11...

God is light...and hides in the darkness...huh??
2

 

[MSchultz]

I have found in the past that unbelievers mock Christianity and its beliefs as they cannot justify it; if something does not make sense or cannot be logically explained, it is ruled out as not feasible.
I am not categorising all unbelievers as judgemental as I too was an unbeliever (I am still exploring this precept). I think that some unbelievers has a distorted vision of what the beliefs of Christianity are; I can state with certainty that some lack compassion.

 

[JohnDB]

Yep, some stuff seems non-sensical and yet, must be true. We just don't get it.

One of them that made me do a double take is Psalm 18:11...

God is light...and hides in the darkness...huh??
2

It's called by a special name....
One of my favorite things....

PARADOX.

Two things that can't be true but are.

Physical laws...two people/things can't occupy the same space at the same time but I've got Christ in me.

And the list is long of paradox in the Bible.

 

[Wrg1405]

If you know 2+2 = 4 then you have an understanding of maths. If you don't have an understanding of maths then you won't know that sum, it could just as equally add up to 5.

If someone does not understand God, his nature, his being then they will always come to the wrong answer. This is where we to try and help teaching them maths as such. It is God who reveals himself and not us, we are vessels and we truly need his wisdom and an understanding of him ourselves to teach others. Of course there are people who just don't want to know God full stop and do not want to learn.

However we have no idea at what point if at all that God will water the seeds that have been sown, when he reveals himself and that person says "Ah now I get it" they then know that 2+2 = 4 and hopefully they go onto harder sums.

 

[for_his_glory]

The deeper things of God are mysteries to those who lack the knowledge and refuse to dig into the deeper things. The carnal mind is a hostile enemy of God and can never perceive those things of God. Romans 8:7. God only reveals those things He wants us to learn and no one can go any higher than that when it comes to understanding.

1John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

 

[OzSpen]

OK, you know what makes me crazy (we'll just shoot past the bad assumption that anyone would care)? People who reject an entire spiritual belief system based on a technical inconsistency. For example, I've heard more than once someone say something like, "There couldn't be a Hell. How could a place be full of fire and still be dark?" Well, you know what, I don't have any idea how fire can be dark. Or maybe I do, but what difference does it make? Is this any reason for rejecting the entire Biblical cosmology, or the concept of divine justice? Yet people say this or things like it, and in my opinion gamble away any chance for their own precious salvation. The weight of truth pulls down to your heart and soul, yet some people insist on being stuck inside their own head.

Kevin,

I think you've underestimated the seriousness of not answering objections that people have to Bible issues.

I consider part of the problem is that Christians have tried to convince others of a literal fire in hell. I've attempted to address this issue in, Is there literal fire in hell?

When people see an apparent inconsistency in the Bible, they want it discussed at least to try to arrive at a reasonable resolution. I think that's a fair response.

Oz

 

[smaller]

OK, you know what makes me crazy (we'll just shoot past the bad assumption that anyone would care)? People who reject an entire spiritual belief system based on a technical inconsistency. For example, I've heard more than once someone say something like, "There couldn't be a Hell. How could a place be full of fire and still be dark?" Well, you know what, I don't have any idea how fire can be dark. Or maybe I do, but what difference does it make? Is this any reason for rejecting the entire Biblical cosmology, or the concept of divine justice? Yet people say this or things like it, and in my opinion gamble away any chance for their own precious salvation. The weight of truth pulls down to your heart and soul, yet some people insist on being stuck inside their own head.

I usually respond to that form of "resistance" with this:

If the devil and his messengers end up in hell, why would that bother anyone?

 

[Mike S]

Kevin,

I think you've underestimated the seriousness of not answering objections that people have to Bible issues.

I consider part of the problem is that Christians have tried to convince others of a literal fire in hell. I've attempted to address this issue in, Is there literal fire in hell?

When people see an apparent inconsistency in the Bible, they want it discussed at least to try to arrive at a reasonable resolution. I think that's a fair response.

Oz

I think trying to present an entirely literal interpretation of the Bible creates a whole host of problems for Christians who are called to explain their faith. There are too many inconsistencies, beginning right in Genesis with two different creation stories.

 

[JohnDB]

Nillihism is not uncommon amongst believers.
(Those who believe in God but not Hell or what we commonly think about Satan)

And those believers amongst us who simply subscribe as a matter of taking out an "eternal fire insurance policy" tend to be the weakest believers there are.

 

[Edward]

I think trying to present an entirely literal interpretation of the Bible creates a whole host of problems for Christians who are called to explain their faith. There are too many inconsistencies, beginning right in Genesis with two different creation stories.

You're right on the money with that one, Brother. I think though, that...we were created as spirit beings and are to live for (as) the spirit...

But we don't know how. They've suppressed the teachings and knowledge and lied to us from birth. So of course we can't comprehend these things...

Truth is stranger than fiction, (but to what extent?). We do know that His word is true and that we do...have access to it if we dig and seek hard enough. Usually, when we do glean a nugget of truth, it's viciously attacked and denounced.

I think that when all's said and done that the real truth will blow people's minds how wrong we were. It's in this light that I suspect that a lot of the allegories are not really allegories but may be literal. That's not to say that the allegories aren't true either (!) But that real spiritual truths are probably both allegories and literal...?

Such is the genius of our GOD...and the ineptness of the flesh. His thoughts are so far above ours, that, no wonder we're supposed to become as little children and enroll in (remedial, lol) Spiritual kindergarten.

I try not to put God in a box, or limit Him to the comprehension level of the flesh. What if...what if, it was literal...???

The strange thing (to me) is, when I read the Word, and try to keep an open mind to consider the possibility of what if what I'm reading is literal...that it seems to explain many other scriptures and bring plausibility to it all.

 

[Malachi]

The weight of truth pulls down to your heart and soul, yet some people insist on being stuck inside their own head.

Humanistic thinking is a tremendous hindrance, both for the lost and the saved. Many Christians do not abandon their humanistic way of looking at things of the Spirit and things of God. Bible Christianity is supernatural through and through, so either we think as God does, or put ourselves in jeopardy.

 

[Christ_empowered]

I think Malachi and for_his_glory gave good answers. We're all born turned away from God, doomed from day 1, barring Divine Intervention. As others have pointed out, no human being can save another human being in this sense. All any believer can do is plant seeds, maybe provide some Christ-like compassion and understanding, pray and hope the God will see fit to change the unbeliever's heart enough so he can begin to accept the Truth.

Unbelievers live in spiritual deadness and darkness. The darkness doesn't like the light. From my limited experience, it seems that those who are stuck in the darkness will cling to anything they can...to stay in darkness. Well-educated people will pull out intellectual reasons, New Age-y people will pull out some crystals and tarot cards...everybody has a way to stay in darkness, until and unless God does a work in their heart to open them up to The Truth.

 

[OzSpen]

I think trying to present an entirely literal interpretation of the Bible creates a whole host of problems for Christians who are called to explain their faith. There are too many inconsistencies, beginning right in Genesis with two different creation stories.

Mike,

Trying to use a literal interpretation for the Bible creates no more problems than using a literal interpretation on this forum.

Some misunderstanding comes with a misguided perspective on the meaning of literal interpretation. I have attempted to address this in my article, What is the meaning of the literal interpretation of the Bible?

The Merriam-Webster dictionary (online, n d. s v literal) gives this simple definition of 'literal':

• 
  : involving the ordinary or usual meaning of a word
  
  
• : giving the meaning of each individual word
  
  
• : completely true and accurate : not exaggerated

Too often, this is not the meaning understood by 'literal' as giving the ordinary or usual meaning of a word. When we read posts on this forum or articles in the local newspaper or the Bible, we use a literal interpretation. This means that symbolic language, figures of speech, and other terms are accepted as critical to a literal interpretation. Misunderstandings of the meaning of literal interpretation create problems.

When Jesus said, 'I am the door', we use literal interpretation to understand that Jesus is not a physical door but it is a metaphor indicating that he is the entrance into something. Understanding figures of speech is included in literal interpretation.

All of us have to engage in literal interpretation (including the first 2 chapters of Genesis) to understand anything. The problem comes with hermeneutics in general and not with literal interpretation. My experience in over 50 years as a Christian is that the meaning of literal interpretation is misrepresented.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

I usually respond to that form of "resistance" with this:

If the devil and his messengers end up in hell, why would that bother anyone?

That doesn't deal with the issue that Kevin raised. We need to engage people in their objections and expose what they are doing, instead of casting their objections aside.

Our apologetics need to be based on the hope that we have and to engage in conversation with gentleness and respect. We can engage with the person with objections without being objectionable (1 Peter 3:15 ESV).

I'm bothered by anyone ending in hell because this is what God has stated: 'The Lord isn't really being slow about his promise, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent' (2 Peter 3:9 NLT).

Oz

 

[smaller]

That doesn't deal with the issue that Kevin raised. We need to engage people in their objections and expose what they are doing, instead of casting their objections aside.

The unsaved only need to hear that Jesus died for them, rose from the dead, loves them and saves any person that calls upon him. That's as much as they need to know.

It's entirely pointless to discuss theology with an unbeliever.

 

[Christ_empowered]

I dunno man...Paul spent an awful lot of time discussing Christ w/ unbelievers. There's the whole field of Christian apologetics to spread The Good News to a dark and dying world...

But, for most of us (me included), you may have a point. I've found that when I just mention my (basic, traditional, Protestant) beliefs, some of my acquaintances get flustered. I don't think an indepth discussion would do much good in that situation.