Bible Study That which is eternal, no longer given forgiveness?

[Orion]

My last topic brings up a whole other issue of why this same soul (damned because of non-forgiveness of sins), just because it is no longer traveling within it's former earthly vessel, which is just a collection of earthly minerals and liquids, no longer is listened to by God, should that soul come to a sincere desire to be with Jesus? Why is a soul ONLY a "whosoever" when traveling in a vessel of dust?

 

[stranger]

My last topic brings up a whole other issue of why this same soul (damned because of non-forgiveness of sins), just because it is no longer traveling within it's former earthly vessel, which is just a collection of earthly minerals and liquids, no longer is listened to by God, should that soul come to a sincere desire to be with Jesus? Why is a soul ONLY a "whosoever" when traveling in a vessel of dust?

Hi Orion,

It is appointed for man once to die and after that comes the judgement. Heb. 9:27.

What would bring about such a hypothethical change as you describe?

 

[protos]

My last topic brings up a whole other issue of why this same soul (damned because of non-forgiveness of sins), just because it is no longer traveling within it's former earthly vessel, which is just a collection of earthly minerals and liquids, no longer is listened to by God, should that soul come to a sincere desire to be with Jesus? Why is a soul ONLY a "whosoever" when traveling in a vessel of dust?

This is because of the dual nature of people. We have flesh and a spirit. When a person's flesh dies in its sins, its spirit which is until then untainted, becomes sinful, and there is no way to atone for its sins. This is why Satan and the other fallen angels can't be saved.

 

[Orion]

This is because of the dual nature of people. We have flesh and a spirit. When a person's flesh dies in its sins, its spirit which is until then untainted, becomes sinful, and there is no way to atone for its sins. This is why Satan and the other fallen angels can't be saved.

Where is it said that when this earthy vessel dies that it somehow taints something that is not of this earth? Where is that verse?

You see, it really doesn't make sense to me. A spirit is non-coporeal thus is not effected by that which IS coporeal. Our sins are a product of our nature. Our brain gets delight out of many things that are labelled as sin. The brain may even develope an addiction to this sin. However, I don't see how those chemical reactions would have any bearing on a spirit! :-?

 

[protos]

You're assuming that the brain is what makes your decisions and not the spirit. Untestable as it may be, if it weren't your spirit that made those decisions nobody would be sent to Hell as you suggest. Your spirit makes the decision to commit a sin, which is a carnal sin, unless it is the Unforgivable Sin, which is unbelief, which is the only sin that's spiritual. The only sins that God can forgive with Christ's atonement are of the flesh, so if you die in those sins you commit the Unforgivable Sin because you remain imperfect in God's sight, if that makes sense.

 

[Orion]

Did you just contradict your self in your two last posts? You stated that "When a person's flesh dies in its sins, its spirit which is until then untainted, becomes sinful...". . . . and now you just gave the impession that it is our spirit which sins. :-?

 

[protos]

I think I know what you're saying. It appears that I was wrong regarding the spirit making the choices as my views may have been tainted by somewhat a Platonic view, so it is the body that makes the choices. Nevertheless, our nature is both spiritual and physical, so when we are judged, our spiritual will be separated from God if we go to Hell.

Edit: The above brings two questions, one of which is more of a discomfort:
1) Does it mean that the naturalistic view of man is true regarding free will being in the brain?
2) Would this mean that we won't have free will in Heaven, since if our bodies won't work (due to the first death), how would our brain make decisions? (is this possibly an answer as to why we won't sin in Heaven?)

It is also possible that God has translated our spirit in our earthly bodies, just like Moses and Elijah were on the mount (Matthew 17:1-3), so that this translation makes the free will choices that our spirit would, but does not taint the perfect spirit. This is pure speculation on my part, and thank you for bringing the point across because I didn't see it

 

[Orion]

This is a side step to this topic, but your post makes me comment.

I don't believe that we will have flesh and bone bodies at that time. Flesh, blood, brains, bones, nervous systems, . . . etc . . only make sense when they are needed. In Heaven, these things won't be needed as it is the spirit which is eternal. I know that I wouldn't want to be bound to a body for all eternity.

I know that the Bible says that Jesus had a body, after the ressurection. However, I believe that it was for their sake (disciples and others). I don't believe that God needs a body or could even be contained in one. I don't believe that God sits on a literal throne with Jesus sitting on God's right hand. These are earthly imagery in attempts to comprehend that which may be incomprehensible to those on this plain of existance.

 

[guibox]

And yet, what we are lacking throughout this little discourse is conclusive proof and bible texts both linguistically and textually that show the differences between body and spirit and supposed transferable sin.

Orion, the Bible makes it clear that the body is necessary for not only resurrection but eternal life. This is why the dualistic stance cannot be supported by the Bible. The Bible makes it clear that just as Christ died and rose again in a spiritual body, so we too will do the same. (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15; 1 Corinthians 15)

You can speculate all you want on the nature of the spirit but the fact that the Bible is completely silent on this and yet makes it plain in other places that the whole man dies and resurrects should not be ignored for speculation that carries one further and further away from the Bible and more into Greek and Gnostic philosophy.

 

[Orion]

So, the body that has turned to dust long ago will be rejuvenated. That not only makes no sense, . . . it serves no purpose. These bodies need constant up keep. They need food and water to survive, are required to excrete urine and have bowl movements after ingestion, are susceptible to being easily damaged, etc. What purpose would it serve to place us in such imperfect vessels as these for all eternity?

Isn't there a verse that says that "we will be like the angels in Heaven"? Do THEY have physical bodies of flesh, blood, and bone?

 

[jgredline]

Orion
Thank God you did not buy into Guibox nonsense and false teaching.
I will be back shortly to expound on this...

 

[guibox]

So, the body that has turned to dust long ago will be rejuvenated. That not only makes no sense, . . . it serves no purpose. These bodies need constant up keep. They need food and water to survive, are required to excrete urine and have bowl movements after ingestion, are susceptible to being easily damaged, etc. What purpose would it serve to place us in such imperfect vessels as these for all eternity?

Isn't there a verse that says that "we will be like the angels in Heaven"? Do THEY have physical bodies of flesh, blood, and bone?

The Bible is quite clear. In the same breath it says that 'flsh and blood will not inhereit the kingdom of God' and then tells about the spiritual body that we receive at the resurrection. This is how we enter heaven...not as a disembodied 'spirit' (Still waiting for this bible verse).

1 Corinthians 15:35-44
1 Corinthians 15:51-55

Couple this with 2 Corinthians 5:1-8 and 21 Thessalonians 4:13-17 and we see that I am correct and nothing jg or anybody else in all their pages and pages of Greek philogophical rambling has disproved it.

It's hard to let go of long cherished beliefs despite the fact that there is no biblical evidence for them but mere suppositions and assumptions. It is also the attitude of 'I'm right and you are wrong' that stops us from growing, even though there is overwhelming evidence that contradicts your position.

 

[Orion]

I don't see anywhere in those verses that say that our Heavenly existance will be one with flesh, blood, and bone. :-?

 

[guibox]

But it does say we will have spiritual bodies.

Nowhere in the scriptures do we see our existence in heaven as disembodied souls that go there when we die. Ther eis no support for it. We are given eternal bodies and eternal life ONLY at the resurrection.

Nowehere has jg or others disputed this by the scriptures alone.

 

[Solo]

But it does say we will have spiritual bodies.

Nowhere in the scriptures do we see our existence in heaven as disembodied souls that go there when we die. Ther eis no support for it. We are given eternal bodies and eternal life ONLY at the resurrection.

Nowehere has jg or others disputed this by the scriptures alone.

In your theology will Moses be resurrected when Jesus returns?

Also according to the book of Revelation your statement, "Nowhere in the scriptures do we see our existence in heaven as disembodied souls that go there when we die" is a lie.

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Revelation 6:9-11

 

[jgredline]

Solo
You beat me to the punch... :smt062 on that one...... :-D

 

[Solo]

Solo
You beat me to the punch... :smt062 on that one...... :-D

Not everyone has been duped by the false teachings of the Seventh-day Adventist bunch, but a few have. :wink:

 

[guibox]

:roll:

Please show me that these 'souls'

1) Is meant to be taken literally in an apocalyptic book

2) That the word 'soul' here means a 'disembodied essence'


You miss the obvious symbolism of martyrdom referring to the sacrificial system of the Old Testament in 1)

You are reading Greek dualism where there is no intention for it, nor can you support it by the term 'pneuma' which is the equivalent of 'nephesh' which does not mean a 'disembodied soul'

You are reading that which the bible doesn't say. This is called eisigesis and the two of you are masters at it when it comes to this.

But go ahead and slap your high fives if it makes you feel better. It doesn't make you any righter that's for sure.

 

[Orion]

But, guibox, . . . . you are hitting on something that is SO open to interpretation by countess number of people, over thousands of years, and various denominations. That being, what one person sees as "symbolism" is another one's "literalism". You say that those souls, mentioned in Revelation, are symbolic. Your "flesh, blood, and bone" bodies could very well be symbolic as well.

Again, . . .do angels have bodies of flesh, blood, and bone? Does God? If you can only answer "no" on that, then ask yourself WHY would WE need to have them? Bodies of flesh, blood, and bone will always be imperfect.

 

[jgredline]

Guibox

By your interpretation, you are also saying that the ''anti Christ'' is symbolic...
I suppose you also think ''Jesus second coming'' is symbolic as well :-?

I suppose the 7 churches mentioned in Revelation were not real either... :o

By the way, you do know that the NT was written in Greek right?