The Absolute and Final Authority for Christians

[Guest]

This is a continuation of a discussion from "The Truth About Tongues" thread.

The bible IS the absolute and final authority, friend.

How do one know the Bible is the absolute and final authority?

 

[follower of Christ]

This is a continuation of a discussion from "The Truth About Tongues" thread.

The bible IS the absolute and final authority, friend.

How do one know the Bible is the absolute and final authority?

2
If you have to ask, you probably wont believe any answer your provided with.

 

[Guest]

If you have to ask, you probably wont believe any answer your provided with.

Okay, then I will understand this to mean you don't have an answer to the question.

Side note: Oops. I noticed my silly grammatical mistake of do when it should be does. Shame on me.

 

[Adullam]

The Holy Spirit must have the final authority. Who wrote the Bible...the Bible?

 

[Anth]

The Holy Spirit must have the final authority.

Thanks - Answer Holy Spirit is correct.

When one says "the Bible" they betray some ignorance of the Bible. None of the great men of God of yesterday had a trusty Thompson Publishing NAS in their back pocket - and they all fully walked with God.

Further, those same people are loathe to admit that their own minds determine what the Bible is and what the Bible says - a notably faillable source for truth....

The Final Authority is sitting in heaven in a glorified body at the right hand of the Creator..... and by His Spirit, He makes known His will to His church....

Best,
Anth

 

[radorth]

The Final Authority is sitting in heaven in a glorified body at the right hand of the Creator..... and by His Spirit, He makes known His will to His church....

Best,
Anth

Heretic!

Bring back the rack! :D

Anth, you almost sound, er, Catholic.

 

[Anth]

Please note that in each of the above verses, the Greek verb exerchomai is used to describe
Jesus' point of origin, prior to His incarnation.

Sir, Catholic indeed!!!

BUT NOT (God forbid) Roman Catholic (whose sole authority, despite pontifications otherwise (no pun intended), sits on a metal chair in Rome and is drapped with a bunch of rotting garments....not much hope there is there?).

Best,
Anth

 

[duval]

Jesus in Matt.28:18 said He has all authority in heaven and earth. I Cor.15:24--28 reveals the duration.

God bless,
duval

 

[Anth]

Jesus in Matt.28:18 said He has all authority in heaven and earth.

See post at 6:05PM.... :amen

 

[stranger]

Please note that in each of the above verses, the Greek verb exerchomai is used to describe
Jesus' point of origin, prior to His incarnation.

Sir, Catholic indeed!!!

BUT NOT (God forbid) Roman Catholic (whose sole authority, despite pontifications otherwise (no pun intended), sits on a metal chair in Rome and is drapped with a bunch of rotting garments....not much hope there is there?).

Best,
Anth

Hi Anth,

In the following texts is there any evidence of an authority structure in the Kingdom of God? I have highlighted sections in bold from each passage.

Matthew 16:18-19

18"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.
19"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."

Isaiah 22:19-25 and
19"I will depose you (Shebna see v 15-18) from your office,
And I will pull you down from your station.
20"Then it will come about in that day,
That I will summon My servant Eliakim the son of Hilkiah,
21And I will clothe him with your tunic
And tie your sash securely about him.
I will entrust him with your authority,
And he will become a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah.
22"Then I will set the key of the house of David on his shoulder,
When he opens no one will shut,
When he shuts no one will open.
23"I will drive him like a peg in a firm place,
And he will become a throne of glory to his father's house.
24"So they will hang on him all the glory of his father's house, offspring and issue, all the least of vessels, from bowls to all the jars.
25"In that day," declares the LORD of hosts, "the peg driven in a firm place will give way; it will even break off and fall, and the load hanging on it will be cut off, for the LORD has spoken."

The prophesy of Is22 is a double edged sword. What do you think? Is the key to the house of David the keys to the Kingdom of heaven?

blessings

 

[Anth]

Stranger -

Good texts - what Jesus spoke to Peter (presuming that we have a fairly decent text...) has never been fully resolved in my mind. However, I look to texts such as Jn 20 where Jesus gives His followers the ability to remit/retain sins (how cool is that!!!) as well as other text where other follower were given various binding/loosening.

I suspect, based on my reading of the entire set of scripture, what Jesus gave to Peter here was merely a speciman of what He has given to all of us.

Best,
Anth

 

[Cornelius]

God will never contradict His Word. The Holy Spirit will always speak in line with the Word too, because that is why "God is one" ...He is always in agreement with Himself. Jesus is the result of God's Words. He is a pure manifestation of the unseen God. The exact representation.The Holy Spirit is the spirit of God. They are all in agreement, they are all one.

The Bible is not just a book full of letters, but it is alive. You hold in your hand, a perfect "agreement" with all that God is and says.One day Christians will realize what we have been given in the form a book.

Psa 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, And give thanks unto thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: For thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

 

[stranger]

Stranger -

Good texts - what Jesus spoke to Peter (presuming that we have a fairly decent text...) has never been fully resolved in my mind. However, I look to texts such as Jn 20 where Jesus gives His followers the ability to remit/retain sins (how cool is that!!!) as well as other text where other follower were given various binding/loosening.

I suspect, based on my reading of the entire set of scripture, what Jesus gave to Peter here was merely a speciman of what He has given to all of us.

Best,
Anth

Hi Anth,

Each passage in its context. The power to bind and loose occurs in other contexts and was shared by more than one Apostle, and has broader but maybe not universal application in the body of Christ.

In the context of Is 22 and Matt 16 the power to bind/loose and open/shut is mentioned with the key(s). The key to the house of David and the authority that came with it was given to the office bearer choosen (or preceding one rejected!) by God Himself. What was an OT type 'the key to the house of David' was fulfiled in Matt 16's keys to the Kingdom of Heaven. So there is something unique about the authority/office/ position God entrusted directly to a choosen and qualified individuals. Were these keys given to John, James, or Paul? No - they were given to Peter.

If Matt 16:18,19 is viewed as a standalone passage - it is hard to make sense of it. When taken together with Isa 22 it makes more sense. But this is not the end of the story - there were tweleve Apostles and the book of Revelation depicts the twelve tribes of Istrael (and twelve thrones?) so how does all this fit together?

I think it is clear that from where we stand, there is much authority and structure in the Kingdom of God before we even get to the throne of God. This view of the Kingdom of God would be in conflict with many who would sweep aside all authority and structure between God and his people. This is not to be viewed as a wedge between God and His people somehow obscuring the view or preventing that direct access to God through Jesus Christ. Image a country with a King and no adminstration or government - chaos.

blessings

 

[Cornelius]

The keys and the binding and loosing is only to Christ in us.. We as Christians are "dead to self" so that Christ can live in and through us.

Ultimately its the use of the words of our lips that binds or loose things. As we speak the Word of God , or as we speak what we see in the natural. These two things will either bind or loose things in this world. That is they way that many miracles will happen: through our words, which obviously reflects what we ultimately believe. In other words, we say what we believe and the Bible tells us that has power.Jas 1:26 If any man thinketh himself to be religious, while he bridleth not his tongue but deceiveth his heart, this man's religion is vain. Our tongue is important.

1Pe 3:10 For, He that would love life, And see good days, Let him refrain his tongue from evil, And his lips that they speak no guile: Your tongue will either bind or loose . You can even bind blessing by speaking against it. But if we start speaking the Word of God in all situations, we loose God's blessings in us, because we are in agreement with Him.

How shall two walk together unless they agree, the Bible says. Well that is true about us and God too. We cannot walk with Him if we do not agree with His Word.

C

 

[stranger]

The keys and the binding and loosing is only to Christ in us.. We as Christians are "dead to self" so that Christ can live in and through us.

Ultimately its the use of the words of our lips that binds or loose things. As we speak the Word of God , or as we speak what we see in the natural. These two things will either bind or loose things in this world. That is they way that many miracles will happen: through our words, which obviously reflects what we ultimately believe. In other words, we say what we believe and the Bible tells us that has power.Jas 1:26 If any man thinketh himself to be religious, while he bridleth not his tongue but deceiveth his heart, this man's religion is vain. Our tongue is important.

1Pe 3:10 For, He that would love life, And see good days, Let him refrain his tongue from evil, And his lips that they speak no guile: Your tongue will either bind or loose . You can even bind blessing by speaking against it. But if we start speaking the Word of God in all situations, we loose God's blessings in us, because we are in agreement with Him.

How shall two walk together unless they agree, the Bible says. Well that is true about us and God too. We cannot walk with Him if we do not agree with His Word.

C

Cornelius,

The keys to the Kingdom of God were not given to everyone in Christ, but only to one individual in Christ. I agree that there is a generally applicable sense of all believers binding and loosing, but I don't think it is universal in practice even if it were universal in theory.

But I think more is intended when binding/loosing opening/closing is mentioned in conjunction with the keys. There is something significant here about what Peter is entrusted with.

blessings

 

[francisdesales]

This is a continuation of a discussion from "The Truth About Tongues" thread.

[quote="follower of Christ":2irnlctv]The bible IS the absolute and final authority, friend.

How do one know the Bible is the absolute and final authority?

2
If you have to ask, you probably wont believe any answer your provided with.[/quote:2irnlctv]

I believe Minnesota asks a legitimate question, since your "answer" is a circular argument. To avoid that logical fallacy, one must seek something outside the Bible to prove that it is the Word of God. There is no use in "begging the question" by claiming "the Bible is the Word of God because the Word of God is found in the Bible" as your "answer".

We believe that the bible is the Word of God because of the witness of other people have told us and we believe them. These people, we will call "the Church".

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Further, those same people are loathe to admit that their own minds determine what the Bible is and what the Bible says - a notably faillable source for truth....

The Final Authority is sitting in heaven in a glorified body at the right hand of the Creator..... and by His Spirit, He makes known His will to His church....

Best,
Anth

Couldn't have said it better, although, no doubt, we interpret your words differently (which should tell you something about authority in the Church).

Regards

 

[Anth]

Stranger,

Some interesting thoughts my friend - I wish I had the time to dig deeper but I do not at this time.

May I throw one tidbit your way?

Rev 2,3 shows a beautiful picture of the post - apostolic church structure. You will note a couple items

1. There were 7 (yes, SEVEN) churches. NOT one institutional church.

2. There was NO interlocking structure between them OTHER THAN the Son of Man who was walking among them.

3. There was NO other authority other than the Angel to each church and the Son of Man.

Additionally - as a counter to the interpretation of the Matt passage - we see the New Jerusalem has 12 (yes, TWELVE) foundation stones - all equal - NOT one Petrine stone. No one apostle was above another with respect to the church at large.

I would suggest there is much more to this passage (assuming that we have a bona - fide scriptural text in the first place). Unfortunately I do not have time to do this justice.

Nevertheless, I will go back and review the texts that you have posted at some point - and see I can nibble on them a bit and whether I can move forward at all.

Thanks for your pleasant spirit - and effort to understand the Word of God!

Best,
In Him,
Anth

 

[follower of Christ]

I believe Minnesota asks a legitimate question, since your "answer" is a circular argument.

As tho I should be surprised to see a bible bashing catholic take such a stance :nag
You can give the circular thing a rest...Im not impressed by that sort of nonsense.
Gods word IS the final authority on matters of doctrine. Either you accept that fact or you do not. Either way its not my problem.

To avoid that logical fallacy, one must seek something outside the Bible to prove that it is the Word of God.

Riiiight :D
Do you honestly believe that we care that catholics see anything we believe as an illogical ?
*I* believe that GOD preserved His word. I believe it because He causes me to believe it.

We believe that the bible is the Word of God because of the witness of other people have told us and we believe them. These people, we will call "the Church".
Regards

Now PROVE that those witnesses werent lying.
Since you CANT your logic is as fallacious as anyone elses.

*I* believe the scriptures are the word of God BECAUSE I read it and His Spirit witnesses with my spirit that it IS His truth.



.

 

[Guest]

I believe Minnesota asks a legitimate question, since your "answer" is a circular argument.

Indeed. I am happy to see someone else recognizes this beyond myself.