The 7 Trumpets are the Same as the 7 Bowls

[Orates]

More confusion exists about the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls of Revelation than any other prophecy. They are not sequential like most people believe. They are one and the same prophecies. They are just from two perspectives. It is like a firefighter from a helicopter saying one third of the forest is burning, while another on the ground says- the forest is burning! It is the same fire. Here is a list of the key events of the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls together. I hope you will see that they describe the same events- in fact the first four of each describe one single event!

Revelation (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society

Rev 8:6 Then the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared to sound them.
Rev 8:7 The first angel sounded his trumpet, and there came hail and fire mixed with blood, and it was hurled down upon the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up.
Rev 16:1 Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, "Go, pour out the seven bowls of God's wrath on the earth." 2The first angel went and poured out his bowl on the land, and ugly and painful sores broke out on the people who had the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. (These two are not so obviously connected)

Rev 8:8 Thesecond angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a huge mountain, all ablaze, was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned into blood, 9a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.
Rev16:3 The second angel poured out his bowl on the sea, and it turned into blood like that of a dead man, and every living thing in the sea died.

Rev 8:10The third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star, blazing like a torch, fell from the sky on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water 11the name of the star is Wormwood.[a] A third of the waters turned bitter, and many people died from the waters that had become bitter.
Rev 16:4 The third angel poured out his bowl on the rivers and springs of water, and they became blood.

Rev 8:12 The fourth angel sounded his trumpet, and a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them turned dark. A third of the day was without light, and also a third of the night.
Rev 16:8The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and the sun was given power to scorch people with fire. 9They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him.

Rev 8:13 As I watched, I heard an eagle that was flying in midair call out in a loud voice: "Woe! Woe! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth, because of the trumpet blasts about to be sounded by the other three angels!"

Rev 9:1 The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss. 2When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss. 3And out of the smoke locusts came down upon the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. 4They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5They were not given power to kill them, but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes a man. 6During those days men will seek death, but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them.
7The locusts looked like horses prepared for battle. On their heads they wore something like crowns of gold, and their faces resembled human faces. 8Their hair was like women's hair, and their teeth were like lions' teeth. 9They had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the thundering of many horses and chariots rushing into battle. 10They had tails and stings like scorpions, and in their tails they had power to torment people for five months. 11They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek, Apollyon.[a]
Rev 16:10 The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom was plunged into darkness. Men gnawed their tongues in agony 11and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they refused to repent of what they had done.

12The first woe is past; two other woes are yet to come.

Rev9:13 The sixth angel sounded his trumpet, and I heard a voice coming from the horns of the golden altar that is before God. 14It said to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, "Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates." 15And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind. 16The number of the mounted troops was two hundred million. I heard their number.
17The horses and riders I saw in my vision looked like this: Their breastplates were fiery red, dark blue, and yellow as sulfur. The heads of the horses resembled the heads of lions, and out of their mouths came fire, smoke and sulfur. 18A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke and sulfur that came out of their mouths. 19The power of the horses was in their mouths and in their tails; for their tails were like snakes, having heads with which they inflict injury.
20The rest of mankind that were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and woodâ€â€idols that cannot see or hear or walk. 21Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.
Rev 16:12 The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East. 13Then I saw three evil[a] spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14They are spirits of demons performing miraculous signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty. 16Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

Rev 9:15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:
"The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever." 16And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17saying:
"We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
the One who is and who was,
because you have taken your great power
and have begun to reign.
18The nations were angry; and your wrath has come.
The time has come for judging the dead,
and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your saints and those who reverence your name,
both small and greatâ€â€
and for destroying those who destroy the earth."
19Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a great hailstorm.
Rev 16:17 The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and out of the temple came a loud voice from the throne, saying, "It is done!" 18Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake. No earthquake like it has ever occurred since man has been on earth, so tremendous was the quake. 19The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. God remembered Babylon the Great and gave her the cup filled with the wine of the fury of his wrath. 20Every island fled away and the mountains could not be found. 21From the sky huge hailstones of about a hundred pounds each fell upon men. And they cursed God on account of the plague of hail, because the plague was so terrible.

The 7 Trumpets describes the same events as the 7 Bowls- including Armageddon and Jesus' Second Coming in both the 7th Trumpet and 7th Bowl. They are not sequential! Just two descriptions of the same events from two different perspectives.

Orates 2006

 

[Darrell dunn]

AMEN AMEN

The seven Trumpets and seven vials make up the seven years of Dan.9:27

The first 4 are the first half , and the last 3 are the last half.

read the 4th trumpet , that is where the days are shortened.

The seven seals are another 3 1/2 years before Dan. 9:27 starts.

 

[Orates]

Actually...

Well actually, the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls describes the events of the Wrath of God, which starts in the latter half of Daniel's 70th Week. The Mark of the Beast comes after Midweek- see the first Trumpet/Bowl.

Here is a quick summary...

When the Treaty is Signed It Will Be T-Minus Seven Years to the End of the Age and Counting

T-Minus 7 Years: Israel and Arabs sign a seven year interim peace treaty ushering in almost 3 ½ years of peace in the Middle East.

T-Minus 3 ½ Years: Approx. 3 ½ years after the signing of the Treaty, an Arab nation (possibly Syria, Iraq or Iran) attacks Israel. US and Coalition forces head to the Middle East to intervene. This time the Israelis retaliate leading to an all out Jihad against them by the Arabs. The US and Coalition forces divert to Israel to stop the war. The head of the US and Coalition forces (seen by some Jews as their Messiah, but true Christians recognize him as the Antichrist) sets up his command center in the safest place in the Middle East- the secret chamber or Holy of Holies of the original Jewish Temple directly beneath the Arab Dome of the Rock. The Antichrist places a computer/ television (the Image of the Beast or the Abomination of Desolation) on the altar effectively ending the secret religious animal sacrifices of the Jewish priesthood. Some Jews, believing and understanding the prophecy of all this from the Book of Daniel, flee by plane to the wilderness east of Israel. The Antichrist sends troops to intercept them, but an earthquake swallows them up. The Antichrist takes his anger out over this interference on believing Christians worldwide by initiating a New Economic Order arising out of the chaos of the war. He requires everyone in his domain to take an invisible UPC Mark to be able to buy and sell. Those true Christians who refuse the Mark are rounded up as starving homeless insane vagrants, put in camps, and eventually beheaded as a final solution. False Christians, who for security and out of misguided loyalty to the Antichrist’s New World Order, accept his UPC Mark in their right hands or foreheads. This is the unforgivable sin. False Christians who fall away and take the Mark will live for a few years- until they are eventually wiped out in “God’s Wrath†on the last day of this Age.

T-Minus 3 ½ Years to Last Day: Sometime after all this, the Russian Confederacy, allied with Arabs, invade Israel all the way to Egypt ousting the Antichrist from the Middle East. The Antichrist’s forces have to regroup in Europe to the north, while the Chinese in the east march across Asia with a 200 million-man army. These mighty armies all meet for the great battle of Armageddon in northern Israel. (This is the start of the 7 Trumpet/Bowl judgments.)

T-Minus Last Day: Christian Martyrs from all ages (including those recently persecuted by the Antichrist) come to life in the First Resurrection to meet Jesus in the air. The surviving Jews, hiding in the wilderness, are caught up into the clouds to meet them in what is called the “Raptureâ€Â. These two groups return to earth with Jesus on white horses to destroy the forces gathered at the battle of Armageddon. The surviving Jews in Jerusalem, who accept Jesus as their Messiah at His appearance, flee to seek refuge in a valley formed when the Mount of Olives in Israel splits in two. On this last day of our age called the “Day of God’s Wrathâ€Â, all the cities of the world fall and all the rest of the people of the world, who took the Mark, die.

Thanks for your comments.. Orates

 

[Darrell dunn]

Orates

That was a great story but scripture will not support it.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Just as Jesus overturned tables in the temple twice, the judgments of God that come through the blowing of the trumpets and the pouring out of the vials are separate events.
If there is a pattern to be seen, it is that God calls to repentance, He then warns of judgment that will come if we do not repent, He gives a taste of the judgment to give us one more opportunity to repent, followed by harsher judgment. Then final judgment.
Another example that He gave us of this is the term birth pangs. They get a bit more intense each time.

:lilangel:

 

[Quasar]

7 Trumpet and 7 Bowl/Vial judgements

Hi guys,

The 7 Trumpet judgements are not the same as the 7 Bowl/Vial judgements, the Scriptures are clear about, and I am on the same page with G.L.A. about it.

The "he" who "confirms a covenant" in Dan.9:27, is the same "he" who breaks it in the middle of the "week," the 7 year tribulation, and is the Antichrist.

The tribulation is divided into two parts with the first 3.5 years, the world is at peace, while the final 3.5 years is the wrath of God as well as the awful destruction the Antichrist, false prophet and the ten nation confederation will bring upon the earth.

None of the Trumpet or Bowl/Vial judgments begin until after God places the 144,000 converted 'evangelists' from Israel on the earth, in Rev.7, who take the place of the Church that will be raptured before the Antichrist is revealed [2 Thes.2:3-4 and 7-8].

Blessings,

Quasar

 

[MrVersatile48]

IT'S IN THE SHEER SCALE

In Rev 8-9, only a third of the waters..the trees..the people are affected

In Rev 16, ALL the waters are poisoned, ALL the vegetation scorched....

Revelation prophesies the classic pattern of escalation

In Rev 6:8, 25% of mankind die thru war, famine, pestilences & the wild beasts of Earth

In Rev 9:13-18, 33% of the survivors die in war begun at R Euphrates

Rev 16 parallels the total Armageddon of Joel 3 & Zechariah 14

Don't miss the instant airlift Rapture rescue of all who love Jesus - Matt 24:30-31, 1 Corinthians 15:51-58 & 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:11

"Encourage one another with these words"

& pass it on to those who need to know

"Now is the acceptable time; behold, now is the day of salvation"

God bless!

Ian

 

[JustifiedByFaith]

Something else worth notice:

A powerful sequence is shown below

1. Chapter 13>man of sin revealed
2. Chapter 14>angel preaches the everlasting gospel to those on earth
3. Chapter 14>patience of the saints, time of harvest
4. Chapter 15>seven plagues (wrath of God)

Hmm? ;-) Sounds a little like Matthew 24 and 2 Thessalonians to me.

 

[Darrell dunn]

Lets read every Word as it is written.

Dan.9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon THY people and upon the HOLY CITY.

Now this is the Jews & Jerusalem not the world.

And who was it that gave the Original 70 weeks.GOD WITH THE JEWS.

And why would the last week be with the AC?

Then 9:27 And he shall conform THE covenant with many for one week.

What covenant? the original , It did not say A covenant it said THE..

THAT IS WHAT GOD DOES WHEN HE SEALS 144,000, He confirmed THE covenant with many....;

 

[Vic C.]

Green's literal:

27 And he shall confirm a covenant with the many for one week. And in the middle of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease. And on a corner of the altar will be abominations that desolate, even until the end. And that which was decreed shall pour out on the desolator.

Young's literal:

27And he hath strengthened a covenant with many -- one week, and [in] the midst of the week he causeth sacrifice and present to cease, and by the wing of abominations he is making desolate, even till the consummation, and that which is determined is poured on the desolate one.'

Darby's:

27And he shall confirm a covenant with the many [for] one week; and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and because of the protection of abominations [there shall be] a desolator, even until that the consumption and what is determined shall be poured out upon the desolate.

Literal with Strong's:

27. |1396| And he will confirm |1285| a covenant |7227| with the many |7620| {for} week |0259| one. |2677| And in the half of |7620| the week |7673| he will make cease |2076| sacrifice |7126| and offering, |5921| and upon |3671| a wing as |8251| abominations |8074| a desolator, |5704| even until |7093| {the} end. |2282| And that which was decreed |3332| will pour out |5921| upon |8074| the desolator.

 

[lecoop]

Some good answers here: and some are on the right track.

The trumpets and the vials cannot possibly be speaking of the same events for one simple reason: they are separated by about 3 1/2 years! The trumpets are sounded in the first half of the week, and the vials are poured out in the second half of the week. The trumpets, as was mentioned, will serve as a warning, that worse things are coming. The vials are the worse things coming, because men refuse to repent.

The trumpets and vials are separated by the midpoint events as listed by John. Some of these are John measuring the temple, the two witnesses showing up, the war in heaven, and the visible entrance of the beast. This would be when he committs the abomination and the remnant flees (chapter 12). The exact midpoint is marked. One could find it somewhere in John's midpoint "intermission" which is from chapter 10 to chapter 15.

Coop

 

[Vic C.]

... One could find it somewhere in John's midpoint "intermission" which is from chapter 10 to chapter 15.

Coop

I consider it more of a backpedaling, recap and expanding of some of the events found going on during fifth and sixth seal verses. I don't see this as a three and 1/2 year gap or intermission. The Trumps start later in the second half of the week and are immediately followed by the bowls (vials), which overlap into the additional 30 days of Daniel's 12th. chapter. The Trumpets and bowls are all part of God's wrath, with the bowls being the worse of the Wrath.

 

[lecoop]

... One could find it somewhere in John's midpoint "intermission" which is from chapter 10 to chapter 15.

Coop

I consider it more of a backpedaling, recap and expanding of some of the events found going on during fifth and sixth seal verses. I don't see this as a three and 1/2 year gap or intermission. The Trumps start later in the second half of the week and are immediately followed by the bowls (vials), which overlap into the additional 30 days of Daniel's 12th. chapter. The Trumpets and bowls are all part of God's wrath, with the bowls being the worse of the Wrath.

No, John does not "backpeddle." What he does do, is drop the main "time-line" for a time, to write of things that must take place before the next "real-time" event can take place. A perfect example is the intermission or break between the 6th and 7th seal. The 70th week will begin at the 7th seal, but before it can begin, the sealing of the 144,00 MUST take place. So John drops his "real-time" time line, and writes about these events that must take place before the 7th seal can be broken.

John does the very same thing between the 6th and 7th trumpet. Why does he break into an intermission here? Because this is near the midpoint, and many events will take place here near the midpoint. John is careful to give us each main event in the order that they will take place. For example, the great battle in the heavenlies will take place during this midpoint, and before any vials can be poured out. And before this great battle, the two witnesses will show up. Actually, all the events from about chapter 10 to chapter 14 take place nearly the same time. It is just that there are so many different events that John must cover, that it takes chapters to do it.

The way John wrote the book, it will be impossible for any trumpet to be sounded before all the seals are broken, and it will be impossible for any vial to be poured out before all seven of the trumpets are sounded. Any theory that tries to mix these up is suspect. God wrote this book to reveal, not to confuse! Why would He cause it to be written with "flashbacks" as some modern movie writers do? No, the HS caused John to write events in the exact order that they will take place. Next, there is no real reason to try to "mix things up!" The book makes perfect sense as it is written.

Coop

 

[Vic C.]

No, John does not "backpeddle." What he does do, is drop the main "time-line" for a time, to write of things that must take place before the next "real-time" event can take place. A perfect example is the intermission or break between the 6th and 7th seal. The 70th week will begin at the 7th seal, but before it can begin, the sealing of the 144,00 MUST take place. So John drops his "real-time" time line, and writes about these events that must take place before the 7th seal can be broken.

The 144,000 are sealed midpoint. This is in line with the war between Michael and Satan. This lines up with Daniel 12:1. Satan is thrown down to Earth when Michael stands up (or stands still, as it is understood in Hebrew terms). Once Satan is free to attack the Jews on earth, they (the sealed remnant, the 144,000), flee into the wilderness.

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

That's 1,260 days or three and one half years. Daniel mentions a thousand two hundred and ninety days and then thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. That is about 3.7 years. That's an extra 30 and 45 days. Subtract those two from 1,335 and you have 3 1/2 years. The only other place that Daniel mentions a specific number of days is in Daniel 8:14.

Since the events in Daniel 12 are second half events... and these events are in line with the events of Rev 12, it becomes clear that the 144,000 are sealed about midpoint. You see, after he is unsucessful in getting the sealed remnant, he then goes after the remnant of the woman's seed. Us.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

That puts the Great Tribulation at the midpoint.

John does the very same thing between the 6th and 7th trumpet. Why does he break into an intermission here? Because this is near the midpoint, and many events will take place here near the midpoint.

It isn't because of any intermission. It is because of the length of the sixth trumpet and the four angels that were let loose. It says they will slay 1/3 of man in a 1 year, 1 month, 1 day and 1 hour time period. I agree there is a lot more going on here too, but it's not midpoint.

For example, the great battle in the heavenlies will take place during this midpoint, and before any vials can be poured out. And before this great battle, the two witnesses will show up. Actually, all the events from about chapter 10 to chapter 14 take place nearly the same time. It is just that there are so many different events that John must cover, that it takes chapters to do it.

Agreed. I'm glad you see the battle at midpoint, though it does contradict your belief that the 144,000 are sealed at the start of the week. I explained why above.

The way John wrote the book, it will be impossible for any trumpet to be sounded before all the seals are broken, and it will be impossible for any vial to be poured out before all seven of the trumpets are sounded.

I agree.

Any theory that tries to mix these up is suspect. God wrote this book to reveal, not to confuse! Why would He cause it to be written with "flashbacks" as some modern movie writers do? No, the HS caused John to write events in the exact order that they will take place. Next, there is no real reason to try to "mix things up!" The book makes perfect sense as it is written.

You can't say that for sure. It was common for apocalyptic writers to write in that style. As a matter of fact, John does it again in chapter 21 and maybe in other places I haven't caught yet. Rev 4:1 may be one of thos places.

 

[lecoop]

No, John does not "backpeddle." What he does do, is drop the main "time-line" for a time, to write of things that must take place before the next "real-time" event can take place. A perfect example is the intermission or break between the 6th and 7th seal. The 70th week will begin at the 7th seal, but before it can begin, the sealing of the 144,00 MUST take place. So John drops his "real-time" time line, and writes about these events that must take place before the 7th seal can be broken.

The 144,000 are sealed midpoint. This is in line with the war between Michael and Satan. This lines up with Daniel 12:1. Satan is thrown down to Earth when Michael stands up (or stands still, as it is understood in Hebrew terms). Once Satan is free to attack the Jews on earth, they (the sealed remnant, the 144,000), flee into the wilderness.

Would you close the barn door, after the horses are out? In a way, that is what you are saying that God does: He performs this sealing in the middle! I disagree with your timing. You are missing the hints God gave us to pinpoint the exact midpoint! This is many chapters from the five times God mentions the 1260 day period. This is many chapters before the "remnant" flees into the wilderness. The timing is too far off fot this to be the midpoint! There is no hint of the abomination here. The closest John gets to the abomination is in chapters 12 & 13. The war also takes place in chapter 12, long after this sealing. Yes, Michael stands up and kicks Satan out of the heavens: no standing still here! The very act of standing up shows action, not he absense of it! "Standing still" is one out of about 20 different definitions shown, IMO. I disagree with this definition. It is Michael that wars against the dragon. I believe a careful study will prove that the remant is not the 144,000; indeed cannot be! the remnant flees to the wilderness after the midpoint (near the 7th trumpet) while the 144,000 are raptured to heaven as the first fruits.

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

That's 1,260 days or three and one half years. Daniel mentions a thousand two hundred and ninety days and then thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. That is about 3.7 years. That's an extra 30 and 45 days. Subtract those two from 1,335 and you have 3 1/2 years. The only other place that Daniel mentions a specific number of days is in Daniel 8:14.

Since the events in Daniel 12 are second half events... and these events are in line with the events of Rev 12, it becomes clear that the 144,000 are sealed about midpoint. You see, after he is unsucessful in getting the sealed remnant, he then goes after the remnant of the woman's seed. Us.

I will agree that the events of Dan 12 are after the abomination event, and therefore will be during the second 1260 days. However, this has nothing to do with the 144,000! They are raptured to heaven near the midpoint, as the first fruits. What does this mean? That there will be second fruits: the remnant is the second fruits God will be looking for, but they will be those to enter into the milenial reign of Christ. The beast cannot go after us, because we will not be here! However, he will go after those saved after the rapture.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

That puts the Great Tribulation at the midpoint.

I will agree that after the midpoint will be a time of "great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." What Jesus is saying is no other time of tribulation will equal this time. And I will agree that it will start with the abomination event. However, this abomination event, as close as John shows us, is in chapter 12 or 13! Please notice this is after the 7th trumpet has sounded, marking the midpoint in heaven.

[quote:ef2fd]John does the very same thing between the 6th and 7th trumpet. Why does he break into an intermission here? Because this is near the midpoint, and many events will take place here near the midpoint.

It isn't because of any intermission. It is because of the length of the sixth trumpet and the four angels that were let loose. It says they will slay 1/3 of man in a 1 year, 1 month, 1 day and 1 hour time period. I agree there is a lot more going on here too, but it's not midpoint.

I think you have missed it again! Notice it says they "were prepared..." All it says that these angels are prepared for a moment in time. What moment? One hour, that will be a certain hour in one day, and that day will be a certain day in a certain month, and that certain month will be in a certain year. In other words, God knows exactly when they will be needed, as He is Jehovah Jireh, the God that sees ahead of time. John does not tell us how long this event will last. However, please note that he does give us a hint of five months for one of the trumpets. Since six trumpets must be sounded during the first 1260 days this is a very real possibility: each trumpet will last for five months, with a two month repreive to see if men will repent. (They don't.) This would make 7 months from the sounding of one trumpet to the sounding of the next. Hmmm. 6 trumpets times 7 months = 42 months! (the seventh cannot be counted, as it is sounded at the exact midpoint.

All I can tell you is what the HS told me when He sent me to look for the exact midpoint. He said, "If I mention an event that will start at the midpoint, and go to the end, I will mention the 3 1/2 year period. Therefore, when you find mention of this timeframe, it is a hint that you are near the midpoint of the week." What He said to me makes perfect sense to me. An example is the two witness. They will testify for 1260 days. They will show up at the midpoint, and will testify to the end of the week. Therefore, Chapter 11:2 is a good hint that John is very close to the exact midpoint here. The remnant fleeing is another example, as is the 42 months of the beast.

For example, the great battle in the heavenlies will take place during this midpoint, and before any vials can be poured out. And before this great battle, the two witnesses will show up. Actually, all the events from about chapter 10 to chapter 14 take place nearly the same time. It is just that there are so many different events that John must cover, that it takes chapters to do it.

Agreed. I'm glad you see the battle at midpoint, though it does contradict your belief that the 144,000 are sealed at the start of the week. I explained why above.

Whew! (Wipes brow) I am glad to find one point of agreement! :P

This contridiction is only in your mind, not mine, for I know that these are two separate groups, and that the 144,000 are "firstfruits" and are raptured to the throne room near the midpoint, near the same time that the remnant will be fleeing into the wilderness.

The way John wrote the book, it will be impossible for any trumpet to be sounded before all the seals are broken, and it will be impossible for any vial to be poured out before all seven of the trumpets are sounded.

I agree.

Any theory that tries to mix these up is suspect. God wrote this book to reveal, not to confuse! Why would He cause it to be written with "flashbacks" as some modern movie writers do? No, the HS caused John to write events in the exact order that they will take place. Next, there is no real reason to try to "mix things up!" The book makes perfect sense as it is written.

You can't say that for sure. It was common for apocalyptic writers to write in that style. As a matter of fact, John does it again in chapter 21 and maybe in other places I haven't caught yet. Rev 4:1 may be one of thos places.[/quote:ef2fd]

Actually, I know very little except what the HS has shown me. I am not that smart. However, I am convinced that God showed these visions to John exactly as they will play out, to a possible point. For instance, when John is introduced to the two witnesses, he then follows them to their conclusion. It is certain that other events shown by John after these two are introduced, willl take place before they are killed. For example, if then are introduced at the midpoint, as I believe John is telling us, then all of the vials will be poured out before they are killed. Therefore, except for these minor exceptions, the book is chronological to the extreme.

 

[JustifiedByFaith]

... One could find it somewhere in John's midpoint "intermission" which is from chapter 10 to chapter 15.

Coop

I consider it more of a backpedaling, recap and expanding of some of the events found going on during fifth and sixth seal verses.

That's right. One cannot take the chapters in Revelation and say that they are all in order of precise time lines without some bouncing back and forth at least as the Holy Spirit wanted to "amplify" and/or re-introduce certain key events for better clarification to the reader.

 

[lecoop]

... One could find it somewhere in John's midpoint "intermission" which is from chapter 10 to chapter 15.

Coop

I consider it more of a backpedaling, recap and expanding of some of the events found going on during fifth and sixth seal verses.

That's right. One cannot take the chapters in Revelation and say that they are all in order of precise time lines without some bouncing back and forth at least as the Holy Spirit wanted to "amplify" and/or re-introduce certain key events for better clarification to the reader.

If this is the case, then you should have little trouble finding such verses, where the HS has "amplified" or "re-introduced" some event. I would like to discuss such verses.

Coop

 

[JustifiedByFaith]

... One could find it somewhere in John's midpoint "intermission" which is from chapter 10 to chapter 15.

Coop

I consider it more of a backpedaling, recap and expanding of some of the events found going on during fifth and sixth seal verses.

That's right. One cannot take the chapters in Revelation and say that they are all in order of precise time lines without some bouncing back and forth at least as the Holy Spirit wanted to "amplify" and/or re-introduce certain key events for better clarification to the reader.

If this is the case, then you should have little trouble finding such verses, where the HS has "amplified" or "re-introduced" some event. I would like to discuss such verses.

Coop

Dear lecoop,

Example: Revelation Chapter 12 out of sequence being it is (Past). Placed ahead of other chapters which are "yet to come".

 

[Vic C.]

I will agree that the events of Dan 12 are after the abomination event, and therefore will be during the second 1260 days. However, this has nothing to do with the 144,000!

I equated the 144,000 with the Woman in Rev 12. They fit the description. Rev 12 is mid week.

The beast cannot go after us, because we will not be here! However, he will go after those saved after the rapture.

You are teaching Pre-Trib with a twist. Tribulation saints is a myth. We are the remnant of Her seed in the verse below.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

That puts the Great Tribulation at about the midpoint, when professing believers start refusing the Mark and are persecuted for it..

I will agree that after the midpoint will be a time of "great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." What Jesus is saying is no other time of tribulation will equal this time. And I will agree that it will start with the abomination event.

Yup. I am aware of what Jesus meant.

However, this abomination event, as close as John shows us, is in chapter 12 or 13! Please notice this is after the 7th trumpet has sounded, marking the midpoint in heaven.

I agree with your placement of the A of D, but I don't understand why you don't see Rev 12:17 as the Ekklesia. If not the Church, then who are they?

Sorry, I just don't see the seventh trumpet as midpoint at this time. About the end of Rev 11 where I see what you call an intermission and we see it as new revelation of a time previous to the Trumpets. This has been documented if you do some research on the timing of Revelation. It is not a Van Kampen or Rosenthal theory.

We will never see eye to eye on this because of that and the fact that you place some of the seals outside and before the final week. Sorry coop, we just understand things from a different perspective. No harm though, as this is not a salvific issue. :fadein:

 

[lecoop]

... One could find it somewhere in John's midpoint "intermission" which is from chapter 10 to chapter 15.

Coop

I consider it more of a backpedaling, recap and expanding of some of the events found going on during fifth and sixth seal verses.

That's right. One cannot take the chapters in Revelation and say that they are all in order of precise time lines without some bouncing back and forth at least as the Holy Spirit wanted to "amplify" and/or re-introduce certain key events for better clarification to the reader.

If this is the case, then you should have little trouble finding such verses, where the HS has "amplified" or "re-introduced" some event. I would like to discuss such verses.

Coop

Dear lecoop,

Example: Revelation Chapter 12 out of sequence being it is (Past). Placed ahead of other chapters which are "yet to come".

He he! Great! But not so fast! 8-)

Yes, there are some way long past events in this chapter, such as satan being cast out of heaven. However, this is a "sign" and it not part of John's real-time timeline. This whole chapter is about how Satan as the dragon will fit into the end time equation. God added some past tense events to bring the reader's knowledge up to date that Satan had been working to destroy Jesus way back at His birth, and was continuing his battle against God. However, I have continued to say that the exact midpoint is marked by the 7th trumpet. Where is that? Chapter 11. So what will happen (according to Daniel) at the midpoint? The abomination. And what are the people in Jerusalem told to do when they see this event? Jesus told them to flee when they see it, and flee quickly! Does chapter 12 fit here? Of course!

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

This is clearly an event that happens at the midpoint.

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
John repeats the woman fleeing for the 3 1/2 years. Again, clearly an event that takes place at the midpoint. John speaks of the dragon 27 times either using one of his names or a pronoun to refer to him. Why a chapter about the dragon right at the midpoint? Because it is right at the midpoint that he is cast out of the heavenlies, and because he works with the beast in the next chapter. Therefore, God showed the dragon here just before the chapter on the beast. It fits and it is a midpoint chapter.

Coop