The Atheist Asks

[Free]

So you agree Jesus denied being God in Mark 10:18?

How is that a denial? Maybe at a casual glance with very little actual thinking about the verse one might come to such a conclusion, but when one actually thinks deeper about the exchange, it becomes easy to see that in no way is it a denial of his deity.

Who called Jesus "Good teacher"? How do you think he views Jesus? What do you think Jesus's idea of "good" is, based on his response?

No, I am exegeting. For example, the Bible says the Father is the one and only true God directly in John 17:3, 1 Corinthians 8:6, Ephesians 4:6 and a number of other places. This is exactly what Unitarians believe. We are the Christians. Your doctrine of "God is one being that exists as three persons" is found absolutely no where in the Bible.

But in the process you're ignoring much context, both immediate and greater. That is the central problem in your "exegesis." I've pointed this out for these passages numerous times and have yet to see any response, or at least anything substantial.

Your premise is "God is one being that exists as three persons" so please just quote the verse that says such. If it doesn't exist, you must have deduced or inferred this somewhere.

That there isn't such a verse and how it comes from Scripture have been stated by Trinitarians ad nauseam, so why bring those up?

The Trinity is a paradox because it requires God being a man when He isn't and it requires a man being God when he's not.

Fallacious. Poor reasoning.

It also wasn't necessary for God to be a man.

Why is that?

The way evidence works is we base conclusions on what we find, not what isn't found.

Hence why the Trinity is far more likely than Unitarianism.

Where did you find the Trinity in the Bible and where did it say "God is one being that exists as three persons?"

Fallacious. Not relevant.

John 17:3 directly says what Unitarians believe. There is nothing else to add. Unitarianism isn't a theology or a doctrine, it's Scripture.

It may not add, but it subtracts and ignores.

In short, the Unitarian god is deficient and cannot be the God of the Bible.

Because no one in the early church said they did.

Yet, the believed Jesus was truly God and that the Father was truly God, yet they believed they were not the same person and maintained monotheism. Just because they couldn't articulate things doesn't mean they didn't believe the foundations of the Trinity.

Irrelevant.


But wouldn't you say they have the right idea? Let me inform you, the idea of a Trinity God isn't a Catholic and Protestant Christian exclusive, no, it existed way before that in pagan religions but when I believe God is not a Trinity like so many other non-Christians, you say I am the one who is wrong? hmm?

Here's a source:
https://www.ucg.org/bible-study-too...arian-gods-influenced-adoption-of-the-trinity

As you stated, "Irrelevant." Even if true, it would be fallacious to conclude that because triune deities existed prior to Christianity that they influenced or otherwise caused the Trinity to be adopted. Why am I not surprised at the continual poor reasoning? And that is from an official "church" source. My goodness.
https://www.ucg.org/bible-study-too...arian-gods-influenced-adoption-of-the-trinity

I am just going with what the Bible says. Maybe Jesus shouldn't have said the Father is the only true God if he didn't want people to believe it? Why don't you believe him?

Again, taken out of context and uses poor reasoning. Suit yourself.

 

[Free]

KV-44-v1

It’s interesting you speak of logic holes. The RCC refers to her Trinity doctrine as an “Impenetrable paradox”.
That means that their doctrine is to them a contradiction that cannot be understood.
The classic example comes from the Nicene Creed where they must state that what they are proposing is “not three gods, but One God”
What they had stated previously is an obvious contradiction, so they felt they needed to clarify.
Only problem is, you can’t clarify something by simply saying “not three gods, but One God”. That doesn’t change the contradiction already stated.
You might just as well describe three apples and then say they are one apple.
Apple one is red
Apple two is green
Apple three is yellow.
not three apples, one apple.

I might say that the three apples have the same nature and therefore are one apple, but that does change the fact that there are three apples.

There is no logic in the Trinity doctrine. That’s why the inventors describe it as an impenetrable paradox.

Very poor analogy; a false one. Try and deal with the doctrine of the Trinity as it is actually given. There is no contradiction, only a paradox and an exceedingly difficult concept of God, which is ultimately incomprehensible to the finite mind. That should come as no surprise. If you can fully comprehend your concept of God, then he is one of your own making.

 

[LeviR]

Very poor analogy; a false one. Try and deal with the doctrine of the Trinity as it is actually given. There is no contradiction, only a paradox and an exceedingly difficult concept of God, which is ultimately incomprehensible to the finite mind. That should come as no surprise. If you can fully comprehend your concept of God, then he is one of your own making.

Another example of the flawed reasoning is shown by “eternally begotten”.

“Abraham begat Isaac”
This means Abraham fathered Isaac who came to be by his mother giving birth to him

Simple, right.

God begat his son.
This would mean God fathered His son who came to be by his mother giving birth to him.

But you would disagree.
You would say, God begat His Son from all eternity.
Now no one can understand.
If eternity has no beginning, then there is no sense to the word begotten. It’s meaningless.

So again, something that makes no sense and is meaningless is supposed to be believed.

In order to keep some sense to the words “father”, “son” and “begotten”. We could look at it this way; God begat His son by causing his mother to become pregnant with a son in the line of Abraham.

There, we have kept the sense and meaning of the words father, son and begotten.
Wouldn’t you think it best to start from something that makes sense and has meaning?

 

[Runningman]

We already went over that. If I ask you why you call me a human I'm not denying being a human, I just want to get your answer on why you call me that.

If you're a teacher who got all of his teachings from a different teacher and someone called you "good teacher" you would not be wrong to have some class and give difference to the teacher who is really the good one. That's what Jesus did because he was taught by God the things he didn't know. Jesus not knowing what God needed to teach him and deferring glory to God both indicated Jesus isn't God.

John 8
28So Jesus said to them, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own authority, but speak just as the Father taught me.

Jesus could easily say straight up, "IM NOT GOD". Directly and to the point. Wonder why He didn't.
Oh right, it's because God is Triune. Not limited.

Humans don't need to make any argument that they are not God. Would you spend any sufficient time making it a point to let people know you're not God?

So that means that "only God is good" is false, according to you. Now who "believes contradictions"??

That isn't Jesus then.

"Only God is good"
"God and a Not-God are good"

Greek has different usages of the word good that don't translate over to English well because our word for good isn't as nuanced. The word for good Jesus used to refer to God was in regards to intrinsic goodness. It isn't to suggest that Jesus is not good or that others are not good.

Like how Jesus is able to save us if He is a limited man and not the God the Bible heavily implies He is.

God authorized Jesus to give eternal life according to John 17:2.

Tell me why that magically excludes the other Persons of the Trinity also being the only true God. Tell me why that isn't simply a monoTHIESM statment. Right, you can't. Unitatiranism is powerless in the cold!

Three persons in your Trinity. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not the same person. Jesus called the Father in your Trinity the only true God. Therefore, according to your Trinity theology, the Son and Holy Spirit would not be God. Words have meaning. Why do you think that all I really need to do is just keep quoting John 17:3? I don't need to make any arguments. It'll eventually sink in the John 17:3 contradicts Trinitarianism.

Your doctrine of "God is just like me, mono-person and wastes words! And Jesus is just like me, not-God, just A son of God and not THE!" is what's not found.

Matthew 5
48You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Ephesians 4
24and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.

1 Peter 1
16since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.”

Then why did the early Church believe it? Were they stupid? According to the logical conclusions of Unitism, they were. Thankfully Unitism is false.

It can be deduced from the Bible. Just because it's not clearly spelled out in full does not make it "nowhere".

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." - John

How can a "not-God" be God? Again, it's the Unitarian who believes contradiction, not Trinity accepters.

In the Bible no one believed in the Trinity. The earliest example of the church we have doesn't have any Trinitarians.

You don't have a monopoly either. So you don't have an authoritive answer either.

You're the one who has an uphill fight to even prove the Trinity. You're going to need to produce arguments because the Bible doesn't just directly and explicitly settle the matter.

Because satan hates the Trinity Truth. That's why his goons, willing or ignorant, like the Muslims and cults, want to peddle uniatriasm. Athiests love "Jesus not God" idea because it helps them, intellectually, remain athiests.

I would argue that Satan loves that you think the Trinity is the truth so long as it keeps you in spiritual bondage to idolatry.

People want to be unitarian so they have their OWN way, belittle God, and be snuggle buddies with the worLd. But Jesus, the One Who unitarian ideology attacks viciously, says to NOT be OF the worLd.
No wonder Unitarian theology attacks Jesus, because He is commanding those who would otherwise believe in Unitarianism to not be like the worLd, who gravitates toward false, contra-Bible ideas. Uniatiranism can't get its way, so it feels like it has to strike at God.

Unitarianism is just what the Bible teaches. Hand someone a Bible and don't try to fill their head with a bunch of Trinitarian propaganda and they will not become a Trinitarian. They will become a Unitarian.

The pagans were unitarians because they thought their gods were one-person.
Do you really think the devil would attack lies rather than focus on fighting truth?

John 17:3 says God is one person. Same thing in 1 Corinthians 8:6 and Ephesians 4:6. Jesus and Paul aren't pagans.

 

[Runningman]

Your belief about God is that only the Father is God and the other Two Persons "aren't".
So ofc the FATHER isn't a man.

Of course the Father isn't a man.

But the SON does have a HUMAN NATURE. He does not have the fallen human nature because He is God, not flawed like us, too bad your worldview hinders your ability to accept this.

Your sleight of hand did not go unnoticed. You're attempting to conflate God with a nature when God is a person. Personhood does not necessitate being a human, but rather having the characteristics of a person. A nature is a characteristic and the divine nature of God is a thing that Christians can also have.

2 Peter 1
4by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire.

Sure, God could have just said "I'm done with these people" and send all sinners to eternal torment. But out of love He died for us. No mere man could ever take the punishment. Only God could do it.

No, that is not the right idea. Paul taught that God does not need human hands even though Jesus has human hands. Jesus was a prophet who pointed the way to God. He was empowered by God to give proof for God because proof is powerful.

Acts 17
24The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man, 25nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything.

Jesus was already God. No need to "be empowered".

The Bible plainly teaches that Jesus was authorized by God to forgive sins:

Matthew 9
5For which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Rise and walk’? 6But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—he then said to the paralytic—“Rise, pick up your bed and go home.” 7And he rose and went home. 8When the crowds saw it, they were afraid, and they glorified God, who had given such authority to men.

You can't detach yourself from your assumptions like I can, it seems, because you do not have that skill. Or just can't pin what they are.

What's that?

Yup, He was sinless.

Agreed.

Where do you get this?

The Bible.

The Son: Fully God fully man.

No.

Lol, what would that be?
I can tell you your trap: wanting to be OF the worLd, and wishing to shoot down God to your level. Humanism. Self-centricness.

Nope.

No, I don't think that God has "three modes".
And the Persons of the Trinity are distinct, but they are God.

So the God in the Trinity members is God then who are the Trinity members? Are they vessels?

Modalism, oneness, are deviations. Like unistarnism.

Like Trinitarianism.

So you admit you cannot show the Trinity Truth false. I've shown Jesusbelittlism to be false repeatedly.

John 17:3.

Yup. We find that uniatrianism and/or "Jesus not God" theory produces ROTTEN FRUIT (see cults, islam, athiests and their actions).
Christians who accept the Trinity Truth, however, produce GOOD FRUIT. (charities, helping random people, converting unsaved.)

Your Trinitarian church history is riddled with violence, bloodshed, and the worst humanity has to offer and you talk about rotten fruit. Please, look in a mirror.

 

[KV-44-v1]

Your sleight of hand did not go unnoticed.

When i said He is God, I was not saying He was the Father. That assumption that Unitaraism is true got you again.
At least I know you mean the Father and ONLY the Father when you refer to God.

You're attempting to conflate God with a nature when God is a person

No, God HAS a nature. When did I say that God IS a nature?
Actually, even better: He's Three Persons.
It's the Uniatran camp who is trying to de-Personify God by claiming that God is one-Person instead of Three.
As an example, If I tried to claim that humans were zero-person, would not that be removing persons?

The reason they believed in him who God had sent is because he was the promised Messiah. The one in who Moses and the prophets did write. The anointed one of God. Whom God anointed with His Holy Spirit to be prophet, priest and king. (From: christianforums.net/threads/more-potential-arguments-vs-the-bible.107244/page-4#post-1907813)

Do you not think the Father (One Person, God) would anoint His Son (Another Person, God) instead of a mere not-God?

A not-God would be COMPLETELY UNSUITABLE for the role of Savior of Mankind. Jesus paid the penalty for sin. How could a not-God pay for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD in that time and for all sins people will do IN THE FUTURE?? Just because "oh, chosen" does NOT change Jesus' supposedly "not God" nature.
Many people were chosen for something. So why randomly choose a not-God for a role only God can do?

Jesus' circumstances were and are so special that He cannot possibly be a not-God. Unitarians love to attack Jesus' Divine side. Uniatranism is a HALF TRUTH. Jesus, fully God AND man. Not just one or the other.

If Unitaraiism were true, TONS of not-gods, TONS of "Jesus"es would have to die. 1 not-god Savior for every sinner.


NOT ONE SINGLE UNITARIAN is able to explain the ACTUAL contradiction between "Only God is good" and "Jesus the NOT-God somehow was good". If their new, unorthodox, worldly idea was correct they could explain it. They also have no answers to why math proves that God is one God, Three Persons.

Tell me why God would anoint a not-God instead of anoint another Person of the Trinity.
Tell me why God created humans instead of some other race/species. God created us because His Son had a human side. God is Perfect, so His Son being BOTH fully man AND fully God is perfect. Thus, Uniatianism seeks to claim that God is imperfect.

In fact, ONLY TRINITARIANS can FULLY appreicate being, "MADE IN GOD'S IMAGE" because JESUS IS GOD!!
Unitarians must suffer the fallout of their hatred for Jesus' Divinity.
As you can see not ONCE have I ever denied or hated Jesus' human side. It's always unitarians trying to attack an aspect of God's Nature and make God be like the rest.

 

[KV-44-v1]

Your Trinitarian church history is riddled with violence, bloodshed, and the worst humanity has to offer and you talk about rotten fruit. Please, look in a mirror.

Your sleight of hand didn't go unnoticed. Those were catholics, that is the fruit of Catholicism. Mary worship, works-based salvation, pope exalting, making graven images, they began inqusitions, supersition.

If you compare, you'll see the Belittler side is worse, not the Trinitarian side.

The vast majority of Catholics are no longer in a blood frenzy, but Islam still is. Much more good deeds can be attributed to Catholics than muslims.

 

[KV-44-v1]

Personhood does not necessitate being a human, but rather having the characteristics of a person.

Didn't say or imply otherwise. Jesus being fully God and fully man God doesn't necessitate that He isn't a Person of the Trinity.

A nature is a characteristic and the divine nature of God is a thing that Christians can also have.

Oh, youre conflating God with a nature! LOL!
So you now admit God HAS a Nature, right?

2 Peter 1
4by which (H)e has granted to us (H)is precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire.

How can a "not-God" Who died long ago grant us anything?
"partakers of" This just refer to that we can enjoy the results of God's Works. We can get gifts from God. We can enjoy the presence of God.

The reason He can do this is because He's God. By Unitatiran logic the Prophets can do this (and all other things Jesus could and did do) too.


Third, being partakers of the divine nature involves escaping the world’s decay and rising above sinful desires. Simply put, when we are saved, we receive a new nature, by which we do not perish with the world.
gotquestions.org/partakers-divine-nature.html

 

[KV-44-v1]

It’s interesting you speak of logic holes. The RCC refers to her Trinity doctrine as an “Impenetrable paradox”.
That means that their doctrine is to them a contradiction that cannot be understood.

I'm not an RCC.
If someones god is so limited you can fully understand everything about him/it in this life, he/it is not the Biblical God.

The classic example comes from the Nicene Creed where they must state that what they are proposing is “not three gods, but One God”
What they had stated previously is an obvious contradiction, so they felt they needed to clarify.

Prove that it's a contradiction.
Humans mess up even the parts that don't involve the Trinity. Does that make those parts "contradictions" too?
Not surprised if you believe Genesis 1 and 2 are contradictions.

Only problem is, you can’t clarify something by simply saying “not three gods, but One God”.

Why not?

That doesn’t change the contradiction already stated.
You might just as well describe three apples and then say they are one apple.
Apple one is red
Apple two is green
Apple three is yellow.
not three apples, one apple.

All of those apples are apples. You have now made it as if the Trinity is proclaiming three gods.

God is not limited like creation is. A untiatrian god would be limited. Unitatrians try to place limits on the Triune God even if they don't think that.

There is no logic in the Trinity doctrine. That’s why the inventors describe it as an impenetrable paradox.

Not your perception of logic.
Proverbs 3:5

 

[LeviR]

When i said He is God, I was not saying He was the Father. That assumption that Unitaraism is true got you again.
At least I know you mean the Father and ONLY the Father when you refer to God.



No, God HAS a nature. When did I say that God IS a nature?
Actually, even better: He's Three Persons.
It's the Uniatran camp who is trying to de-Personify God by claiming that God is one-Person instead of Three.
As an example, If I tried to claim that humans were zero-person, would not that be removing persons?





Do you not think the Father (One Person, God) would anoint His Son (Another Person, God) instead of a mere not-God?

A not-God would be COMPLETELY UNSUITABLE for the role of Savior of Mankind. Jesus paid the penalty for sin. How could a not-God pay for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD in that time and for all sins people will do IN THE FUTURE?? Just because "oh, chosen" does NOT change Jesus' supposedly "not God" nature.
Many people were chosen for something. So why randomly choose a not-God for a role only God can do?

Jesus' circumstances were and are so special that He cannot possibly be a not-God. Unitarians love to attack Jesus' Divine side. Uniatranism is a HALF TRUTH. Jesus, fully God AND man. Not just one or the other.

If Unitaraiism were true, TONS of not-gods, TONS of "Jesus"es would have to die. 1 not-god Savior for every sinner.


NOT ONE SINGLE UNITARIAN is able to explain the ACTUAL contradiction between "Only God is good" and "Jesus the NOT-God somehow was good". If their new, unorthodox, worldly idea was correct they could explain it. They also have no answers to why math proves that God is one God, Three Persons.

Tell me why God would anoint a not-God instead of anoint another Person of the Trinity.
Tell me why God created humans instead of some other race/species. God created us because His Son had a human side. God is Perfect, so His Son being BOTH fully man AND fully God is perfect. Thus, Uniatianism seeks to claim that God is imperfect.

In fact, ONLY TRINITARIANS can FULLY appreicate being, "MADE IN GOD'S IMAGE" because JESUS IS GOD!!
Unitarians must suffer the fallout of their hatred for Jesus' Divinity.
As you can see not ONCE have I ever denied or hated Jesus' human side. It's always unitarians trying to attack an aspect of God's Nature and make God be like the rest.

God does not anoint Himself with the Holy Spirit.
It is only your opinion that a man cannot be savior of man.
Only one savior is needed to save, not only himself but others. Jesus was saved from death by being raised from the dead to die not more.

 

[KV-44-v1]

God does not anoint Himself with the Holy Spirit.

Verse?
The Son was anointed.

It is only your opinion that a man cannot be savior of man

It's only yours that a not-God could somehow magically save us all even though that's a not-God.

8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death: death on a cross.

Philippians 2:8



Why bother with "appearance of" if He is only fully man but not fully Divine? You would have me believe God wastes words?

.
Only one (S)avior is needed to save, not only (H)imself but others.

Yes because He was God. If it were a man WITH NO DIVINE NATURE, that would be impossible.
Tell me why all others God chose, after their death, did not save us. Answer: They were men with no Divine Nature.

Whats impossible with man is impossible with God. So only Jesus, fully man AND fully God, could and would save us.

 

[Runningman]

When i said He is God, I was not saying He was the Father. That assumption that Unitaraism is true got you again.
At least I know you mean the Father and ONLY the Father when you refer to God.

The Scriptures teach that that only Father is God in John 17:3, 1 Corinthians 8:6, Ephesians 4:6, and all of the regular canonized Bible. On this point, either all of the prophets were wrong or you, a random user on a forum, has some secret divine information that is poised to upset Christianity. If you have proof there is someone else who is God using Scripture then I challenge you to try. So far you have produced nothing.

No, God HAS a nature. When did I say that God IS a nature?
Actually, even better: He's Three Persons.

Verse?

It's the Uniatran camp who is trying to de-Personify God by claiming that God is one-Person instead of Three.
As an example, If I tried to claim that humans were zero-person, would not that be removing persons?

Unitarians don't believe in de-personing God; that is a Trinitarian position because it is required to deperson God in order to have three persons who are God together. We believe God is the Father and He's a person.

Do you not think the Father (One Person, God) would anoint His Son (Another Person, God) instead of a mere not-God?

The Father has anointed many people, Jesus included, who are not God.

A not-God would be COMPLETELY UNSUITABLE for the role of Savior of Mankind. Jesus paid the penalty for sin. How could a not-God pay for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD in that time and for all sins people will do IN THE FUTURE?? Just because "oh, chosen" does NOT change Jesus' supposedly "not God" nature.
Many people were chosen for something. So why randomly choose a not-God for a role only God can do?

Seems you are not quite understanding what Jesus did. Jesus is the sin sacrifice in Christianity. Since Jesus was never a sinner his sacrifice was superior to that of the bulls and goats that preceded him. Hebrews explains this pretty good.

Jesus' circumstances were and are so special that He cannot possibly be a not-God.

Why?

Unitarians love to attack Jesus' Divine side. Uniatranism is a HALF TRUTH. Jesus, fully God AND man. Not just one or the other.

What you perceive as an "attack" is actually you being corrected. Sometimes the truth hurts.

If Unitaraiism were true, TONS of not-gods, TONS of "Jesus"es would have to die. 1 not-god Savior for every sinner.

Only the Father is God. Focus.

NOT ONE SINGLE UNITARIAN is able to explain the ACTUAL contradiction between "Only God is good" and "Jesus the NOT-God somehow was good". If their new, unorthodox, worldly idea was correct they could explain it. They also have no answers to why math proves that God is one God, Three Persons.

I already explained it in comment #64.

If you're a teacher who got all of his teachings from a different teacher and someone called you "good teacher" you would not be wrong to have some class and give difference to the teacher who is really the good one. That's what Jesus did because he was taught by God the things he didn't know. Jesus not knowing what God needed to teach him and deferring glory to God both indicated Jesus isn't God.

John 8
28So Jesus said to them, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own authority, but speak just as the Father taught me.

Tell me why God would anoint a not-God instead of anoint another Person of the Trinity.
Tell me why God created humans instead of some other race/species. God created us because His Son had a human side. God is Perfect, so His Son being BOTH fully man AND fully God is perfect. Thus, Uniatianism seeks to claim that God is imperfect.

1 John 2:20, 1 John 2:27, and 2 Corinthians 1:21-22 speak on God anointing people. When Jesus was anointed by God in Luke 4:18 and Acts 10:38, it doesn't follow that Jesus is God.

In fact, ONLY TRINITARIANS can FULLY appreicate being, "MADE IN GOD'S IMAGE" because JESUS IS GOD!!

God made mankind in God's image. If your conclusion is that makes Jesus God then what stops you from believing others are God?

Unitarians must suffer the fallout of their hatred for Jesus' Divinity.

We just rightly understand that many of the same things that apply to Jesus also apply to Christians. If we share so much in common and we aren't God then why would Jesus be?

As you can see not ONCE have I ever denied or hated Jesus' human side. It's always unitarians trying to attack an aspect of God's Nature and make God be like the rest.

To put it lightly, I will simply call this a strawman argument or perhaps gaslighting.

 

[Runningman]

Your sleight of hand didn't go unnoticed. Those were catholics, that is the fruit of Catholicism. Mary worship, works-based salvation, pope exalting, making graven images, they began inqusitions, supersition.

If you compare, you'll see the Belittler side is worse, not the Trinitarian side.

The vast majority of Catholics are no longer in a blood frenzy, but Islam still is. Much more good deeds can be attributed to Catholics than muslims.

Fundamentally they were Trinitarians like you. A word of advice, people in glass houses should not throw stones.

 

[Runningman]

Didn't say or imply otherwise. Jesus being fully God and fully man God doesn't necessitate that He isn't a Person of the Trinity.

Oh, youre conflating God with a nature! LOL!
So you now admit God HAS a Nature, right?

You said this the below quote. You're using a false equivalence to conflate not having a fallen human nature with being God. Then were Adam and Eve God as well?

But the SON does have a HUMAN NATURE. He does not have the fallen human nature because He is God, not flawed like us, too bad your worldview hinders your ability to accept this.

How can a "not-God" Who died long ago grant us anything?

God put him at His right hand. Why do you limit God so much on what He can do?

"partakers of" This just refer to that we can enjoy the results of God's Works. We can get gifts from God. We can enjoy the presence of God.

Partaking of the divine nature means having the divine nature.

The reason He can do this is because He's God. By Unitatiran logic the Prophets can do this (and all other things Jesus could and did do) too.

You seem to hold a different standard for God one moment and then the next moment limit Him.

Third, being partakers of the divine nature involves escaping the world’s decay and rising above sinful desires. Simply put, when we are saved, we receive a new nature, by which we do not perish with the world.
gotquestions.org/partakers-divine-nature.html

That's what Jesus did. Wasn't Jesus tempted to sin "in all ways as we are" and yet didn't sin? God isn't tempted to sin.

 

[RandyK]

As y'all know in Apologetics we have to be prepared to give a defense for our faith. I'm posting this out of curiosity on what others people's tactics are when answering for accusations or genuine questions about our faith, whether from atheists, agnostics, other religions, and curious Christians.

But because it sounds better, the series will be called TAA, The Atheist Asks.

So first question,

The Atheist Asks, "How do you know Jesus really rose from the dead, how do you know it's the right tomb?"

It's not just the testimony of credible people from the 1st century, but much more, a long stream of credible figures throughout history, originating from the time of Jesus. Even moreso, the testimony is spiritual, in our heart. And the word that comes to us from Deity comports with the testimony of Scriptures. It is all one grand design authenticated by our own spiritual experience of God.

 

[RandyK]

True, and at the root of it no amount of evidence will be able to satiate those who don't want to believe in Christ.

The important thing is that the testimony of the 500 was needed to establish a *start* to the belief in Jesus' resurrection. It was authenticated *at the time,* even though 2000 years later we may feel that distance makes everything less clear. It may not help us today, but we can't ignore the fact that it somehow got started...on steroids. Somehow that happened!

 

[RandyK]

From my Lutheran perspective, and I'll quote from Luther's Small Catechism, "I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him; but the Holy Spirit has called me by the Gospel." To witness includes sharing the gospel.

I have a Lutheran background, and I agree that we cannot *by our own reason* assess anything about God whatsoever without the help of God Himself. It certainly doesn't mean we irrationally believe, but it means that we can reasosn together with Divine revelation to understand truth. Proving things is a Divine art, and I won't try to guess how that's done in all cases. ;)

 

[RandyK]

We need to be honest and reasonable about the answers we give. They ask questions like this because they already know we can’t provide concrete proof about the resurrection of Jesus. The cards are already stacked in favor of the one asking this question. There isn’t really a direct answer to give to this question other than this is what we believe. If they are looking for a video or an eyewitness of the resurrection, then they are not going to find it.

It isn’t a good idea to make any claims that we have proof of the resurrection. Even just saying "the Bible says so" isn’t really an argument for proof because using the internal witness of a book to prove itself isn’t how proof works. So it’s better to disarm this kind of question by being reasonable about it.

It’s better to provide good reasons why we believe in God and Jesus in the first place, and that may involve sharing some experiences about why we believe what we do.

I would say the Bible already provides a good way to be persuasive about our faith. It tells us to be good and love others. When we genuinely love someone, even a stranger, it’s attractive to them, and your goodness will only bolster your position, even if your position doesn’t have any proof, making it easier to digest or at least tolerate.

I agree--a good witness in terms of good behavior is mandatory. However, it is God *in the witness* that testifies to others of the truth of God. That is, it requires the supernatural help of God to indwell our works and then speak to others about it.

Proof can be rational, but God is not limited to that. He can give dreams and visions, He can speak audibly to people, He can show people miracles, etc. etc.

Proof is given as God sees fit. And the way He sees fit is sufficient to judge people because He knows what each individual really needs as proof.

 

[RandyK]

Very poor analogy; a false one. Try and deal with the doctrine of the Trinity as it is actually given. There is no contradiction, only a paradox and an exceedingly difficult concept of God, which is ultimately incomprehensible to the finite mind. That should come as no surprise. If you can fully comprehend your concept of God, then he is one of your own making.

In fact, the Trinity is necessary precisely due to the fact we are dealing with infinite truths that extend beyond our understanding. God was before the creation we are a part of. We can never understand anything more than Divine revelation extends from some point before creation.

In an instant we then recognize that God is a Person before Creation and simultaneously is the revelation of His Person within Creation--at a minum, 2 Persons of the same Deity. In fact, God can reveal His Person in an innumerable number of ways, indicated by the fact He revealed Himself as a human in Jesus, and also as humans or angels in the form of theophanies in the OT Scriptures.

Clearly, by necessity we see God as more than one Person. It is best understood from our point of view in human terms, as "one substance in 3 Persons." And just one Deity.

 

[LeviR]

Verse?
The Son was anointed.

It's only yours that a not-God could somehow magically save us all even though that's a not-God.


Philippians 2:8



Why bother with "appearance of" if He is only fully man but not fully Divine? You would have me believe God wastes words?

Yes because He was God. If it were a man WITH NO DIVINE NATURE, that would be impossible.
Tell me why all others God chose, after their death, did not save us. Answer: They were men with no Divine Nature.

Whats impossible with man is impossible with God. So only Jesus, fully man AND fully God, could and would save us.

Christ has been anointed by the Father to be prophet, priest and king.
Prophets spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. Jesus spoke by the Holy Spirit. His prophecy in Revelation is said to be the prophecy which God gave to him.

Jesus is a priest of the order of Melchizedek. This is an order of priesthood with endless life. He became priest of this order when raised from the dead by the Spirit of the Father.

Jesus is anointed King, not by the oil mixture of mortal kings, but by the oil of gladness…..Holy Spirit.