The 613 something or another

[stovebolts]

"God's Law" says to sacrifice an unblemished lamb on Passover.

If I did that today, would I be obeying a Law of God or of man?

I would like you to answer my question.

You would be breaking God's law if you sacrificed a lamb on Passover. That is why Jews today don't sacrifice any animals, at any time since 70 ad.

You have made it a point to want your questions answered.

Only to have you study a little deeper than you have.

You told me you were waiting for my answer from the law about hating your enemies. Then when I showed where it was commanded to utterly destroy and show no mercy to their enemies you side stepped the question.

How did I side step your question? I clearly stated that God was not commanding his children to hate their enemies with the passage you quoted and I clearly stated why. In addition, I clearly showed you where you were out of context with the words of Jesus, "You have heard it said" and provided my sources. You have failed to show any of your sources depicting "You have heard it said" and have opted to stick to your interpretation of the passage you provided while you insist that is what Jesus was referring to.

Here's the deal about as clearly as I can say it. Show me something from the Sages that agrees with your interpretation of "Hate your enemies" being associated with the verse you posted and you'll have a case. As it sits, I showed you my sources which are facts, not opinion. Until you can provide solid Jewish sources of the day (Sanhedrin, Sages, Kaballa, Ramban, Rashi, Mamondies) your opinion on how that passage was intepreted as "You have heard it said" doesn't hold any water.

You made it a point to bring up the fact that your son made an evaluation about me hating Jews, when I asked you to have him evaluate the scripture where God commanded the children of Israel to utterly destroy their enemies and show them no mercy, if that was an act of love or hate?

I brought this up because it happened with absolutely no prompting from me. He saw this on his own through what he read on his own. I told you this because he was a set of eyes from the outside looking in. If you don't hate the Jews, you need to know that from the outside, you come off as if you do. This is a global forum and we get people from all over the world including Israel on this site, so if a child reads your post as being hateful, then as an Administrator of this site I'm going to take that seriously and you should too.

Then you try to justify your stand... What's wrong with saying, "Wow, I honestly don't hate the Jews and I had no idea I was coming off that way". But instead of being concerned with how your coming across to others, you try to justify your behavior. For the record, how does that edify the Body of Christ and serve this forums mission statement? You may want to start thinking about our mission statement and start coming in line with it... and yes, consider this an official tap on the shoulder in that regard.

You sidestepped and would not answer again.

When Satan told Jesus to jump off a rock and quoted scripture, did Jesus side step by quoting another passage that correctly applied? I clearly told you of previous discussions my son and I have had on that same topic and I'll not drag my son into this any further.

"God's Law" says to sacrifice an unblemished lamb on Passover.

If I did that today, would I be obeying a Law of God or of man?

As I clearly stated above, you would be in violation of God's law to do so today. This is why I asked you to research the matter from Jewish sources.... because they understand the law and have to maneuver within it. Unfortunately, Ryan answered this question for you and I was hoping you would do your own study to find this. You really need to study what your talking about just a little more before you make such bold statements.

Rather than validate mans religion and those who reject Christ, why not tell them the truth?

What are you calling mans religion? You seem to call the Law of Moses mans' religion when in fact, those are God's laws... When you say things like that, I don't know how to take it. As far as God's truth, please read my signature... both passages and ponder that for just a moment. And yes, the statement you just made sounds very hateful toward the Jews.

That law has vanished away, it was fulfilled by Jesus Christ the Messiah.

The law has not vanished away... Jews try to keep it every day and portions of it are written on your own heart, as they are written on the hearts of many. You misunderstand the covenants because what you speak of is in regard to covenants.

Romans 7:Or do you not know, brothers[a]—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives? 2 For a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage. 3 Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress.

4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. 5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.

 

[JLB]

You would be breaking God's law if you sacrificed a lamb on Passover. That is why Jews today don't sacrifice any animals, at any time since 70 ad.

Why? Because the Law is obsolete and has vanished away.

How did I side step your question? I clearly stated that God was not commanding his children to hate their enemies with the passage you quoted and I clearly stated why. In addition, I clearly showed you where you were out of context with the words of Jesus, "You have heard it said" and provided my sources. You have failed to show any of your sources depicting "You have heard it said" and have opted to stick to your interpretation of the passage you provided while you insist that is what Jesus was referring to.

Utterly destroying their enemies and not have mercy on them.

It is an act of Love or it is an act of hate.

Scriptures such as this is where the oral tradition gets its meaning.

Here's the deal about as clearly as I can say it. Show me something from the Sages that agrees with your interpretation of "Hate your enemies" being associated with the verse you posted and you'll have a case. As it sits, I showed you my sources which are facts, not opinion. Until you can provide solid Jewish sources of the day (Sanhedrin, Sages, Kaballa, Ramban, Rashi, Mamondies) your opinion on how that passage was intepreted as "You have heard it said" doesn't hold any water.

I will not try to validate God's word with man's religion.

Why would you. Judaism is a mixture of the traditions of men and the Law of Moses. That mixing together is what is forbidden by God.

That is why those who were followers of that religion murdered Jesus Christ and persecuted His followers.

Followers of that religion reject Jesus as Messiah today.

When Satan told Jesus to jump off a rock and quoted scripture, did Jesus side step by quoting another passage that correctly applied? I clearly told you of previous discussions my son and I have had on that same topic and I'll not drag my son into this any further.

No. He showed the scripture that was the truth for that situation, which is what I am doing with you.

It is not appropriate to sacrifice animals today.

For it is written, In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

The whole law that was added until the Seed should come, has become obsolete and has vanished away.

The Seed has come, the law has vanished away.

What are you calling mans religion?

Judaism.

The law has not vanished away...

See above. Reference Hebrews 8:13, Galatians 3:19, Jeremiah 31:31

 

[stovebolts]

Why? Because the Law is obsolete and has vanished away.

For it is written, In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

The whole law that was added until the Seed should come, has become obsolete and has vanished away.

Look closely... it is the covenant that is being spoken about... Something I have mentioned many times but you fail to recognize. The theme of Hebrews is a better covenant.

You're becoming obstinate even in light of the scriptures and reasoning provided. I have nothing further to say.

Grace and Peace.

 

[JLB]

Why? Because the Law is obsolete and has vanished away.

For it is written, In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

The whole law that was added until the Seed should come, has become obsolete and has vanished away.

Look closely... it is the covenant that is being spoken about... Something I have mentioned many times but you fail to recognize. The theme of Hebrews is a better covenant.

You're becoming obstinate even in light of the scriptures and reasoning provided. I have nothing further to say.

Grace and Peace.

6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. Hebrews 8:6-7

So the covenant of Sinai is what has vanished away, but the law that governed the covenant is somehow still in place.

The law calls for animal sacrifices.

The law calls for specific food laws.

The law calls for clothing laws.

The law calls for feast days to be kept in Jerusalem.

Are these laws still active, even though the covenant has vanished away?

Is that what you are teaching us?


JLB

 

[Sparkey]

Thoughts about "man's religion". The word "Scribe" describes a group of experts who had memorized vast portions of Scripture. Some of them came to the conclusion that men didn't need healing because their disease or disability was due to their sin. They would often criticize Jesus for violating very fine points in their understanding of the Law of God. The word "scribe," itself, points to part of what was happening because it meant "counting" and was given to these guys because of their habit of counting pen strokes while copying Scripture to ensure they made no mistake.

They added things to the law as did the Pharisees. I'm thinking now about hand-washing and ritual cleansing and the accompanying statement, "Get hence from me for I am holier than thou." They were also ill-prepared to see God, whom they said they were serving. Jesus alone saw the true nature of our Father in heaven. He alone acted accordingly. If one says, "I want to hear from God," all he need do now is listen to what Jesus said. They had trouble understanding that. With all their great and vast understanding of the Holy Writ, they missed the point and didn't understand that the one they criticized indeed was the Lamb of God. They knew about the holiness of God but didn't know how the Lord planned on accomplishing His holiness in others, couldn't know as at that time, the the time of what we call the Day of Pentecost had not yet come, Jesus had not yet paid the price for the sins of those who believed on Him, and "The Teacher," which is the Holy Spirit was not yet given. Even the eyes of the closest Disciples had not yet been opened to the full truth that Jesus brought.

So then now, we look at "The Law" and we may also look and try to better understand what happened at the cross and thereafter. But still there are things that we (wait, I'll speak for myself here) ... but still there are things that I do not understand. That's not to say that we don't understand the basics, but instead it's the hard parts, or at least, that's what I think. Paul was expert on such things but I do not have his knowledge, did not become "the chiefest of Pharisees" and have no benefit of the extreme discipline that he had while he was yet young and a man of many studies. I also do not share in the position he was given, that being Apostle to the Gentiles, so pardon me for my lack of understanding.

What we do have is the Word of God as recorded through this Apostle as well as the Word of God given through others and recorded in the New Testament. Regarding the finer points about the Law and the revelation of the mystery of the church, we are better equipped than men of that day, for the most part. But to say that achieving understanding of the more difficult parts is easier today? I don't know.

Pardon my going on and on here about it but this is my long winded way of saying that I've read much of what is posted here and am not really sure what the current discussion is about? One man speaks about yeast and leven and another replies then the topic seems to switch almost immediately to the larger parts of passover and the offering of a lamb while the question about "mans law" and "Gods law" is asserted. The revised question is answered but there is something left unstated somewhere (at least that's a conclusion that I read behind the lines) and the discussion continues without resolve.

Long story short, a very brief statement regarding the core issue would be appreciated as I feel a little lost here and that would let me go back to lurking and enjoying the conversation between brothers as guided by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Ryan]

Unfortunately, Ryan answered this question for you and I was hoping you would do your own study to find this. You really need to study what your talking about just a little more before you make such bold statements.

Sorry, I am used to feeding others with a silver spoon. Bad habit I guess.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So the covenant of Sinai is what has vanished away, but the law that governed the covenant is somehow still in place.

The law calls for animal sacrifices.

The law calls for specific food laws.

The law calls for clothing laws.

The law calls for feast days to be kept in Jerusalem.

Are these laws still active, even though the covenant has vanished away?

Is that what you are teaching us?

I am teaching that (if what you want to call sharing in this forum 'teaching'). But those laws are not necessarily active in the same literal WAY of the first covenant.

The first covenant represented eternal principles of sacrifice and obedience. Principles that existed, as you well know, before they were written down at Mt. Sinai (we've already talked about God's purpose in writing them down...and wrapping them in the system of what is now called the first, or old, covenant).

These eternal principles are now no longer wrapped in the fabric, the system, the WAY of first covenant, but in the fabric and WAY of the New Covenant, faith in Christ.

What vanished away, because it is was made obsolete and no longer needed by the work of Christ, is the old covenant system and WAY of approaching God in worship. Not the eternal principles that old system and WAY represented and communicated to mankind.

The new WAY accomplishes what the old WAY was powerless to do. But it's still the same eternal laws of sacrifice and obedience that get upheld in this New Covenant--this New WAY of approaching God in worship.

"...we serve in the new way of the Spirit (via faith in Christ), and not in the old way of the written code." (Romans 7:6 NIV)


"31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law." (Romans 3: NIV)

 

[Sparkey]

I drew a very crude illustration of something that I hope is useful here and attempted to show how our understanding has progressed as well as what I see while looking at past events found in Scripture regarding something that the Lord is doing.

Here we see that the Law of Moses is contained within the Spirit of the Law (a larger view) but that in the past our view was limited to our interactions with God then. Part of what happened is that He, as our invisible Father, acted to correct situations that arose from our disobedience, thus limiting our sight regarding His full plan. Other things that contributed to the limits of our view is that the Plan of God includes showing us the shadow of things to come. Pardon my drawing skills here, somebody could have done a much better job, but for those where a picture is worth a thousand words, this might be worth 93 words or so:

I didn't put a point of demarcation to show the life of Jesus who exemplified for us who our Father is but it can be imagined easily. Notice that the fuller understanding of the Spirit of the Law (called the "weightier matters") is always contained within the law, as seen by the Prophets who were often curious about what the Spirit of God was doing in their lives and that it was in fact shown to them that what they enquired about was not for their benefit, but for ours.