The 2 Principle Commandments and the 4 possibilities it gives.

[Adullam]

Addullam,
My name is Jennie.
I am new here.
I just wanted to tell you I am enjoying this thread!
I'll be back to see what more you have to say!

Greetings Jennie! Feel free to join right in! ;)

Blessings,

John

 

[Adullam]

Great thread Adullum!

I would say briefly that their righteousness was their own, and not the righteousness that came by God's grace which had been poured upon them. They took the blessing that God had given them and became a harlot by prostituting the grace of God for their own gain.

I think Ezekiel 16 explains this better than I, as I'm reminded how history always has a way of repeating itself.

My esteemed Jeff! Again there is much truth to this but there is something deeper going on that also explains Ez.16.

The righteousness of a man does not become self-righteousness unless a man seeks to justify himself for what he has done! Remember the righteous sheep (Mat. 25) ask...when did we see you and help you?! So I must draw a distinction here!

So when God says he will slay the righteous, this does not mean the self-righteous.....there is something more going on here.

The stakes were higher in Jerusalem for some reason!!! ;) Something happened there where mere righteousness was just not enough.

 

[Adullam]

Well....it seems they were not really distinguishable from the unrighteous...
They were supposed to glorify God for the surrounding nations to see.
But He didn't have their hearts. They wouldn't give up their idols.
So they didn't show Him to the other nations at all.
They didn't love Him - not really.
It was the same old story - they "made a deal to cheat death."

You are on the same wavelength as StoveBolts!

Here is another hint...to whom much is given MORE is required!;)

 

[Adullam]

Let's put our 4D glasses on!

God does not promise death to the righteous, but life. Yet in Ezekiel 21 He does condemn the righteous!

Why?

Prov. 12:28 In the way of righteousness is life: and in the pathway thereof there is no death.

When a righteous man stands in the holy place...he transgresses. He is standing in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Jerusalem did not know the time of it's visitation. That visitation was holy.

How many times did Jesus say that Sodom and Gomorrha would fare better than the cities of Israel because, had they seen and heard what they had....they would have repented long ago.

So it is like this. Salvation for the righteous is touch and go! As Peter says...

And “If the righteous is scarcely saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?” 1 Pet. 4:18

Now the holy are abundantly saved! These will sit on thrones and judge angels! So here we see the scale of the catagories of the kingdom.

So if a righteous man experiences what normally only the holy experience, then that one will be held to a higher standard!

To whom much is given, MORE is required!

We are responsible for what we have received from God!

The righteous have an excuse (usually) that an imperfect man is the one relaying a message that has become garbled through the flesh.

But Jerusalem had a divine visitation.

"...and they will level you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation." Luke 19:44

That visitation was HOLY!

So the righteous have no excuse, but to accept this holiness!

THAT is why Peter stands up in the city and declares they must receive Jesus as the Son of God OR THEY will perish!

 

[Sam21]

The righteous were living in a place and at a time when the judgment of God had been determined to occur,so they became part of it. Kind of like when God said to His people to flee out of Babylon lest they be partakers of her sins and receive of her plagues. Daniel was a righteous man who suffered under the wrath of God,though the good news is that God remained with him and helped him.

 

[Adullam]

The righteous were living in a place and at a time when the judgment of God had been determined to occur,so they became part of it. Kind of like when God said to His people to flee out of Babylon lest they be partakers of her sins and receive of her plagues. Daniel was a righteous man who suffered under the wrath of God,though the good news is that God remained with him and helped him.

Yes Sam! Ignorance is not bliss! ;)

This reminds me of...


My people perish for lack of knowledge.

We can never judge a certain situation from a different situation. There is no "one size fits all" in the kingdom. There are many factors which only a proper understanding can discern! It would be better to know the Lord and HIS WAYS! :nod

 

[Adullam]

I want to get on with this study by giving out more problems from the bible!

But I thought of adding this!

The difference between the righteous and the holy.

God is easy to please but hard to satisfy.

The righteous please Him. But the saints satisfy Him. Many are called but few are chosen!

The righteous are scarecely saved, but the saints will rule with Christ.

The righteous enter into life, but the saints enter into glory!

So the NT standard is NOT just salvation, but GLORY!!!

 

[Jake]

Let's put our 4D glasses on!

God does not promise death to the righteous, but life. Yet in Ezekiel 21 He does condemn the righteous!

Why?

Prov. 12:28 In the way of righteousness is life: and in the pathway thereof there is no death.

When a righteous man stands in the holy place...he transgresses. He is standing in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Jerusalem did not know the time of it's visitation. That visitation was holy.

How many times did Jesus say that Sodom and Gomorrha would fare better than the cities of Israel because, had they seen and heard what they had....they would have repented long ago.

So it is like this. Salvation for the righteous is touch and go! As Peter says...

And “If the righteous is scarcely saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?†1 Pet. 4:18

Now the holy are abundantly saved! These will sit on thrones and judge angels! So here we see the scale of the catagories of the kingdom.

So if a righteous man experiences what normally only the holy experience, then that one will be held to a higher standard!

To whom much is given, MORE is required!

We are responsible for what we have received from God!

The righteous have an excuse (usually) that an imperfect man is the one relaying a message that has become garbled through the flesh.

But Jerusalem had a divine visitation.

"...and they will level you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation." Luke 19:44

That visitation was HOLY!

So the righteous have no excuse, but to accept this holiness!

THAT is why Peter stands up in the city and declares they must receive Jesus as the Son of God OR THEY will perish!

ok, I understand the visitation was Holy, yet we can expect any visitation to be Holy as God is always Holy, never changing, He can be nothing less, BUT we can be less, and that seems to be the issue here, the Israelites were less than the standard, because they were less than Holy, they were disciplined, but not killed as you have said because righteousness is "life".
so, unless I am missing a huge part of your lesson, I still see it as the Israelites were less than what was expected.
and NOW, the standards can be seen through Jesus, and He is in us, we have Him, so the more we receive, more is expected and I believe that to be the case for us today, compared to OT.
but maybe we are saying the same thing.

 

[Adullam]

ok, I understand the visitation was Holy, yet we can expect any visitation to be Holy as God is always Holy, never changing, He can be nothing less, BUT we can be less, and that seems to be the issue here, the Israelites were less than the standard, because they were less than Holy, they were disciplined, but not killed as you have said because righteousness is "life".
so, unless I am missing a huge part of your lesson, I still see it as the Israelites were less than what was expected.
and NOW, the standards can be seen through Jesus, and He is in us, we have Him, so the more we receive, more is expected and I believe that to be the case for us today, compared to OT.
but maybe we are saying the same thing.

Yes! But here there was a whole city that received visitation at the same time. This was reflected in the fact that the whole city was called to repent at the same time.

This never happened in Corinth or Rome! This was a unique event. Jerusalem is different. That is why EZ. 21 is unique as well!

 

[Jake]

Yes! But here there was a whole city that received visitation at the same time. This was reflected in the fact that the whole city was called to repent at the same time.

This never happened in Corinth or Rome! This was a unique event. Jerusalem is different. That is why EZ. 21 is unique as well!

Oh! got it.
sorry.

 

[montanaviking]

Nice study! I would like to add something here that you probably are going to say, and maybe I am jumping the gun, so forgive me if I do. In this verse
(11) the verbs and tense are very important as well as the meaning of the words. This verbs here referring to "let him be righteous still" and the others are active, imperative and aorist. What that simply means is this;
Active- the subject is doing the action. The righteous, the holy, the filthy the wicked are the ones doing the righteous, holy, filthy and wicked action.
Imperative- this indicates that it is a command or instruction given to the hearer. I find this very interesting as the angel is giving a command from God for the righeous to remain righteous, the holy to remain holy, the filthy to remain filthy and the wicked to remain wicked.
Aorist- referrs to the person as doing the action as a "simple occurance" or "summary occurance." What this means is that the person is doing the action single collective whole or a one point-in-time action although it may take place over a period of time. What this means is that the righteous are doing righteous right now and it's effects continue because they remain righteous.

So the people spoken of here are commanded to continue their current course of action. The rightoues are commanded or instructed to continue to be righteous and the holy are commanded to continue to be holy and the filthy are commanded to continue to be filthy and the wicked are commanded to continue to be wicked. WOW!

Now let's take a look at the words or ways they are commanded to be.

Wicked- this word means unjust, unrighteous, iniquitous, vicious, deceitful, fallacious. It is the same word used in the following passages.
2 Peter 2:9 "reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished"
I Peter 3:18 "Christ also hath one suffered for sins, the just for the unjust."
Luke 16:10 "he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much"

Filthy- this word means filth, squalor, sordid, dirty, defiled. It is the same word used in the following passages.
James 1:21 "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness"
I Peter 3:21 "Putting away of the filth of the flesh."

Righteous- this word means just, equitable fair, upright, righteous. It is the same word used in the following passages.
I Peter 3:12 "The eyes of the Lord are over the righteous."
James 5:16 "The prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
Rom 3:10 "There is none righteous, no not one."

Holy- this word means separate from common condition and use, dedicated, pure, righteous, sactified. It is the same word used in the following passages.
I Peter 1:15 "who hath called you is holy, so be ye holy"
2 Tim 1:9 ""and called us with a holy calling"
Rom 11:16 "if the root by holy, so are the branches"

I hope this helps the study along.

 

[Adullam]

Nice study! I would like to add something here that you probably are going to say, and maybe I am jumping the gun, so forgive me if I do. In this verse
(11) the verbs and tense are very important as well as the meaning of the words. This verbs here referring to "let him be righteous still" and the others are active, imperative and aorist. What that simply means is this;
Active- the subject is doing the action. The righteous, the holy, the filthy the wicked are the ones doing the righteous, holy, filthy and wicked action.
Imperative- this indicates that it is a command or instruction given to the hearer. I find this very interesting as the angel is giving a command from God for the righeous to remain righteous, the holy to remain holy, the filthy to remain filthy and the wicked to remain wicked.
Aorist- referrs to the person as doing the action as a "simple occurance" or "summary occurance." What this means is that the person is doing the action single collective whole or a one point-in-time action although it may take place over a period of time. What this means is that the righteous are doing righteous right now and it's effects continue because they remain righteous.

So the people spoken of here are commanded to continue their current course of action. The rightoues are commanded or instructed to continue to be righteous and the holy are commanded to continue to be holy and the filthy are commanded to continue to be filthy and the wicked are commanded to continue to be wicked. WOW!

Now let's take a look at the words or ways they are commanded to be.

Wicked- this word means unjust, unrighteous, iniquitous, vicious, deceitful, fallacious. It is the same word used in the following passages.
2 Peter 2:9 "reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished"
I Peter 3:18 "Christ also hath one suffered for sins, the just for the unjust."
Luke 16:10 "he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much"

Filthy- this word means filth, squalor, sordid, dirty, defiled. It is the same word used in the following passages.
James 1:21 "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness"
I Peter 3:21 "Putting away of the filth of the flesh."

Righteous- this word means just, equitable fair, upright, righteous. It is the same word used in the following passages.
I Peter 3:12 "The eyes of the Lord are over the righteous."
James 5:16 "The prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
Rom 3:10 "There is none righteous, no not one."

Holy- this word means separate from common condition and use, dedicated, pure, righteous, sactified. It is the same word used in the following passages.
I Peter 1:15 "who hath called you is holy, so be ye holy"
2 Tim 1:9 ""and called us with a holy calling"
Rom 11:16 "if the root by holy, so are the branches"

I hope this helps the study along.

Thank you for this input! I feel we can come to a better understanding together. There is just so much here to consider.

It would seem strange that the purpose of God would have say..the wicked to continue to be wicked. But God's ways are just and even. He cannot encourage one group to remain steadfast and tell another not to. So we are faced with this balanced approach that appear as if that God wants something bad!

Of course He wants all men to turn to the truth. But this can only happen when the lines are drawn clear enough to actually see the difference!

I feel that is the purpose of the verse. To demarcate very clearly what the difference is so that men can take it to heart and turn to God if they have not already!

 

[Jennie]

Thank you for this input! I feel we can come to a better understanding together. There is just so much here to consider.

It would seem strange that the purpose of God would have say..the wicked to continue to be wicked. But God's ways are just and even. He cannot encourage one group to remain steadfast and tell another not to. So we are faced with this balanced approach that appear as if that God wants something bad!

Of course He wants all men to turn to the truth. But this can only happen when the lines are drawn clear enough to actually see the difference!

I feel that is the purpose of the verse. To demarcate very clearly what the difference is so that men can take it to heart and turn to God if they have not already!

They are almost scary, these words, being right at the end of our bible.
As if God is saying.....end of discussion. I've given my counsel, do with it what you will but what I have said will happen is going to happen.

 

[Adullam]

They are almost scary, these words, being right at the end of our bible.
As if God is saying.....end of discussion. I've given my counsel, do with it what you will but what I have said will happen is going to happen.

Yes! We are to fear and depart from evil. We need to let the words of the Lord have their desired effect and not seek to pull the punches that would knock the flesh out that clings to us so tenaciously! Let the word KO the old man in us! And let us walk in the provision of God!

 

[Adullam]

OK let's look a little further into this study!

Here is a parable that makes no sense unless we put our 4D glasses on. It concerns an unjust steward that God ultimately is pleased with.

Who can explain what is going on here!


The Unjust Steward, Luke 16:1-8


Now He was also saying to the disciples, 'There was a certain rich man who had a steward, and this steward was reported to him as squandering his possessions. And he called him and said to him, "What is this I hear about you?
Give an account of your stewardship, for you can no longer be steward." and the steward said to himself, "What shall I do, since my master is taking the stewardship away from me? I am not strong enough to dig; I am ashamed to beg. I know what I shall do, so that when I am removed from the
stewardship, they will receive me into their homes." And he summoned each one of his master's debtors, and he began saying to the first, "How much more do you owe my master?" And he said, "A hundred measures of oil." And he said to him, "Take your bill, and sit down quickly and write fifty." Then he said to another, "And how much do you owe?" And he said, "A hundred measures of wheat." He said to him, "Take your bill, and write eighty." And his master praised the unrighteous steward because he had acted shrewdly; for the sons of this age are more shrewd in relation to their own kind than the sons of light.

 

[Jennie]

OK let's look a little further into this study!

Here is a parable that makes no sense unless we put our 4D glasses on. It concerns an unjust steward that God ultimately is pleased with.

Who can explain what is going on here!


The Unjust Steward, Luke 16:1-8


Now He was also saying to the disciples, 'There was a certain rich man who had a steward, and this steward was reported to him as squandering his possessions. And he called him and said to him, "What is this I hear about you?
Give an account of your stewardship, for you can no longer be steward." and the steward said to himself, "What shall I do, since my master is taking the stewardship away from me? I am not strong enough to dig; I am ashamed to beg. I know what I shall do, so that when I am removed from the
stewardship, they will receive me into their homes." And he summoned each one of his master's debtors, and he began saying to the first, "How much more do you owe my master?" And he said, "A hundred measures of oil." And he said to him, "Take your bill, and sit down quickly and write fifty." Then he said to another, "And how much do you owe?" And he said, "A hundred measures of wheat." He said to him, "Take your bill, and write eighty." And his master praised the unrighteous steward because he had acted shrewdly; for the sons of this age are more shrewd in relation to their own kind than the sons of light.

I propbably have this very wrong, but I will have a gander!
The man was forgiving debt to gain the approval of men.
Forgiving debt is righteous (though since it wasn't his own money I have a knot here I can't untie...)

So he was acting righteously but for the wrong reason - mens approval...?
Showing mercy, but for the wrong reason?

He was looking for his own gain, not forgiving debt because his heart was right in it but for his own gain...I think it ties in somehow...

 

[Adullam]

I propbably have this very wrong, but I will have a gander!
The man was forgiving debt to gain the approval of men.
Forgiving debt is righteous (though since it wasn't his own money I have a knot here I can't untie...)

So he was acting righteously but for the wrong reason - mens approval...?
Showing mercy, but for the wrong reason?

He was looking for his own gain, not forgiving debt because his heart was right in it but for his own gain...I think it ties in somehow...

But God seems to be acting out of character here!

Why is He pleased with someone who is spoiling His goods?

 

[Jake]

OK let's look a little further into this study!

Here is a parable that makes no sense unless we put our 4D glasses on. It concerns an unjust steward that God ultimately is pleased with.

Who can explain what is going on here!


The Unjust Steward, Luke 16:1-8


Now He was also saying to the disciples, 'There was a certain rich man who had a steward, and this steward was reported to him as squandering his possessions. And he called him and said to him, "What is this I hear about you?
Give an account of your stewardship, for you can no longer be steward." and the steward said to himself, "What shall I do, since my master is taking the stewardship away from me? I am not strong enough to dig; I am ashamed to beg. I know what I shall do, so that when I am removed from the
stewardship, they will receive me into their homes." And he summoned each one of his master's debtors, and he began saying to the first, "How much more do you owe my master?" And he said, "A hundred measures of oil." And he said to him, "Take your bill, and sit down quickly and write fifty." Then he said to another, "And how much do you owe?" And he said, "A hundred measures of wheat." He said to him, "Take your bill, and write eighty." And his master praised the unrighteous steward because he had acted shrewdly; for the sons of this age are more shrewd in relation to their own kind than the sons of light.

he wasn't given praise because he was unrighteous, but only because he acted wise, it was self preseveration on the stewards part. It was a win-win for both, although it was selfish motivation, he did give charity in that he lessened their rent and in doing so, the renters would be more obliged to the master in the future.

 

[Jake]

But God seems to be acting out of character here!

Why is He pleased with someone who is spoiling His goods?

i don't think it was about the goods, it was about the action part of what he did with the goods.

 

[Jennie]

But God seems to be acting out of character here!

Why is He pleased with someone who is spoiling His goods?

Because he was showing mercy that would make the men praise his master?