The Atheist Asks

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Yes, I get that Jesus said he was the Messiah. ...But none of that has anything to do with this oneness principle that is being discussed here, as far as I can tell.
It is normally understood that we share the divine nature because Jesus had that divine nature with the authority to share it with us. So there is the giver and there are those who receive the gift.

It is the oneness of God with the Father that gives him the authority to share with us the divine nature that enables us to share in the divine nature, though not in the divine identity. That goes without saying.

It is understood and presumed in the saying about oneness that we share with God. God has to give it to us. And God is doing it through His only Son.
I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one."

"I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one..."


What Jesus is claimed to have said by John is that "they may be one AS WE ARE ONE. He didn't expound upon how our being one was any different than the oneness relationship between God and the Father.
He didn't have to expound upon the difference between divine Messiah and human recipients of God's grace. It was understood and presupposed.

If we receive something by grace, we are purely humans. If it is given by the Son of God he must be the divine source of this gift.
Now, we are all free to take that as we see it, but these are the actual words that Jesus spoke according to many, many, many translators of the Scriptures. Were they wrong? Should there have been some addendum to that oneness to explain that he wasn't really asking the Father to give us the same relationship that he has regarding the oneness that God and Jesus share?
No, there need be no addendum to explain that the divine Son must give, by grace, to strictly humans who receive that gift. The interesting facet of this is that God, in giving us His grace, chose to do so through the appearance of His Son, Jesus. Jesus, as such, was the divine agent of this gift of a divine nature to people who accept the conditions upon which we receive it.
You see, I believe that the oneness that Jesus was speaking about is what we gain when we receive the indwelling Holy Spirit. It is, in my understanding, all about the Spirit and the oneness that comes from our having the same Spirit as God and Jesus have. And yes, there is no reason that such oneness would be any different between God and Jesus and God and us. because it is the same Spirit.
The fact we receive the same Spirit that empowered Jesus only indicates we have the same God and the same nature. This does not imply that the oneness Jesus had with his Father is the same as the oneness we have with God and Jesus. As another commentator describes it, it is similtude, and not equality.
The Scriptures in the Revelation, tell us that we are co-heirs with Jesus. Co-heirs. What does 'co' mean when attached to a group of people? God and Jesus both want us to live just like Jesus. Yes, our origins are different. God is the Father of Jesus. Jesus proclaimed God to be his Father and God proclaimed Jesus to be His Son. And other than the fact that we come from a different seed, God's desire is that we live like Jesus. Jesus even said that anyone who follows after him must walk as he does. Must live as he does.
We have no disagreement about our sharing in the same Spirit as Jesus did, thus displaying the same virtues and character that Jesus did. The question is about "oneness," which I believe inferred an essential difference at the same time it recommended an essential sameness.
The Scriptures also tell us that Jesus is the 'firstborn' from the dead. Hmmm? Wouldn't that mean that there are more coming to be born from the dead? You see, I can strive to be like Jesus, but I can never think to be like God

No, the term Messiah means 'anointed one'. Jesus was the anointed one. Yes, absolutely there is a difference in the source and calling of Jesus. But as far as I can tell, the issue of oneness is that we have the same relationship with God that Jesus has with God. And really, "like all other men?" Please name me one man that you can say obeyed God like Jesus. Also, from the Scriptures, as regards mankind, there is no one righteous! (and just in case you might think to offer up your cousin Earl) the Scriptures rather forcefully repeat, "No not one!" Then they continue, "No one who understands. No one who seeks God. They have all together turned away." So I ask again, what other men obeyed God's word like Jesus did? It would seem that you'll need to remind God who that was.

Now I'm really curious how you got from the statement that I quoted above that about Messiah merely because he, like all other men, obeyed God's word????? And now you say that Jesus knew that all other men were sinners. How does that work that there are apparently men who obeyed God's word like Jesus did, but all men were sinners?
One draws general conclusions when familiar with the NT Scriptures overall. Jesus knew the OT Scriptures, of course, and recognized that the Law provided sacrifices for all Israel, and not just for the most wicked. All are contaminated by sin, and all therefore require an atonement for sin if they wish to enjoy fellowship with God and receive from Him eternal salvation.

So that's the purpose Jesus came, to provide this sacrifice of atonement so that all may receive Eternal Life, conditioned upon their acceptance of the conditions. I need not explain how this fits into what Jesus said about "oneness" because it is background information and already understood as part of the Messianic mission.

The difference between Jesus' unity with God from our unity with God is likewise understood in the difference between unblemished Messiah, the Son of God, and mankind overall who are sinners and in need of divine grace. This should not have to be explored and understood.

So look at the conversation and recognize that more is being said than just "unity." There is the matter of what the "unity" entails, and what it provides.

The unity entails Jesus as the Messianic atonement, and it provides a means for fallen men to be redeemed, in order to enjoy an eternal relationship with God. I will underline some of this in the following verses...

John 17.11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. 12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.
13 “I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. 14 I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. 15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17 Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.
20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.


1) Jesus has the name initially--he is Deity. He is Messiah in order to share God's name, and the authority it brings to redeem men.
2) Jesus has the fulness of Divine joy. As Messiah he wishes to impart that joy to his Disciples.
3) He has come into the world as Messiah to display holiness in mankind. He had that initially and wishes to impart that to us by giving us of his own Spirit.
4) Jesus as Messiah owns the basis of spiritual unity with God, which is eternal unity. As humans we achieve this by grace progressively, as we repent, convert, and manifest his righteousness through our obedience.

In all cases it is presumed that Jesus is a Messiah in complete unity with God's Person. It is presumed that he became man as part of God's plan to give His grace to us through the conduit or agency of His Son.

Taking the word "unity" or "oneness" in simplicity, or outside of its context, we may only see our participation in God as Jesus participated in God. But looking at it more closely in context, it is clear that the assumption is being made that the Messiah has a different kind of unity with God, denoting equality, even though he is drawing us into a common spiritual unity.
 
When it comes to the resurrection of Jesus from the dead (or really, any person from the dead) it makes sense that an intelligence who created life would cause this resurrection to happen through whatever means it uses to create life in the first place. Whether it's from dust (i.e. particulate matter) or from a body which is already assembled, the process would be much the same for the intelligent designer; it manipulates the matter in such a way that causes life to be there.

The alternative is to believe that such a process, that is, life from particulate matter, came from pure, random chance. In either case, life is coming from death, except in one case there is intelligence causing it to happen.

Which is more consistent with common sense?
 
Death and non-life are not necesarily the same
But, neither is life. That is the point. At some point, whether it was dead or non-life, it became life.

The difference which you did not address is that in one case, an intelligent designer caused this change to happen, even if we don't know how it happened. In the other case, this change happened by accident.

The question remains; which is more plausible?