Bible Study That which is eternal, no longer given forgiveness?

[guibox]

The reason why this passage is symbolic is the same reason why the 4 horsemen are symbolic.

1) The message lies in what it represents and symbolism IS present.

The 'altar' 'being under the altar', 'crying out for vengeance'...if the reason was to prove that disembodied souls of martyrs are in heaven, the Bible could have portrayed them floating on clouds, playing harps and eating fried chicken. The reference to these things refers back to the concept of 'souls' being 'nephesh' and the 'nephesh' the 'life' is in the blood. In the OT service, the blood of sacrificed animals was poured under the altar. The 'crying out of the psuche' is a reference to Abel's 'blood' (again the life, the nephesh) metaphorically crying out is metaphorical for vengeance.

The parallel to Revelation is unmistakable. If Revelation is literal, then Abel's blood literally cried out from the ground.

Take your premise to its illogical and irrational conclusion instead of picking and choosing the interpretation that fits your notion the best.

If we must take this literally, we must conclude that:
a) only those who are martyred get to go to heaven
b) that their final resting place for eternity is crammed under an altar (how do disembodied souls all go under a physical altar?) and their purpose is to cry out to God for vengeance.

2) There is not one iota of support for this concept elsewhere in the scriptures for it to be taken literally. Where is the clear and frequent evidence of this concept? Where? Christ, Paul, Peter, James and John had ample enough time and opportunity to clearly lay this out like they did with grace, law and salvation. We see that the resurrection to life is clearly and frequently laid out.

Where is the evidence that should be there for such an important notion of eternal life at our physical death and that our loved ones are enjoying heaven right now? Paul talked about heaven and resurrection all the time? Why in the same breath did he not espouse on this concept?

 

[Solo]

The reason why this passage is symbolic is the same reason why the 4 horsemen are symbolic.

1) The message lies in what it represents and symbolism IS present.

The 'altar' 'being under the altar', 'crying out for vengeance'...if the reason was to prove that disembodied souls of martyrs are in heaven, the Bible could have portrayed them floating on clouds, playing harps and eating fried chicken. The reference to these things refers back to the concept of 'souls' being 'nephesh' and the 'nephesh' the 'life' is in the blood. In the OT service, the blood of sacrificed animals was poured under the altar. The 'crying out of the psuche' is a reference to Abel's 'blood' (again the life, the nephesh) metaphorically crying out is metaphorical for vengeance.

The parallel to Revelation is unmistakable. If Revelation is literal, then Abel's blood literally cried out from the ground.

Take your premise to its illogical and irrational conclusion instead of picking and choosing the interpretation that fits your notion the best.

If we must take this literally, we must conclude that:
a) only those who are martyred get to go to heaven
b) that their final resting place for eternity is crammed under an altar (how do disembodied souls all go under a physical altar?) and their purpose is to cry out to God for vengeance.

2) There is not one iota of support for this concept elsewhere in the scriptures for it to be taken literally. Where is the clear and frequent evidence of this concept? Where? Christ, Paul, Peter, James and John had ample enough time and opportunity to clearly lay this out like they did with grace, law and salvation. We see that the resurrection to life is clearly and frequently laid out.

Where is the evidence that should be there for such an important notion of eternal life at our physical death and that our loved ones are enjoying heaven right now? Paul talked about heaven and resurrection all the time? Why in the same breath did he not espouse on this concept?

So you are saying that Moses did not appear to Peter, James, and John the brother of Jesus on the mount where Jesus was transfigured prior to His crucifixion? Moses had not been resurrected at this point since Jesus had not been crucified as yet.

1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, 2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. 3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. Matthew 17:1-3

 

[Solo]

So you are saying that Moses did not appear to Peter, James, and John the brother of Jesus on the mount where Jesus was transfigured prior to His crucifixion? Moses had not been resurrected at this point since Jesus had not been crucified as yet.

1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, 2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. 3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. Matthew 17:1-3


Oh wait, I know, Scripture is not literal since it casts a negative light on your false teachings! :roll:

 

[guibox]

This has already been addressed and with you it wouldn't make a hill beans bit of difference no matter what. You will believe whatever you want regardless of the contradictions and errors. It is not a matter of 'what does the word say' it is 'what do I want it to say and how can I make it fit what I believe'

Solo, you study the bible eisigetically and you seem to be proud (or too stubborn) of that fact. Wasting words with you isn't worth my time anymore.

Please, oh please Forum Powers That Be...look down with mercy upon thy subject here and grant him an exception to the rule that one cannot put moderators on 'Ignore' as Solo so desperately wants to be on my list.

Pretty please...?

 

[Solo]

This has already been addressed ....

You have not addressed the fact that Moses appeared to Peter, James, and John the brother of Jesus prior to Jesus' resurrection. Are you telling another lie, guibox?

I will post the question again so that you can make sure to address it for the folks on the forum.

So you are saying that Moses did not appear to Peter, James, and John the brother of Jesus on the mount where Jesus was transfigured prior to His crucifixion? Moses had not been resurrected at this point since Jesus had not been crucified as yet.

1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, 2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. 3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. Matthew 17:1-3

 

[guibox]

For anybody here with an open mind enough to read this, I will respond to Solo's comment. It is not for Solo or jg as they have already made up their mind and only seem to want to ridicule and provoke...

Notice that out of ALL the OT saints that could have been on the Mount of Transfiguration, we have two that the Bible specifically points out elsewhere?

It could have been Abraham, Isaac, David, Jacob, Adam, Noah and a host of others.

However, we see that Elijah never saw death at all but was whisked off by a chariot in body. What about Moses? Didn't he die and was buried?

Yes he was which makes this comment in Jude 9 so significant.

Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil, he disputed over the body of Moses...

Wow...a coincidence? Out of all the bodies of the prophets and patriarchs, it just so happens to be the body of Moses. Out of all the prophets and patriarchs on the Mount, it happens to be the same Moses.

Even though he was not allowed in the land of Canaan, we see that Moses was not left here on this earth but was specially resurrected.

Hence the reason why it is those two and not the aforementioned that we see with Christ. It could not have been any other for even David didn't go to heaven (Acts 2:29-32) and Daniel expected to be resurrected at the end of time (Daniel 12:1-2)

 

[Solo]

Now for the readers on the forum to witness the twisting of Scripture in order to appease the personal interpretation of a false teacher and how the Scriptures do not allow unsound doctrines to stand when the whole council of God is taken into consideration.

Moses appeared on the mount with Elijah and Jesus whereby Jesus was transfigured. Moses could not have been resurrected as Jesus Christ had not yet been crucified or resurrected Himself. Elijah had not died but was instead translated as was Enoch. Neither Enoch nor Elijah tasted death so they have not been resurrected yet. Moses died physically and is in need of being resurrected prior to being physically alive again. Moses could not have been physically resurrected until after the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Notice that the Scriptures teach an order in the resurrection of man; first Jesus Christ with the first fruits, and then those that are in Christ Jesus at His coming:

• 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 1 Corinthians 15:20-23

There was no resurrection from the dead until after Jesus Christ was crucified, dead, and resurrected. Jesus Christ was the first fruits of the resurrection from the dead. Moses could not have been resurrected prior to the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Moses' soul was present with Jesus Christ at the mount when Jesus was transfigured in Matthew 17.

Ellen G. White teaches the lie of Moses' resurrection in her book, The Story of Redemption that Moses was resurrected:

• "Michael, or Christ, with the angels that buried Moses, came down from heaven, after he had remained in the grave a short time, and resurrected him and took him to heaven."

It is no wonder that guibox believes the lies that Ellen G. White, the false prophet, teaches, as the Seventh-day Adventists follow her unsound doctrines.

 

[jgredline]

For anybody here with an open mind enough to read this, I will respond to Solo's comment. It is not for Solo or jg as they have already made up their mind and only seem to want to ridicule and provoke...

Notice that out of ALL the OT saints that could have been on the Mount of Transfiguration, we have two that the Bible specifically points out elsewhere?

It could have been Abraham, Isaac, David, Jacob, Adam, Noah and a host of others.

However, we see that Elijah never saw death at all but was whisked off by a chariot in body. What about Moses? Didn't he die and was buried?

Yes he was which makes this comment in Jude 9 so significant.



Wow...a coincidence? Out of all the bodies of the prophets and patriarchs, it just so happens to be the body of Moses. Out of all the prophets and patriarchs on the Mount, it happens to be the same Moses.

Even though he was not allowed in the land of Canaan, we see that Moses was not left here on this earth but was specially resurrected.

Hence the reason why it is those two and not the aforementioned that we see with Christ. It could not have been any other for even David didn't go to heaven (Acts 2:29-32) and Daniel expected to be resurrected at the end of time (Daniel 12:1-2)

Guibox
Two things....It is easy to put Solo and Jg on ignore...This is how you do it...
''Go away''

Secondly, have you ever heard of Enoch?

Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken himâ€Â; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

So tell me something...When Moses was on the mount, was it his ''Soul / spirit'' or body there? Was he there physically or spiritually?

Please point me to the verse that speaks of Moses resurrection...I would love to study it....LOL

Now lets look at Jude 5-11....For the readers...Notice first, that we need to look at a few verses to capture the context...Unlike some others here...
I will focus mostly on verse 9 and lets see what Jude is telling us...

5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire

8 Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries. 9 Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!†10 But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves. 11 Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.

In verse 8 Jude goes back to the apostates within the churchin verses 5-7... Those who pollute their own bodies are like Sodom and Gomorrah...Those who reject authority are like the unbelieving Israelites who rejected the authority of both Moses and God....

In verse 9 and 10....Jude ''continues'' V. 9. According to ''Jewish tradition''and yes I know it is not scripture, but makes sense for this very Jewish epistle....The devil argued with the angel about the body, apparently claiming the right to dispose of it. But Michael, though powerful and authoritative, did not dare dispute with Satan, so he left the matter in God’s hands, saying, ''The Lord rebuke you!''...oK...so what do we see here for us as far as application...Simple...When we confront the forces of evil, ''we'' are no match for the devil or his demons..''BUT'' Through the Lord Jesus Christ, No problem......

Ok so lets continue..In those days very much like today the false teachers had no respect for anybody and in particular ''Angels''....These apostates were speaking directly against Michael the Arch Angel, when Michael Himself would not contend with Satan on his own...So in verse 10 Jude continues...He tells us that these false teachers spoke lies against things they did not know...

Jude thus ''Annihilated'' their Gnostic claim to superior knowledge....And their so called understanding and the polluting of their own bodies was, like the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah....

Wow, What a difference context means....
Time for a movie and some :

 

[jgredline]

Solo
I just finished reading your post and we were both working on them at roughly the same time.....Why am I not surprised that we were writing and thinking along similar lines.... 8-)

 

[Solo]

Solo
I just finished reading your post and we were both working on them at roughly the same time.....Why am I not surprised that we were writing and thinking along similar lines.... 8-)

jg,
I too am not surprised as the Holy Spirit is uniform in His interpretation, and His desire is that all would come to believe the Truth of God and become His children. There are many, many, many who are not born again, who believe that they are Christians, just as I was prior to submitting to the Lordship of Jesus Christ. It was not infant baptism that saved me even though I was baptized as an infant; it was not confirmation/catechism that saved me even though I was confirmed; it was not participation in communion/eucharist that saved me even though I participated in communion; it was not that I attended church that saved me even though I attended church; it was only that I had my eyes opened by the Holy Spirit to the Truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ whereupon I believed that I needed saved from my sin, and that Jesus Christ paid the price of my condemnation. Once I repented, believed, and followed Jesus Christ in believer's baptism, I was saved.
God bless you and yours,
Michael

 

[Guest]

I realize this is somewhat off-topic - after, I have come to realize that those who hold to false teachings, do so through the book of Revelation.

In discussions with someone else, there is this need to return to the book of Revelation.

I find it interestineg that the theology is based on a book that is highly debated and discussed as to it's meaning.

Not to mention that most of Jesus's teachings are for the here and now - how we are to live out our faith.

 

[Solo]

Perhaps this particular discussion forum should have been named, "Partial Bible Study" for those who like to take partial portions of the Bible for their own personal biased interpretation, and/or false teaching.

It is indeed amazing that there are those who believe that man can be resurrected from the dead before Jesus Christ was crucified and resurrected.

 

[Orion]

I'm less interested in those who died before the resurrection. What I'm more interested in is the very good possibility that any such mention of the bodies we currently have being resurrected is purely symbolic and that any such mention of it is only for the purposes of getting the reader to understand that "we will know each other in Heaven". However, to think that the dust of 2nd century Christians will somehow be rematerialized (when all that dust is . . . . is merely earthly elements/minerals minus the 80% water/liquids) into what it was and be that way for all eternity is about laughable. What if it was a child who died. Is their body a child for all eternity? Does it still grow to "adult size"? When does it stop, if it even DOES grow? What does the body of an extremely old saint look like? :-?

These are earthly vessels. They are part of the earth. They die and return to elements of the earth. I'd rather spend my eternity as a "disembodied spirit"!! I see nothing horrible about it.

 

[guibox]

Orion,

I'm not sure how you can say that our 'bodies' are symbolic when 1 Corinthians 15 makes it pretty clear that we will be resurrected with spiritual bodies. Notice also later on that Paul goes to great lengths to talk about the resurrection body.
(see vs 34-45)

The resurrection of Christ is directly linked with the resurrection of the dead (vs 12-26).

Notice Luke 24:39 when Christ appeared to the disciples after the resurrection.

Behold my nand and my feet that it is I myself. Handle me and see for a spiritu hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Again, I must point out the signficance of the fact that there is no proof that I exist i heaven as a disembodied spirit with no body when the Bible makes it clear that when we go to heaven, it will be in a spiritual body and not as a disembodied spirit. We receive eternal life at the resurrection.

2 Corinthians 5:1-8
1 Corinthians 15:12-23; 51-55
2 Timothy 4:6-8

 

[Orion]

Who's to say that this spiritual body will even be anything like what we are caged in right now? It is certain that we are incapable of walking through walls, being transported in an instant, things like that. Our bodies, as we have now, would not stand such stresses. I think you may put too much emphasis on "body" and less on "spiritual". If angels can be seen by us as looking LIKE they have a body similar to ours, that doesn't mean that they do. It is all a matter of image. If we are to be like the angels in Heaven, then we may LOOK similar to our form here, but flesh, blood, and bone, . . . . . . I don't see that happening.

 

[stranger]

Who's to say that this spiritual body will even be anything like what we are caged in right now? It is certain that we are incapable of walking through walls, being transported in an instant, things like that. Our bodies, as we have now, would not stand such stresses. I think you may put too much emphasis on "body" and less on "spiritual". If angels can be seen by us as looking LIKE they have a body similar to ours, that doesn't mean that they do. It is all a matter of image. If we are to be like the angels in Heaven, then we may LOOK similar to our form here, but flesh, blood, and bone, . . . . . . I don't see that happening.

Hi Orion,

The apostles who saw and met the resurrected Christ offer their testimony and as pointed out, Paul developes the theology a little. So the answer to your question "Who's to say. . . ." is the apostles and their God given authority to bear witness. I think most of the perceived limitations of the present body won't be found in the resurrection body. Besides, if there is to a wedding feast at the end of the age - why would God have it prepared if we could not partake of it?

It is a matter of image since God created man in His own image after His own likeness.

 

[stranger]

Is this tread destined to end up in the 'Christian and other religions' part of the forum. ie the eastern idea that we will all merge into and become god?

 

[Orion]

Hi Orion,

The apostles who saw and met the resurrected Christ offer their testimony and as pointed out, Paul developes the theology a little. So the answer to your question "Who's to say. . . ." is the apostles and their God given authority to bear witness. I think most of the perceived limitations of the present body won't be found in the resurrection body. Besides, if there is to a wedding feast at the end of the age - why would God have it prepared if we could not partake of it?

It is a matter of image since God created man in His own image after His own likeness.

What's the purpose of us having this type of body, yet not have to eat and expel matter? These bodies are made for THIS existence. It makes no sense for them to have flesh, blood, and bone and not need constant nourishment and expelling of waste material.

What sort of animals will be killed for this "wedding feast"? Where will the materials ingested go after they are in this fictitious body you speak of? Does all that bio-matter magically disappear? :-?

These are all examples of speaking figuratively. The "wedding feast" is less of an actual banquet and more of what that sort of banquet MEANT in the times and culture of when the manuscripts were written.

As for the resurrected Jesus, if Jesus wanted them to know it was him, I believe that he had the ability to make himself corporeal for them, for their matter of perspective, with the symbolic wounds present for even Thomas to see. I don't believe that Jesus has a body with the wounds there for all eternity.

As for you other post, . . . . just because our spirits will have a non-bodily form doesn't mean we will automatically become a god. :-?

 

[guibox]

Orion, you are probably correct in saying that the 'wedding feast' is figurative. However, do not confuse such things with the resurrection body.

1 Corinthians 15 makes it plain throughout that not only do we resurrect with a 'body' that 'puts on' immortality, but it directly links this body with the experience of Christ. (vs 12-23)

Look at Philippians 3:21:

Who shall change our vile body that it may be fashioned like unot His glorious body

We know that Jesus was raised and told His disciples 'A spirit hath not flesh and blood like I do. Touch and see'

I'm not sure how much more plainer the scriptures can be, Orion.

Whereas there is no support for a disembodied soul hanging out on a cloud at our physical death, there are ample enough scriptures to prove that immortality (eternal life) is realized only in a spiritual resurrection body.

 

[Orion]

I still feel that Jesus was trying to make them see that it was him, and gave them the ability to see what they needed to see.

I just have a problem with this type of body being a part of an afterlife. Do we have to eat to live, expel waste, . . . . will we still have our male or female sex organs? What stays and what goes, and if nothing goes, what's the point of them?

Again, if a baby dies at birth, what will that spirit live for eternity in, the body of a toddler? Does it grow to adulthood? Does it stop growing at some point? Does an old man who dies go back to some point in his life when he was younger? How is this determined?

Do the angels have flesh and blood bodies, those who we are supposed to be like?

It's easy to take some scriptures, assume that they mean what you want them to mean, . . . . . . but not quite as easy when you are faced with the reality of it. These questions aren't all encompassing. I'm sure there are many other facets that could raise questions as well.