Quote by Coop:
>>>Quasar, thanks for posting. You have posted what I call "classic" pretrib, with the rapture at Rev.4:1. All in all, a good post: I just don't think that is what the HS is telling us, even though millions believe it.<<<
Q: Since Jesus, Paul and John all teach us in the Scriptures there will be a pre-trib rapture of the Church, I suppose you might call it "Classic Pre-trib." The HS is teaching us both, but one of us has not been given the gift of prophecy and is unable to see what He is attempting to reveal to that person.
There can be no question that there will be rapture, and we both believe it will be before the 70th week. I have no problem with that. But it is just an imagination that when John was called to heaven, back about 95 AD, that that was suppose to represent the rapture. Sure, God could have shown John, and John could have shown us, exactly where the rapture was in his book. However, God chose not to reveal it. That being the case, then I don't think we should grasp at straws, so to speak, trying to pinpoint what God hid from us. In plain language, this verse is God calling John to heaven - in about 95 AD. If you want to believe that the HS meant more here, that is up to you.
Quote by Coop:
>>> If anyone will answer my questions in the "What Secret Rapture" rapture thread, page two, Sun Aug 06, 2006 4:38 pm: Questions in red and blue for easier finding: we will then go on to discuss the seals and the timing of the seals.<<<
Q: First of all, there will be no 'secret rapture' of the Church. It will be seen and observed by all and the Antichrist will make everyone believe we are the goats, and they are the sheep when it occurs. I will respond to the questions you raised in the thread, "What Secret Rapture," after finishing this post.
I disagree. There will probably be two or three "secret raptures."
Quote by Coop:
>>> I know that millions believe the white horse is to represent the antichrist, but this is fallacy, and when we get into the visions of the throne room, we will see why. Fact: there is not one word in the description of the white horse and rider, nor any of the riders, that should lead anyone to say that this white horse and rider is to represent the antichrist. But we will get into the white horse in depth after someone answers the questions.<<<
Q: The rider on the white horse is the one who triggers the tribulation in Rev.6:2, set for conquest and to conquer, the very same individual referred to as the "he" in Dan.9:27, who "confirms a covenant" with Israel, and the same "he" who breaks the covenant in the midst of the [7 year] week, or after 3.5 years into the tribulation. Also the "abomination that makes desolation" Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15. And the same person Paul refers to as the "man of lawlessness" in 2 Thes.2:3-4 and 8, who IS REVEALED AFTER THE CHURCH HAS BEEN RAPTURED. there is no question as to who the first rider is in Rev.6:2, on the white horse.
So show me some words in his discription that would give you this idea. John used "white" 19 times in the book of Revelation, and every other time, it was to represent righteousness! Why would you even think that this one time would be different? The person you are referring to - the "he" in Daniel - is found in chapter 13, not in chapter 4. You are 2000 years off.
Here is an example:
Revelation 19:11
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
And another:
Revelation 19:8
And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
God has never changed what he has used the color white for, from Genesis to maps. God uses white for righteousness. Therefore, since God showed a white horse in Rev. 4, it was to represent righteousness. Indeed, it can represent nothing else.
Quote by Coop:
>>> Quasar, I will agree with you that there are parallels in the seals and the first part of the Olivet discourse. Once again, millions believe this is speaking of the first half of the week, but they are all in error. Jesus plainly tells us, " the end is not yet." Yes, Jesus was covering the time of the first seals, but if anyone will answer the questions, or at least attempt to, we will cover this in depth. God gives us clues to the timing of the first seals.<<<
Q: I fail to see any relevance to your attempt to determine the middle of the tribulation [The 'week'], except for the fact that is the timing of when the Antichrist reveals his true colors, and by the powers given him by Satan, does everything in his power to disrupt the Supreme Power of God. The first six seals are only an overview of the tribulation, of things that will be explained again later, as John was told he must prophecy again, as an example.
Sorry, but I just don't buy it. I speak of the midpoint, because that is as a lighthouse, or beacon, where we can orient ourselves as to time. There can be no doubt that the abomination will take place very near the midpoint of the week. And we find several hints to that time in chapters 11 -13. Yet even in these threads people want to have the "GT" end long before we get to chapter 11.
Quote by Coop:
>>>Quasar said
Quote:
"In Rev.4:1-2, Jesus made a specific point of John being called up into heaven by a voice that sounds like a trumpet before the tribulation begins, symbolically representing His Church, who are not herd from again until the wedding takes place in Rev.19:7-8".
This sounds good, until someone reads this with an open mind. Let me pose a rhetorical question: Is God not allowed to call anyone to heaven, without people attaching some other meaning to it? Is God not allowed to give visions to John as HE desires? John was taken to heaven, for one part, so that he could see it, and write about it. This is not so unusual. Paul saw it. In out modern day, many have been taken to heaven, just to see it. I could name four or five immediately. Pastor Buck from "angels on Assignment, and Choo Thomas, Dr. Eby, for three examples. Jesus took these people to heaven so that they could write about it. John was no exception: he was told to write what he saw.
Another rhetorical question: Can God help it if His voice sounds like a trumpet? There are many sounds in heaven, but we don't have to get excited when we read that a sound - sounds like a trumpet.
1 Corinthians 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound...
What trumpet?
1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:
Evidently, God is a musician! Yes, Jesus will blow a trumpet. First notice what this does NOT say: it does not say it is His voice, sounding like a trumpet. No, it is a trumpet, not a voice.
So it is just silliness to think that God calling John to heaven is to represent anything other than God calling John to heaven. Why read something into this that isn't here? There is no need. This was God calling John to heaven, so that he could see and write. Nothing else.<<<
Q: That's nothing more than using every attempt to rationalize without answering the question, WHAT WAS JESUS POINT IN WHAT HE DICTATED THROUGH HIS ANGEL TO JOHN, IN Rev.4:1-2, IF IT WAS NOT TO REVEAL HOW HIS CHURCH GOES TO HEAVEN? Where else do you find where the Church is raptured into heaven, since they are not seen anywhere else in Revelation until the Wedding, in Rev.19:7-8. How did the Church get there, then?
There was no point but to get John to heaven! Why does there have to be some hidden meaning? I doubt if God had the church or the rapture of the church on his mind. He was just calling John to heaven, so that he could see and write. If this was to reaveal anything, it was how John got to heaven. To tell you the truth, this kind of bible exegesis gives much "power" to the other groups such as post trib. They all realize how weak this whole idea is. I believe in pre-"trib," but I refuse to stretch scriptures like this to prove it. As I said before, the church is seen again, in chapter 7, but you do not believe that, because of two words: great tribulation." If these two words were not there, even you would say, "Yes! This is the church!"
Of course the church gets there by being raptured. But as I said before, God chose not to reveal the rapture to John. He did not see it happen. He did not write, "then I saw..." so that we could pinpoint it. I believe the great crowd that John saw was the church, having just been raptured. However, John did not see the rapture; only the great crowd in heaven, that no one could number. This would make the rapture perhaps at the same moment as the great earthquake, or perhaps the earthquake in the physical realm is to represent the great shaking the rapture will make in the spiritual realm. But all this is a guess, because John did not say how long they had been there.
Quote by Coop:
>>> Is the church seen again, before Revelation 19? Of course. The great crowd in Rev. 7 is the church, seen by John very shortly after the rapture. Please understand, if those two words were not there: "great tribulation," everyone would accept this great crowd as the church. What I am saying is, don't be misled by these two words! When Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD, it was "great tribulation" for them. Is this too hard to understand? They were so hungry some turned to cannibalism! And in the end, there was no way out but death, for a great many people. Now, if they had believed Jesus, they would have ran, and escaped, as the Apostles did. But they stayed - and died. They were in a time of great tribulation.<<<
Q: The Great Multitude in Rev.7:9-17 is as I stated previously: The first of four PARENTHETICS, and as Jesus dictated in Rev.7:14, THEY ARE THOSE WHO COME OUT OF THE GREAT TRIBULATION, which the Church DOES NOT GO THROUGH. They have nothing whatever to do with the Church. Read my previous post to learn who they are and how they get there. This is the same multitude who participate in the first resurrection, which the Church is not involved in, as found in Rev.20:4-6.
I disagree. How could they have "come out of great tribulation" which you ascribe to the time after the abomination, when that event will not happen for another several chapters, and 3 1/2 years? John is showing us events that must happen just before the day of the Lord will start. Oh, how do you propose that this great crowd got to heaven, since you believe they came out of the 70th week?
Quote by Coop:
>>> When Jesus spoke of the time after the abomination event, he added something to set that time off as unique: "such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.." So there have been many times on earth that people have been in "great tribulation." But this time coming will be greater than them all. Why? Can someone be deader than dead? Can someone be killed twice? What will make this time worse than any other time? What will make it worse than for a Jew in Germany in WW 2? Simply this: it will be like that, (a Jew among the Nazi's) but it will be felt world wide! There will be NO PLACE TO HIDE! So please don't misunderstand what the HS meant by "great tribulation." If you read about the churches, you will see that Jesus said he would throw the church of Thyatira into "great tribulation," unless she repents. Does this mean that God would supernaturally keep those people alive, that read John's words for the first time, so that they could go into that terrible time after the abomination, still future to us? No, of course not! So don't automatically assume, when you read "great tribulation" that it MUST refer to that specific time after the abomination. It doesn't. Tribulation is on the increase, for the church, and will get much worse before we are raptured.<<<
Q: The 70th and final WEEK [Of seven years], of God's decree upon Israel, in which the 69th was fulfilled nearly 2,000 years ago, the entire age of the Church, Jacob's Trouble [Jer.30:7], the tribulation - is fully unfulfilled prophecy - yet to come. There is no way anyone can distort these Scriptures by calling them historic events, or that they have already taken place. That is completely non-Scriptural.
So what you are saying is that Rev. 12, verses 1 & 2 will be still future to us? Will another savior be born, that will rule with a rod if iron? Of course not! These verses are speaking of past tense events, event to John in 95 AD. Any student of history can read the affects of the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th horsemen, and list historic event after historic event that has been happening over the past 2000 years. But there is yet more proof that these seals are history to us.
The seven churches represent the ONE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST from John's time until the present time, through the end of the Church age. They also represent the various peculiarities within the Church through different time frames in which they took/take place.
Quote by Coop:
>>>Quasar said
Quote:
"In the overview of the six seals, with the four horsemen of the apocalypse, in Rev.6, the very first rider on the white horse, vs 2, represents the Antichrist, who triggers the tribulation, as also seen in the Scriptures above."
This is only a theory, and a bad one at best. As I said before, there is not even one word - not even one letter of one word - that would even hint that this first rider is to represent the antichrist! John used "white" seventeen times in his book, and every other one of them was to represent righteousness. It is pure silliness to think that in this one verse, white would represent evil. Is this vision coming from the mind of the antichrist? Only he would color himself white! I can assure you, God is not confused about the antichrist or the devil, and when God colors them, they are fiery red. Once more, if someone will answer the questions on page two of the "What Secret Rapture" thread, we will discuss the timing of these horsemen, and which ones ride together, and which one rides alone.<<<
Q: According to what the Scriptures clearly reveal, which I have already posted twice now, there is no option. The rider on the white horse in Rev.6:2 is the Antichrist. Read the Scriptures I provided for you.
You have yet so show me one word in his description that would give any hint of him being the antichrist. First off, the horse is white, representing rightousness. It is the scripture here in chapter 6, verse 2, that we are concerned about. God has given us only one verse to describe seal one, but it is enough. We know he is to represent righteousness, and we know he will conquer.
Quote by Coop:
>>>Quasar said
Quote:
"The book of Revelation is not in chronological order and there are no less than four parenthetic views of events that are not in chronological order, but are revealed as they were to reinforce another part of the vision Jesus angel gave to John."
I hear this over and over, but no one gives me an example that will stand under scrutiny! Take the first "parenthetic" view, given between the 6th and 7th seal. Quasar would have us believe that John wrote this "to reinforce another part of the vision." Could he please explain what other part? And how this part explains that part?<<<
Q: The PARENTHETIC view of the Great Multitude in Rev.7:9-17, is the result of the efforts of the 144,000 , which takes place over the time frame that God places them on earth, from just before the seventh seal, which contains the seven trumpet judgements, until they are translated in Rev.14:1-5. You are also forgetting that John is only the SCRIBE! The Revelator is Jesus Christ! I "would have you believe" precisely what the Scriptures say!
OK, what does it say?
Rev 7
8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
There is nothing between the sealing and the crowd! That is, nothing but someone's imagination! God shows us nothing, yet you want to believe that this crowd is the result of the sealed 144,000. Again, that is a huge stretch. But since we are here, lets look at this verse:
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Now lets look ahead at the "hurt."
Rev 8:7 The first angel sounded, ...and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
So we see what the "hurt" is referring to is the trumpets. Since we know that the midpoint is in chapters 11-13, we know that these trumpets are sounded in the first 3 1/2 years. So God told the angels that have the power to do this "hurt" to wait until the sealing. It is plain as day, that the 70th week cannot start until this sealing is done. Once the sealing is done, then the week can start.
Coop continues:
>>>On the other hand, I have said before, and it seems to bear repeating, there is only one reason why John broke from his "real-time" time line here, and that is because the vision he was watching did the same thing! He wrote what he saw. Now, why would God interrupt a perfect, chronological time line, for the sealing of the 144,000? The answer is very simple: God will not allow his 144,000 "firstfruits" to enter the 70th week, and the "day of the Lord" before they are sealed! So John sees the sealing take place just exactly when it will take place in our future. You see, one wrong idea (the first horseman) builds an entire building on false premises. Get the timing of the horsemen correct, and this part of the book makes perfect sense: God will not send His firstfruits into the "day of the Lord," without first sealing them for their protection. Then John sees the great crowd. VAn Kampen and Rosenthal did an awesome job of showing us that the 6th seal is the fulfillment of the Joel prophecy, and that the "day of the Lord" is about to start, after the cosmic signs and the great earthquake. Face the facts as presented, folks! The "day of the Lord" starts with the 7th seal! It is also the start of the 70th week. Again, Rosenthal and Van Kampen did a great job of showing that this is where the rapture must take place: just before the 7th seal. It then makes perfect sense that this great crowd without number, is the newly raptured church.
John is so chronological that he MUST break from the seals, and get the 144,000 sealed before the start of the wrath of God, and he MUST show that the church is raptured before the wrath also. As Van Kampen said, it must be on the same day, because that is what Jesus said, when he referred back to the days of Noah. Therefore, it is only a myth that this great multitude are those saved during the 70th week. That would be impossible, for the week has not even started! Then again, if they were, they must have all been put to death, to get from earth to heaven! No, they were not saved during the 70th week, but were raptured before the week even starts.<<<
Q: The seven seals are an overview of the tribulation, leading up to the seven trumpet judgements that are contained in the seventh seal. The 144,000 enter the scene just before the first trumpet judgement. That they are "saved" during the 70th week is ludicrous; who is there on earth to save them? The Church was raptured symbolically in Rev.4:1-2. As I wrote previously, the matter pertaining to the 144,000 is another subject that does not belong on this thread. I will get to it eventually if someone else does not do so before.
They are placed on the earth to preach the eternal Gospel to everyone who is left here on the earth, after the Church has been removed through the rapture. Since it is Israel who must go through the tribulation, God puts Israelites on the earth to save unregenerated Israelites, as well as any and all Gentiles, still left on the earth. When their work is finished, they are translated and God commissions an angel to preach the eternal Gospel in their place, when they are gone!
You do a great job of reading between the lines. Everything you have just said, has no biblical support what-so-ever! It is imagination.
Quote by coop:
>>>Then Quasar adds
Quote:
"The obvious reason for this particular parenthetic view, is to point out the fact that the Great Multitude will be saved through the very efforts of the 144,000 'evangelists, God placed upon the earth, to take the place of the Church, Jesus raptured before the tribulation begins. And the very reason for God placing them here at that time".
Once again, myth builds upon myth. There is not one word or one letter of one word about these 144,000 that would give one hint that they preach the gospel. That is pure ad-libbing - silliness. God tells us that these 144,000 are "firstfruits," meaning that sometime farther future, He will receive the "second" fruits, which will be the remnant.<<<
Q: Your response is all pure opinion without a shred of support to prove your remarks which now start falling into the immature personal attacks when you cannot find the Scriptural support to reinforce your views. For the third time, the subject about the 144,000 is another subject, which it is clear the HS has not yet gotten through to you about. So why not just leave it alone until the subject can be opened to help enlighten you? Nothing about what I have posted about them is myth, anymore than the Scriptures are myth!
So show me the evidence of their preaching the gospel. Show me the evidence that the great crowd is there from their efforts. If you belive it, you MUST have some scriptures to back it up! I am only attacking myths with no biblical support. We all need to be challenged about what we believe, and why we believe it.
Quote by Coop:
>>>Quasar said
Quote:
"The Church therefore, does not go through the tribulation and the term 'saints' used in every instance during the tribulation, refer specifically to those who will be saved during that time frame, and has nothing at all to do with the raptured Church, or they would have been raptured as well."
Finally, I find something I can agree with! I agree here. Hallelujah! <<<
Q: A step in the right direction, at least!
Quote by Coop:
Quasar said
Quote:
"Though the following has nothing to do with any of the above, the mid point of the tribulation, or the 70th week of Daniel, in 9:27, and as seen in Mt.24:15, 3.5 years into the tribulation would be between the seven trumpet judgements and the seven bowl judgements."
Again, I can (almost) agree. I believe the exact midpoint is the 7th trumpet.
Coop
Q: Whatever lights you up, Coop.
Blessings,
Quasar
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