mattyry123
Member
The “I AM†debate final put to rest.
(*** if you would like to skip all the rambling and find out where Jesus tells us that he IS NOT the “I AM†who spoke to Moses from the bush, then head down to the Mark 12 scripture in bold***)
Before I go on I would like to make myself clear. In no way am I suggesting that what I write here should be how things should be BUT, God said in Luke 9v35 "This is my Son, my Chosen; listen to him!" So if we are to listen to Jesus, as God commanded, than surely Jesus is capable of identifying himself
The following is some of my thoughts that seem to conflict with the stance that "Jesus is the God of the OT"
The first commandment in Ex 20. "You shall have no other God besides me." When Jesus was in his earthly form it was witnessed that he kept all the commandments and most importantly he was sinless. This fact is what Christianity is based on. How did Jesus keep this commandment? Did Jesus have to worship himself? Did he tell his disciples to worship him? I have not found anywhere that Jesus tells anyone to worship him. Rather Jesus does gives all glory to the Father in (Jn 17v3&4) Not only did Jesus give God the Father the glory in verse 4, but calls the Father the "only true God". Later on Jesus says that the Father is His God Jn 20 v 17. "I am ascending to my Father and to your Father, to my God and to your God". Going back to the first commandment, if he was the God of the OT, then he is the God of Israel who the people worshiped. If this is the case. Who is God the Father? Is God the Father another God? Hence if Jesus was the God of the OT, then His Father is another God? If so, Jesus is worshiping a different God and breaking the first commandment. It just doesn’t make sense. The only way I can see it making sense is if God the Father is the God of the OT. Then Jesus does not break the Law. ???
The writer of Hebrews explains how the God of the OT made a promise to Abraham (Hebrews 6 v 13) “Since he had no-one greater to swear by, he swore by himself" (Genesis 22 v 16) Now if the God of the OT is the pre existent Jesus, he would have someone or something greater to swear by! (His Father) Jesus shows (in Jn ch 14v28) that this was not him by declaring "For the Father is greater then I" So only one being could of made this promise. The writer of Hebrews (Ch 6 & 7) mentions that the way to God was not open (throughout OT times) and that it was the curtain that was a symbolic wall. This curtain stopped mans access to God. The writer also mentions that Jesus (as a fore runner) broke down this wall and instead of the earthly High Priest, (who only went in once a year with his blood offering) Jesus has gone has gone and offered a more worthy/perfect sacrifice. Only through his blood we all have access to the Father, not just once a year, but 24/7. This also seems to suggest that God the Father is the God who is worshiped in OT times. Do you see this in theses scriptures?
When Jesus meets the woman at the well (Jn 4v5-26) Jesus identifies himself as the "Messiah" and his "Father" as the God who was worshipped on the mountain and Jerusalem. Jesus himself links the Father as the God of the OT who was worshiped.
Satan also agrees that Jesus is the Christ and the Father is the God of the OT, (Mt 4v 1-11) when he tries 3 times to get Jesus to transgress. But Jesus being the perfect example for us used the words of God and silenced Satan. Jesus refuses to worship Satan and abandon God because he had only one God to listen to (Deut 8v3), one God to tempt (Deut 6v16) and one God to worship (Deut 6v13) His God, who is the Father. Thus keeping within the Law.
It's hard not to believe that the 2 temples were not built for the God of the OT. It was built for the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob or the God of our fathers. Jesus tells us that this was built for his Father saying in Jn Ch 6v7"You shall not make my Father’s house a house of trade"
All the above scriptures point to the God of the OT being God the father?
Witnesses? God the Father was the ultimate witness when he said (Mt 3 v17)" This is my beloved son, with whom I am well pleased." John the Baptist also witnessed that Jesus is the Son of God (Jn 1v34)
Paul’s address to the Romans. (Ch 1v1) He agrees that he was "Called, to be set apart for the gospel of God, which he promised through his prophet's" We later find out that this promise "the gospel concerning his son" is Jesus Christ.
Well it seems that all of the above gets thrown out when Jesus claims that he is actually the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob when he is quoted saying (Jn 8v58 ) "I AM" and this was the name God called himself in (Ex 3v14) when he was talking to Moses.
The "I AM" here in John 8v58, is two words in the Greek.
"Ego" = I, Me or My.
"Imee" = Am, It is I, Be, I, Was or Have been. It can also mean “to existâ€
From my understanding “I†= "The Subject" and “Am†= "The Verbâ€. The sentence is complete as it has a subject and verb. Similar to the phrase “Jesus wept†subject = Jesus and the verb = wept.
First, I find it hard to see that this is the name of God as Jesus uses again in Jn 6v36, & 8v24. Even worse a mortal man uses it after he receives his sight (Jn 9v9). In fact the phrase is used all through the NT. Jesus uses it again in Mark 6v50 which is translated “It is Iâ€, and the man who delivers & betrays him, Judas uses the phrase in Matt 26v25. Which is translated “It is Iâ€
Secondly Jesus was talking about Abraham in Jn 8, the phrase in Ex 3 is to Moses. I don’t see how the link is made when Jesus is talking about Abraham?
Thirdly, the phrase "I AM" seems to be presented in the wrong tenths. The Verb “AM" changes in English depending on the tenths. Present = Am, Past = Was and Future = Will be. If we are to look at Jesus’ statement "before Abraham was" seems to place whatever he is about to say in the past. The word "was" in Greek is translated from "Ginomai" or "come into being". “Was†is definitely past presence. So because this Verb is in pass tenths it should be “I wasâ€. Even if we take the word “come†and some will argue that it is a present tenths. Since the statement contains a present and past tenths it should be presented in Present Perfect tenths which = “I have been†Even if we replace “AM†with “Exist†it still places it in past tenths = I Existed..
Fourthly, In regards to “I am who I am†in Ex 3v14. I’ll quote what the Hebrew and Aramaic Dictionary say about the Hebrew word HAYAH. (Not the whole lot because it seems that this particular word can mean a lot, but I will quote the bits relevant to the topic. To get a true meaning of what it means I think you should look it up.)
Now I’m going skip a lot of examples because it would be a marathon to write it all down. Basically it present that Hayah is a Verb or an action word. Now down to the bit where is mentions Ex 3v14.
Quoted from the Hebrew and Aramaic Dictionary:
“Hayah; To exist i.e. be or become, come to pass. Hayah means “to become, occur, come to pass, beâ€
“One of the most debated uses of Hayah occurs in Ex 3v13, where God tells Moses His name. He says “I am [hayah] that I am [hayah}†Since the divine name Jehovah or Yahweh was well known long before, this revelation seems to emphasize that the God who made the covenant was the God who kept the covenant. So Ex 3v14 is more than a simple statement of identity: “I am that I am†is a declaration of divine control of all thingsâ€
So it seems that this scripture is very much debated and could mean a fair few things?
Fifthly, In the first book of Genesis chapter 1, “Hayah†is used at least 10 times. In all cases it was translated as “It was so.†In fact the statement or phrase is used all over the Old Teasament.
So HAYAH seems to mean a “declaration of divine control of all thingsâ€
Since both the scriptures mentioned are very much debated, I don’t feel comfortable using either scripture to satisfy that Jesus is the “I AM†who spoke to Moses from the bush.
MARK CH 12v 18-27 “27 He is not the God of the dead, but of the livingâ€
Well if you still believe that Jesus is “The Being†who spoke to Moses from the bush, and you consider the words above to be ridiculous! That’s fine, you don’t have to believe it, but what I ask you to do is look as Jesus’ words in Mark 12 v 18-27.
18 And Sad'ducees came to him, who say that there is no resurrection; and they asked him a question, saying, 19 "Teacher, Moses wrote for us that if a man's brother dies and leaves a wife, but leaves no child, the man must take the wife, and raise up children for his brother. 20 There were seven brothers; the first took a wife, and when he died left no children; 21 and the second took her, and died, leaving no children; and the third likewise; 22 and the seven left no children. Last of all the woman also died. 23 In the resurrection whose wife will she be? For the seven had her as wife." 24 Jesus said to them, "Is not this why you are wrong, that you know neither the scriptures nor the power of God? 25 For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 26 And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God said to him, 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? 27 He is not God of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong."
So above in plain English is Jesus stating that he IS NOT the GOD of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob or the “I AM†who spoke to Moses from the bush.
Anyhow, I hope that this little article puts to rest the great debate.
Regards
Mattry123
mattyry123@gmail.com
