The Absolute and Final Authority for Christians

[francisdesales]

The Bible (I am addressing the NT only when I say "Bible" here) is not self-authenticating.

1Th 2:13 And for this cause we also thank God without ceasing, that, when ye received from us the word of the message, even the word of God, ye accepted it not as the word of men, but, as it is in truth, the word of God, which also worketh in you that believe.

So the message that Paul brought to them, was not the message or word of men, but in truth, it was the Word of God. This message , the Word of God was taught by Jesus (The Word of God) and was taken by the apostles to the people. This Word of God is now only working in those who believe (that it is the Word of God)

Thanks for making my point, Cornelius.

People believe that the Bible is the Word of God because MEN SAID SO...

Got it?

 

[follower of Christ]

Then put your money where your mouth is and point out the inspired verses that the New Testament is the Word of God.

Put your money where YOUR mouth is and PROVE that its not.
ARE YOU CLAIMING LACK OF INSPIRATION BY GOD WITH THE WRITERS IN THE SCRIPTURES (the bible, not the book of mormon) ??

PROVE IT WITHOUT RESORTING TO CIRCULAR ARGUMENT!

We BOTH know that there is NO response given here that you arent going to claim is circular ...Where FAITH is concerned logic is often irrelevant.
The letters of Paul and other INSPIRED writers, whose writings were gathered together by the CATHOLIC church no less, were compiled into ONE volume of INSPIRED writings for instruction to His church. The words of those letters BEING INSPIRED of God means it is GODS word.

The rest, I'll ignore, since it is just your petty attempts to change the subject away from your sad circular argument.

Or more likely its that your rejection of GODS word has been exposed for what it is....a fallible mans attempt to take the INSPIRED word of the living GOD out of the picture for whatever reason.

Can you tell us, FD, just WHY you find it necessary to prove that the bible ISNt the word of God ?
All the logic and other tripe aside....WHAT is so important about this point that you feel to prove that the bible ISNT 'Gods word'....honestly now ?

All you can do is toss around snide remarks. In your "attitude of Christ" mentality, all you can do is utilize ad hominem - immediately, as usual with you - and pretend the question is no longer on the table. What would Jesus do, indeed...

Ditto...
And apparently what you also offer is REJECTION of Gods INSPIRED word.
We TRUST God that the LETTERS and historical accounts in the scriptures WERE INSPIRED and that He gathered them together thru man. If some cannot that is their own problem.

 

[follower of Christ]

Thanks for making my point, Cornelius.

People believe that the Bible is the Word of God because MEN SAID SO...

Got it?

Sorry but that is WRONG.

"people' SAY that the koran is the word of 'god'.
"people" SAY that the mormon writings are 'inspired'
"People" SAY all sorts of things so if FAITH is based on what 'people' say then we should ALL be some New Age, 'all paths lead to god' acolytes who believe that when 'people SAY' that something is 'gods word' that it IS.

What 'people' have said is IRRELEVANT. 'People' have SAID all sorts of things that are heresies and pointed to writings of those inspired by madness and demons.
We BELIEVE that Gods word IS His word because we have FAITH (given by Him) that the BIBLE is HIS word of instruction to His people.

 

[Guest]

PROVE IT WITHOUT RESORTING TO CIRCULAR ARGUMENT!

Fallacious reasoning is inconsequential to the view being countered. Often, those who seek to defend their brand of faith against another resort to constructing walls which are impervious to reason or renounce reason when convenient. My suggestion is to state your case and bow out.

 

[follower of Christ]

PROVE IT WITHOUT RESORTING TO CIRCULAR ARGUMENT!

Fallacious reasoning is inconsequential to the view being countered. Often, those who seek to defend their brand of faith against another resort to constructing walls which are impervious to reason or renounce reason when convenient. My suggestion is to state your case and bow out.

You mean the brand of faith from GODS word ('scripture') that says things like we MUST believe and IF we doubt we shouldnt expect anything from Him...THAT brand of faith ? Because THAT brand of faith is BIBLICAL, GODLY faith...unlike this halfhearted sort that some here think they can push on those of us who know better that doesnt know what it believes...or IF it believes...

 

[follower of Christ]

*IF* those who call themselves 'Christian' cannot agree even 80% of the time when we HAVE written instruction for the church, how on earth would the church look today WITHOUT the written word.

What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
(Rom 3:1-2 KJV)

And it is the same under this new covenant. Gods oracles (words) were given and entrusted to men who RECORDED those words for present and future generations. That is what we see in our bibles. Gods word that was entrusted to man, preserved by God Himself.

We have SOME agreement among us because we have GODS word to compare to. Even if we dont agree on every single word MOST of us agree on the basics of the faith. We have the WRITTEN word so that we dont have to question these basics. Its all there in writing for all of us to SEE for ourselves. Just as God intended it.

 

[francisdesales]

PROVE IT WITHOUT RESORTING TO CIRCULAR ARGUMENT!

Fallacious reasoning is inconsequential to the view being countered. Often, those who seek to defend their brand of faith against another resort to constructing walls which are impervious to reason or renounce reason when convenient. My suggestion is to state your case and bow out.

It is evident that you are correct. It is plain to see that "follower of Christ" is not about to defend his point of view with any legitimate arguments - but rather resort to name calling and simple denial of any illogic in his very argument. Thus, I will take your suggestion, since I do not have any time to waste with the likes of "follower", who cannot accept the simple fact that the Bible is not self-authenticating.

We know the Bible is the Word of God based upon the witness of men. Men told us they have preached the Word of God and we believe it. There is no logical, mathematical argument that is self-evident that the Christian Bible, to the exclusion of other "scriptures", IS the Word of God. To say anything else is to beg the question.

If anyone actually wants to continue this discussion intellectually, please offer to do so by PM'ing me and I will debate you. Otherwise, I will let the Bible speak for itself - or its SILENCE on whether it is the Word of God.

Thus, the answer to the theme of the thread is NOT a book, since the book is not self-authenticating, nor does it claim to BE the Word of God. WE (the Church) claim it to be the Word of God... One either believes the Church or not.

Regards

 

[Aero_Hudson]

I think God gave us logic and critical thinking skills for a reason. Thousands of scholars for hundreds of years have been reviewing the OT and NT to validate and authenticate it. I agree with many that we would be foolish to just accept the Bible as the word of God without in the least some personal introspection and at the most validation from scholars, philosophers and the like. This method can only help us in our beliefs and make them that much stronger.

One book I loved that went into quite a bit of detail in reviewing the Gospels in an attempt to invalidate / validate them is "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel. Excellent book that takes very logical approach to reviewing these books. Very compelling and only strengthened my belief in God and Jesus Christ all without resorting to a "because the Bible says so" arguement which is indeed circular.

 

[francisdesales]

I think God gave us logic and critical thinking skills for a reason. Thousands of scholars for hundreds of years have been reviewing the OT and NT to validate and authenticate it. I agree with many that we would be foolish to just accept the Bible as the word of God without in the least some personal introspection and at the most validation from scholars, philosophers and the like. This method can only help us in our beliefs and make them that much stronger.

One book I loved that went into quite a bit of detail in reviewing the Gospels in an attempt to invalidate / validate them is "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel. Excellent book that takes very logical approach to reviewing these books. Very compelling and only strengthened my belief in God and Jesus Christ all without resorting to a "because the Bible says so" arguement which is indeed circular.

This is the proper approach to take when coming to the Scriptures. God gave us reason and we don't have to be "tricked" against logic that the Bible is the Word of God. Because it is an argument based on faith does not mean it is without reasoned thought. The problem with many Christians today is that they feel that one must leave their mind at the door when they enter the pew. Let it not be so! Since God is the author of truth, He doesn't need to trick us, nor do we have to separate faith from reason in ascertaining God's revelation.

The fact remains that it is MEN whom God works through to give us His revelation. MEN whom God has guided, not only to write Scriptures, but to identify and witness to these Scriptures. To interpret them and teach others how to live the life that God desires us to live, so that we may attain eternal happiness with Him in heaven.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Thanks for making my point, Cornelius.

People believe that the Bible is the Word of God because MEN SAID SO...

Got it?

Sorry but that is WRONG.

"people' SAY that the koran is the word of 'god'.
"people" SAY that the mormon writings are 'inspired'
"People" SAY all sorts of things so if FAITH is based on what 'people' say then we should ALL be some New Age, 'all paths lead to god' acolytes who believe that when 'people SAY' that something is 'gods word' that it IS.

What 'people' have said is IRRELEVANT. 'People' have SAID all sorts of things that are heresies and pointed to writings of those inspired by madness and demons.
We BELIEVE that Gods word IS His word because we have FAITH (given by Him) that the BIBLE is HIS word of instruction to His people.

So do Muslims, Mormons, etc...

The Bible is the Word of God because Christians believe the witness of men, not because God comes down and clarifies things for "us", while leading Mormons and Muslims into error. Men make claims. Other men can believe or disbelieve those claims. Paul's own audience were left with the very same choice. The Bible is not self-authenticating. It being the Word of God is not based upon logic found within its covers, but the witness and claims of men. Pure and simple.

It is the Church that vouches for the Bible and its content, not the Bible... Thus, the "Word of God is the bible because the Bible is the Word of God" is a foolish and illogical argument. The Bible, quite ironically, vouches for the Church, not itself...

 

[follower of Christ]

It is evident that you are correct. It is plain to see that "follower of Christ" is not about to defend his point of view with any legitimate arguments - but rather resort to name calling and simple denial of any illogic in his very argument.

Thats pretty funny, poster, seeing that we BOTH know that there is no evidence other than the one piece youve demanded, that you will accept.

When my wife WRITES me a letter, I suppose by your ridiculous 'logic' (yours, that is, it is no logic at all) that *IF* she for what reason doesnt say 'this is Lauras Words', and doesnt sign it "Laura's Word', then your absurd reasoning would have to say that it ISNT her words at all.
Presposterous.

The EVIDENCE within the letter itself is what PROVES that it is her word whether an exact phrase 'Laura's Words' is present or not.
Its pitiful that someone is unable to comprehend this concept. But the motivation is quite clear.

We know the Bible is the Word of God based upon the witness of men.
Men told us they have preached the Word of God and we believe it.

Fallacious reasoning.
MEN have given 'witness' to MANY documents saying they are 'gods'...by your logic we have to accept ALL of those as being genuine as well.

There is no logical, mathematical argument that is self-evident that the Christian Bible, to the exclusion of other "scriptures", IS the Word of God.

FAITH in a God whom we cannot see isnt based on fallible MANS logic.
FAITH in God is something that HE gives and then grows to maturity in man who pursues it wholeheartedly.
Those who have not...HAVE not.

To say anything else is to beg the question.

Pitiful attempt.
To say anything else is merely to disagree with faithlessness.

If anyone actually wants to continue this discussion intellectually, please offer to do so by PM'ing me and I will debate you. Otherwise, I will let the Bible speak for itself - or its SILENCE on whether it is the Word of God.

See the former statement. My wifes letter DOESNT have to say 'Lauras Words' for me to read it and see the evidence within the letter itself that it IS her word.

The bible shows VERY clear evidence that the letters WERE 'inspired' by GOD, thus they ARE the 'words' of GOD.

Thus, the answer to the theme of the thread is NOT a book, since the book is not self-authenticating, nor does it claim to BE the Word of God.

When it shows that it IS 'INSPIRED' by the Spirit of God, it most definitely lays claim to BEING the WORD of God.

WE (the Church) claim it to be the Word of God... One either believes the Church or not.

Regards

You dont think its easy enough to see what you are trying to do, poster ?
Im not ignorant. I can SEE that this is about pushing the authority of the "CHURCH' and what she demands or instructs.
Sorry but we trust GOD, not men who make up rules as they go along.

and to what 'church' do you refer ? Do I need to ask ?
To what 'church' does the bible 'belong' if you care to respond.

 

[follower of Christ]

I THOUGHT you and I were done here ?

The Bible is the Word of God because Christians believe the witness of men, not because God comes down and clarifies things for "us",

Huh...so your belief is that God has not come down and clarified for us, then ?
I guess the Spirit of Truth has NOT come unto us according to your church, then ?

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth... (Joh 16:13 KJV)

His Spirit HAS come down and IS within the BELIEVER and DOES impart a measure of FAITH without which NO man even comes to the Father.

Men make claims. Other men can believe or disbelieve those claims.

And many are led astray by demons, given over to their delusion, which God is quite capable of.

Are you denying, poster, that the FATHER must draw us in order for us to come to the Son ?

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
(Joh 6:44 KJV)

Without the FATHER drawing we CANNOT even come to Christ.
Without that drawing NO MAN CAN BELIEVE !
We BELIEVE because of GOD, not because of man.
If it werent for the Fathers drawing us ALL of us would be lost in unbelief.

Paul's own audience were left with the very same choice. The Bible is not self-authenticating.

The bible is most definitely self authenticating to one with the Spirit of God whom CONFIRMS that it is His word.

It being the Word of God is not based upon logic found within its covers,

Really ?
So passages that SAY that GOD is speaking thru the mouths of the prophets, such as Moses, and ones that show that the Spirit has inspired the letter are meaningless drivel then ?
Figures...

but the witness and claims of men. Pure and simple.

Fallacious.

It is the Church that vouches for the Bible and its content, not the Bible...

While the church DOES 'vouch' for the bible (of those that actually DO), it is ONLY because the God draws them to come to Christ and gives them a measure of faith, without which we either remain in unbelief or are at best MAKE-believers.

Thus, the "Word of God is the bible because the Bible is the Word of God" is a foolish and illogical argument.

Not to those who truly have His Spirit whom CONFIRMS His word to the reader.
It is only foolishness to those who dont have His Spirit.

The Bible, quite ironically, vouches for the Church, not itself...

Fallacious nonsense.
My wifes letter does Not have to use the exact phrase 'Lauras Word' in order to BE her word. The evidence inside that letter is enough to show that it is.
With GODS word we have even more because HIS Spirit confirms His word to those who have His Spirit endwelling them...


Are we done yet, or do we have to do this 600 more times ?

 

[Cornelius]

The Holy Spirit must have the final authority.

And how do we know what the Holy Spirit is saying? Thousands of people proclaim that the HS told them to do this or that. What the Spirit supposedly told them contradicts what He told someone else.

So the Holy Spirit as the final authority seems pretty subjective.

The Bible as he final authority is also greatly dependent on interpretation --- and that is pretty subjective.

What, then, can be the final authority?

The Bible has a system by which we can check every doctrine. You can take something as doctrine if you have two "witnesses" (scriptures) that agrees as to a matter.

Deu 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall a matter be established.

even THIS matter

2Co 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. At the mouth of two witnesses or three shall every word be established.

 

[Cornelius]

The Bible (I am addressing the NT only when I say "Bible" here) is not self-authenticating.

1Th 2:13 And for this cause we also thank God without ceasing, that, when ye received from us the word of the message, even the word of God, ye accepted it not as the word of men, but, as it is in truth, the word of God, which also worketh in you that believe.

So the message that Paul brought to them, was not the message or word of men, but in truth, it was the Word of God. This message , the Word of God was taught by Jesus (The Word of God) and was taken by the apostles to the people. This Word of God is now only working in those who believe (that it is the Word of God)

Thanks for making my point, Cornelius.

People believe that the Bible is the Word of God because MEN SAID SO...

Got it?

Sorry , you are wrong again. Its in the Bible, so the Bible says it is the Word of God.

 

[follower of Christ]

I think God gave us logic and critical thinking skills for a reason. Thousands of scholars for hundreds of years have been reviewing the OT and NT to validate and authenticate it. I agree with many that we would be foolish to just accept the Bible as the word of God without in the least some personal introspection and at the most validation from scholars, philosophers and the like. This method can only help us in our beliefs and make them that much stronger.

One book I loved that went into quite a bit of detail in reviewing the Gospels in an attempt to invalidate / validate them is "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel. Excellent book that takes very logical approach to reviewing these books. Very compelling and only strengthened my belief in God and Jesus Christ all without resorting to a "because the Bible says so" arguement which is indeed circular.

And there is a LOT of history we see to help validate what we believe.
I often like to look over things like the history of the Jews because when one examines the Hebrew people it almost seems like some 'force' has been at work trying to destroy that group for some unknown reason. Men such as Hitler who frankly had no REAL reason to try to destroy them other than his own delusional racism. He COULD have simply had them sent out of the land and into some other countries, but instead chose to try to exterminate them.
When *I* see things like this it causes me to see a spiritual war going on....a war that very much agrees with what I see in scripture that has had many casualties.

But my FAITH in God comes firstly FROM God.
No man CAN come unto the Son without firstly the Father drawing him. The CORE of our faith in God IS God the Father Himself.

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
(Joh 6:44 KJV)

God gives each of us a measure of faith (Rom 12:3) and then we either cultivate that faith into what He will help it become, or we allow MANS reasoning and "logic" to stifle its growth and in doing so end up believing only because MAN says so.

I read your other post in the other thread and I have to say I agree with you completely because I know as a younger believer you are still learning much about faith and our God.
That faith in Him WILL grow, remember when Peter was young in the faith (~3 years with Christ) he even denied Christ.
Your faith WILL grow as long as you do not let MAN stifle it.

 

[follower of Christ]

Sorry , you are wrong again. Its in the Bible, so the Bible says it is the Word of God.

Agreed....just looking at only of the law of Moses we can CLEARLY see the plain evidence that the bible IS the word of God..

The Law of Moses IS the Law of God.
by wm tipton

Assertions/Conclusions of this Article
To show that the law of Moses is indeed given to man by God Himself thru Moses.

Supporting Evidence
1.0

Leviticus
[quote:3u4ffv94]And that ye may teach the children of Israel all the statutes which the LORD hath spoken unto them by the hand of Moses.
(Lev 10:11 KJV)

And the LORD called unto Moses, and spake unto him out of the tabernacle of the congregation, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the LORD, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock.
(Lev 1:1-2 KJV)

And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them:
(Lev 4:1-2 KJV)

And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, If a soul sin, and commit a trespass against the LORD, and lie unto his neighbour in that which was delivered him to keep, or in fellowship, or in a thing taken away by violence, or hath deceived his neighbour;
(Lev 6:1-2 KJV)
And Moses did as the LORD commanded him; and the assembly was gathered together unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
(Lev 8:4 KJV)

And the LORD spake unto Moses and to Aaron, saying unto them, Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, These are the beasts which ye shall eat among all the beasts that are on the earth.
(Lev 11:1-2 KJV)

And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean.
(Lev 12:1-2 KJV)

And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, saying, When a man shall have in the skin of his flesh a rising, a scab, or bright spot, and it be in the skin of his flesh like the plague of leprosy; then he shall be brought unto Aaron the priest, or unto one of his sons the priests:
(Lev 13:1-2 KJV)

And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, This shall be the law of the leper in the day of his cleansing: He shall be brought unto the priest:
(Lev 14:1-2 KJV)

And the LORD spake unto Moses and to Aaron, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When any man hath a running issue out of his flesh, because of his issue he is unclean.
(Lev 15:1-2 KJV)

Exodus

And Jehovah said to Moses, Come up to Me in the mountain, and be there. And I will give you tablets of stone, and the Law, and commandments which I have written, so that you may teach them.
(Exo 24:12 MKJV)

Numbers...

And the LORD spake unto Moses in the wilderness of Sinai, in the tabernacle of the congregation, on the first day of the second month, in the second year after they were come out of the land of Egypt, saying, Take ye the sum of all the congregation of the children of Israel, after their families, by the house of their fathers, with the number of their names, every male by their polls;
(Num 1:1-2 KJV)

Deuteronomy...

And it came to pass in the fortieth year, in the eleventh month, on the first day of the month, that Moses spake unto the children of Israel, according unto all that the LORD had given him in commandment unto them;
(Deu 1:3 KJV)

1 Kings

And keep the charge of Jehovah your God, to walk in His ways, to keep His statutes, and His commandments, and His judgments, and His testimonies, as it is written in the Law of Moses, so that you may prosper in all that you do and wherever you turn yourself,
(1Ki 2:3 MKJV)

2.0
An interesting one that shows that GOD Jehovah DID give this commandment from Deut TO Moses...

And it happened when the kingdom was confirmed in his hand, he killed his servants who had slain his father the king; But he did not kill the sons of the servants, according to that which is written in the Book of the Law of Moses, in which Jehovah commanded, saying, The fathers shall not be put to death for the sons, nor shall the sons be put to death for the fathers, but each shall be put to death for his own sin.
(2Ki 14:5-6 MKJV)

What the law said...

The fathers shall not be put to death for the sons, neither shall the sons be put to death for the fathers. Every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
(Deu 24:16 MKJV)

Quite apparently God DID give Deuteronomy and all the instruction therein TO Moses ....
His word proves that fact.[/quote:3u4ffv94]

 

[Cornelius]

The Bible is the lamp to our feet, not any Church-authority. We are never told to follow a church.

The closest this scripture comes to mentioning the "Church" is the mention of a Nun.

Psa 119:105 Nun. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, And light unto my path.

 

[follower of Christ]

The Bible is the lamp to our feet, not any Church-authority. We are never told to follow a church.

The closest this scripture comes to mentioning the "Church" is the mention of a Nun.

Psa 119:105 Nun. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, And light unto my path.

What worries me about following 'the church' is that 'the church' can be any group of people SAYING anything they want to say.
We ALL can think of some insane group out there claiming the name of Christ, teaching things that arent true, whom we should avoid like the Black Death.
*IF* we believed because of groups like this and their claims, then our faith is based on the words of MEN rather than GOD.

Its very clear that some here are simply pushing 'church authority', making it so one has to run to that church for answers rather than God.
While that may have been the process when we had NO written New Testament, we can ALL check against that written word for matters of doctrine to see if what is being pushed is accurate or not....just as Paul commended the Bereans for when they checked the scriptures (OT, obviously) to see if what was being said were true.
Yet today we find many casting doubt on the word of God in an attempt to remove its authority so that we will follow them regardless of what godless error they may push.

 

[Cornelius]

The Bible is the lamp to our feet, not any Church-authority. We are never told to follow a church.

The closest this scripture comes to mentioning the "Church" is the mention of a Nun.

Psa 119:105 Nun. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, And light unto my path.

What worries me about following 'the church' is that 'the church' can be any group of people SAYING anything they want to say.
We ALL can think of some insane group out there claiming the name of Christ, teaching things that arent true, whom we should avoid like the Black Death.
*IF* we believed because of groups like this and their claims, then our faith is based on the words of MEN rather than GOD.

Its very clear that some here are simply pushing 'church authority', making it so one has to run to that church for answers rather than God.
While that may have been the process when we had NO written New Testament, we can ALL check against that written word for matters of doctrine to see if what is being pushed is accurate or not....just as Paul commended the Bereans for when they checked the scriptures (OT, obviously) to see if what was being said were true.
Yet today we find many casting doubt on the word of God in an attempt to remove its authority so that we will follow them regardless of what godless error they may push.

Its because they get conditioned from a young age and also gets taught that its wrong to question the authority that is over them, so fear stops them from seeing the truth. They cannot tell you what "the Word" is in reality, it is an abstract thought to them. They might say "It is Jesus" but that is where it ends.Although some new groups have gone further with "the voice in my ear is the Word " (Heaven forbid)

C

 

[Guest]

Its in the Bible, so the Bible says it is the Word of God.

Without an external source to establish the Bible as the Word of God, what the Bible says doesn't help.

I, Thor, am the only god who exists. You must worship me. If you refuse you will burn in a fiery lake. And, yes, these are my own words.

It's in The Sacred Word of Thor, so The Sacred Word of Thor says it's the word of Thor. Why do you choose to not worship Thor? (Yes, it's silly. But, I am making a point about circular reasoning.)

Take another consideration. Why do we use identification cards and passports today? It's because these provide an authoritative source outside of ourselves to verify we are who we claim to be.

You see, we're not opposing the Bible. We're opposing circular reasoning. We're opposing illogic. And, I presume francisdesales would agree, we have no issues with the Bible being God's Word. We simply realize it cannot serve as the basis to establish itself as itself.