The Beast of Revelations

[lecoop]

The second beast in rev is said to make fire come down in the face of the beast.
As Ive said.This is the gentile army that is in Judea that makes fire come down out of heaven .This same beast is said to give people the mark of the beast.

Coop
If its a miracle to you that the army can send a missile and it explodes ,is it also a miracle that this same beast could mark someone with a mark?

As Ive stated.This is for Israel's national security.
This army is sent to Israel to be its savior and to deliver it from its enemies.
Its a peace keeping force for crying out loud.

All this can take place in your face and you wouldnt understand any of it.
The US can move its embassy to Jerusalem,and you still wouldnt understand it.


Oh ,and by the way.The scipture doesnt say the Son of perdition claims to be God.It says he shows himself that he is God.Two completly different things.

Shilohsfoal, ever idea you have come up with is far from the "pale of orthodoxy" or what we find in the commentaries. (I tried to come up with a nice way to say your ideas have all be FAR OUT.)

make fire come down in the face of the beast.

No, that is not what it says. You see, Satan has possessed the man of sin, and in doing that limited himself. So the false prophet can ONLY do miracles when he is close, physically, to the beast. The KJV says, "in the sight of the beast."

As Ive said.This is the gentile army that is in Judea that makes fire come down out of heaven .This same beast is said to give people the mark of the beast.

Sorry, STILL way out in left field. It is the FALSE PROPHET that makes fire come down. Your preconceived glasses are totally MESSING YOU UP! For crying out loud, TAKE THEM OFF! Just read what is written.

Read carefully: with preconceived glasses OFF:

14And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying ....

Sorry, and army does not "saying," but a man does. The false prophet is not an army, he is a MAN. Have you ever heard of an army called a "prophet?" Is an army called "he?" Could an army be in the sight of the beast? Yes, if the beast were up high: but a MAN could always be in the sight of the beast - the beast ALSO being a man, i.e. Paul's "man of sin." So where in the world do you get an army? It is a man that John calls the "false prophet." Come in from left field, take off your preconceived glasses, and start over.

Coop
If its a miracle to you that the army can send a missile and it explodes ,is it also a miracle that this same beast could mark someone with a mark?

Can you take off your preconceived glasses and just read? It is the false prophet - a MAN. There IS NO MISSILE. That is your wild theory, that DOES NOT FIT THE SCRIPTURE. Drop it. It is a man, (think of Elijah calling down fire from heaven: where was the missle there?) whom John calls the false prophet. He calls down fire, NOT a missle, but fire. But ONLY when in sight of the beast. The devil's power is limited. The false prophet will indeed be given authority, but he is secondary to the man of sin beast, and it is the antichrist's armies that enforce the mark. And perhaps then, many other armies / police forces in the world. I am not sure if people will be hunting down beleivers, for example, in the Canadian Northwest. Will the Royal Canadian Mounted Police be hunting down believers, to chop off their head? I just don't know. It does say that the whole world will be deceived, and worship the beast.

As Ive stated.This is for Israel's national security.
This army is sent to Israel to be its savior and to deliver it from its enemies.
Its a peace keeping force for crying out loud.

Do you have ANY scripture for this? Did you forget this is "Daniel's 70th week," and the Jews will be hunted down like animals, like sheep to the slaughter, as they were in WW 2? Did you forget what Jesus said? "When you therefore" see the abomination, RUN FOR YOUR LIVES. The beast's plan will be to wipe Israel off the map. Did you forget that "the whole world wandered after the beast?" Did you forget, "who is able to make war with him?" What army do you imagine will face this beast, and be there to protect Israel? What bible are you reading?

All this can take place in your face and you wouldnt understand any of it.
The US can move its embassy to Jerusalem,and you still wouldnt understand it.


Oh ,and by the way.The scipture doesnt say the Son of perdition claims to be God.It says he shows himself that he is God.Two completly different things.[/

Be my guest: explain all this too us: but please use scripture to back it up?

Coop

 

[veteran]

As for what the othrodox Jews who refuse Christ Jesus will worship, they are waiting for Messiah's coming still. So they will accept the next one coming that works supernatural works on earth in the sight of men as their Messiah. And that's the kind of working that "another beast" of Rev.13:11 forward is to work on earth.

There is nothing,and I mean nothing supernatural about anyone making fire come down from heaven in the sight of men.We are talking about an army here veteran.If you truly are a veteran ,then you should know what gentile army is best at making fire come out of heaven in the sight of the beast.

2000 years ago this may have seamed superatural but not anymore.The US army can make fire come down out of heaven anytime it wants to.

I don't know where you get that idea of a literal war during the tribulation timing, maybe from qooks like Hal Lindsay, I don't know.

Rev 13:4-7
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, and His tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
(KJV)

That time is certainly NOT about a literal war with men's weapons! It's about deception of the whole world into false worship. That's why none will be able to make literal war with the beast in that time.


Rev 13:11-14
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
(KJV)

The word "wonders" is Greek 'semeion' meaning per the Strong's 'an indication, especially ceremonially or SUPERNATURALLY.' (Strong's no. 4592). It's the same Greek word used for great signs and miracles throughout the NT. It's the same Greek word in Rev.13:14 rendered "miracles".

Raising the dead, healing the lame, those are miracles. Firing off a rocket is not. So don't tell me about using common sense when obviously you haven't paid attention to what's written there!

 

[veteran]

Veteran, I see a problem.

In Rev 13, we do NOT read:

1And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy, and I saw another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

No, John did not write it like that. Why? Because the second beast comes along later - some time AFTER the abomination.

It is he, the second beast that causes the world to worship the first beast.
It is he that does great wonders, and makes fire come down.
It is he that deceives the world with his miracles. (ONLY while in sight of the first beast.)

I think you're all mixed up, because we've already discussed about the 7th trumpet timing, which you deny happens after the 1260 days of God's two witnesses per Rev.11.

The FIRST beast rises up out of the "sea", and is a SYSTEM of control. It is not an entity. In Rev.17:15 our Lord showed those 'waters' represent multitudes, peoples, nations, and tongues, essentially the whole earth. That's the "one world government" system control over all... nations.

Then a SECOND beast is given starting later in Rev.13:11 called "another beast", which comes up out of the earth, has two horns LIKE a lamb, but speaks as the dragon. It's because it is THE DRAGON, Satan himself, for that's another one of his titles we were given in Rev.12:9. Antichrist, son of perdition, the beast that ascends from the bottomless pit, that old serpent, the dragon, man of sin, that Wicked, angel of the bottomless pit, Abaddon, Apollyon, it's all the same entity, the devil himself. That dragon will exercise control of the first beast world system. It's that second beast, an entity, that will be a religious beast, and will bring false worship.

It's that second beast entity that will probably finalize the first beast world system over all nations, and then setup false worship for the whole world. It's important to note the subject line moves back and forth in the early part of the Rev.13 chapter, between the system beast and the religious beast entity...

Rev 13:4-5
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.(KJV)

That is about worship of the dragon entity, the "another beast" of Rev.13:11 forward, because it is he who gives power to the first beast (a system control setup over all nations made up of ten horns, ten crowns, and seven heads). Didn't you notice this type of contrast also given back in Rev.12:3-4 about the dragon and the beast system he setup in times of old, which only had "seven crowns" at his original rebellion?

And how long is that dragon given power to work? 42 months, the same time of those in Rev.11:2 who tread the courts of the temple, which is the same 1260 days God's "two witnesses" give a testimony in Jerusalem, which is ALSO the same three and one half years of Daniel the antichrist is given to make war with the saints and overcome them.

So when God's Word is talking about a time when the dragon is given to persecute the saints for three and a half years, you can bet that is the latter half of the symbolic "one week" of Daniel, the "great tribulation". It's because Christ's coming on the day of The Lord is what ENDS that tribulation. NONE of us are going anywhere until after that tribulation when Christ comes to end it. And it's THEN, at Christ's coming, when the destruction upon His enemies happens, His wrath poured out upon the wicked. That's one of the events that ends the tribulation upon God's people. The "great tribulation" is NOT a time of literal war, but a time of false peace, just like Paul showed with the "Peace and safety" of 1 Thess.5.

Dan 8:25
25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
(KJV)

Also, that dragon will broken without hand, meaning without OUR hand. It is Christ Jesus with His army of angels that is going to fight for us. And that's what ends the 42 months, or 1260 days, or 3 and 1/2 years last half of the tribulation. That's why the 7th trumpet happens at the END of the 1260 days prophecy of God's two witnesses, as written in Rev.11.

 

[lecoop]

Sorry, Veteran, but here your preconceived glasses have blurred your vision. You mentioned Dan 8: 25.

Dan 8:
23And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

24And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

25And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

The first thing I want you to notice, is that this is a MAN, not a kingdom. Notice, "A KING...shall stand up."

Of course the beast of Rev. 13 will have a kingdom, but that kingdom WILL HAVE A KING. And that king will be the beast of Rev 13, and the "man of sin" that Paul Mentions.

It is a MAN that performs the abomination, NOT a kingdom. How could a kingdom walk into the Holy Place of a temple? And you think I am confused? But, back to these verses: "And in the latter time of their kingdom..."

WHOSE kingdom? Did you get the context here? This is speaking of Alexander the Great's kingdom: it is in the latter time of HIS kingdom, BEFORE Rome finally destroyed them. Sorry, Veteran, but this man is only a TYPE of the beast; this is speaking of Antiochus Epiphanes.

Note: WHO gets cast into the lake of fire?

Revelation 19:20
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him , with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

NOW who gets cast in?

Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

How then can you say that this "false prophet" is Satan? No! No! No!! Both the beast AND the false prophet are human beings, MEN. But at the abmination, the beast man (antichrist) will be possessed by Satan. That is why the false prophet can only do his wonders when in close proximity to the beast.

I think you're all mixed up, because we've already discussed about the 7th trumpet timing, which you deny happens after the 1260 days of God's two witnesses per Rev.11.

I never mentioned the 7th trumpet, so why bring that up here? Of course I deny your timing, because in your rearranged chronology, you have the first six vials BEFORE the 7th trumpet. You seem to have most of the Chronology straight, but you fail (over and over an over, even after I have brought it to your attention) to recognize that MOST Of John's narrative of the two witnesses is AS A PARENTHESIS. The 7th trumpet does NOT sound 1260 linear days AFTER the two witnesses show up. They show up 3 1/2 days before the abomination, and 3 1/2 days before the 7th trumpet. But, that is not our argument today.

The FIRST beast rises up out of the "sea", and is a SYSTEM of control. It is not an entity. In Rev.17:15 our Lord showed those 'waters' represent multitudes, peoples, nations, and tongues, essentially the whole earth. That's the "one world government" system control over all... nations.

So, where is the "MAN of sin" in this? Of course there is a kingdom. The great whore babylon was seen riding on this kingdom - but you are LEAVING OUT the KING of that kingdom, who is the antichrist. Forget "one world goverment." CAn you find that in scripture? All John tells us is that the whole world will worship the beast - and that he has been given authority over the world, by Satan. But nowhere does John prove to us that he actually gets the ENTIRE WORLD under his control. In fact, when John says "all the world wondered after the beast," what does that mean? Back then, "the whole world" was the Roman Empire. In fact, if He did have the entire world, every nation as we know it today, why is he worried about "tidings out of the east and out of the north?" So, perhaps when John says "the whole world," we should take that to mean the land areas of the Roman Empire. The image of Daniel 2 did not take in the whole world. But, even this is another argument. Perhaps he does control the entire world. But I doubt it. My point is, the beast's kingdom, will have a KING, and he will be the antichrist.

Then a SECOND beast is given starting later in Rev.13:11 called "another beast", which comes up out of the earth, has two horns LIKE a lamb, but speaks as the dragon. It's because it is THE DRAGON, Satan himself, for that's another one of his titles we were given in Rev.12:9. Antichrist, son of perdition, the beast that ascends from the bottomless pit, that old serpent, the dragon, man of sin, that Wicked, angel of the bottomless pit, Abaddon, Apollyon, it's all the same entity, the devil himself. That dragon will exercise control of the first beast world system. It's that second beast, an entity, that will be a religious beast, and will bring false worship.

It CANNOT be Satan Himself, as proved above. It is a MAN, that John called the false prophet. This MAN performs wonders - and by them fools the world.

It's important to note the subject line moves back and forth in the early part of the Rev.13 chapter, between the system beast and the religious beast entity...

You are mistaken: that is the DEVIL, or SATAN that John is speaking of, and he possesses the MAN of Antichrist, or MAN of sin. He is the dragon of chapter 12. It is SATAN (who offered all the kindoms of the world to Jesus) that is worshipped with the MAN, Antichrist.

"they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast"

Notice, John uses the SAME word, as he used in chapter 12, for Satan. This is NOT the second beast. The second beast is a MAN, just as this beast is a MAN.

That is about worship of the dragon entity, the "another beast" of Rev.13:11 forward, because it is he who gives power to the first beast (a system control setup over all nations made up of ten horns, ten crowns, and seven heads). Didn't you notice this type of contrast also given back in Rev.12:3-4 about the dragon and the beast system he setup in times of old, which only had "seven crowns" at his original rebellion?

Of course Satan has ALWAYS wanted to be worshipped. But here he has possessed the beast (A MAN) and has raised up a "false prophet" to POINT to the man for worship. It is never written that the world worships the second beast. He (a MAN) is only a tool used by Satan to FOOL the nations. And people don't worship kingdoms or nations: they worship people or God, or Satan in this case, posing as God.

And how long is that dragon given power to work? 42 months, the same time of those in Rev.11:2 who tread the courts of the temple, which is the same 1260 days God's "two witnesses" give a testimony in Jerusalem, which is ALSO the same three and one half years of Daniel the antichrist is given to make war with the saints and overcome them.

Again, you missed it: it is the BEAST that has been given the 42 months of authority. Satan has had authority (usurped) from the days of Adam. But, we are in agreement on these different verses that show the last 3 1/2 years. Of course they all cover the same basic period of time. The ones given in days will be accurate to the day. The ones given in months will be accurate to the month (but perhaps not to the day.) WE could say they are all parallel. But where you have missed it BIG TIME, is thinking that the 7th trumpet was at the END of all these parallel periods of time. It is the 7th VIAL that ends the 70th week, not the 7th trumpet. John keeps things in chronological order: NO vial can be poured out until all 7 trumpets are sounded. Again, you MISSED the parenthesis. The 7th trumpet sounds at the MIDPOINT.

So when God's Word is talking about a time when the dragon is given to persecute the saints for three and a half years, you can bet that is the latter half of the symbolic "one week" of Daniel, the "great tribulation".

I agree. You are right on this.

It's because Christ's coming on the day of The Lord is what ENDS that tribulation.

Here you went off the deep end. This is only theory, and a bad one at that. John and the Holy Spirit begin the "day of the Lord" at the 7th seal, with the SIGNS for it, at the 6th seal. Why do you not agree with them? Even Paul has it there with the escape of the church and then the "sudden destruction," which is at the 6th seal. And Paul's theme there is the "day of the Lord." And you missed it again, because it is the 7th VIAL that ends the 70th week. Go and read: the last words say, "it is done." And you have missed it again, for "those days" of great tribulation (not a set time) are cut short by the vials of God's wrath, so "those days" will end BEFORE the 7th vial ends the 70th week.

NONE of us are going anywhere until after that tribulation when Christ comes to end it. And it's THEN, at Christ's coming, when the destruction upon His enemies happens, His wrath poured out upon the wicked. That's one of the events that ends the tribulation upon God's people. The "great tribulation" is NOT a time of literal war, but a time of false peace, just like Paul showed with the "Peace and safety" of 1 Thess.5.

You have so many things wrong here, it would take a book to straighten it out. Go back and read 1 Thes 5. We are out of here BEFORE the wrath. And then read the 6th seal events, and see that HIS WRATH is about to being THEN. Then read the 5th and 6th trumpet. OF COURSE this is God's wrath. WAKE UP!! Take off your preconceived glasses and just read it. God's wrath begins with the trumpets.

And Jesus does NOT COME to end "that tribulation." Where on earth do you read that? He comes to face the battle of ARmageddon, which is AFTER the 70th week has finished.

Did you not read of all the destruction that came with the trumpets and vials, BEFORE Jesus came? You are back to rearranging John's chronology!! STOP IT!! You are not allowed that priviledge. Do you think God was confused when He had John write, and just mixed it all up to makeit confusing? If you take off your preconceptions, it is in PERFECT ORDER. John has 7 seals broken first, then seven trumpet sound, then, 7 vials are poured out. Then, AFTER ALL THAT, Jesus comes back. All of the destruction is OVER by the time He comes, except for the battle of ARmageddon.

The days of great tribulation is a time of WAR against the saints. Not war with other nations. You are right there. Neither would I call it a time of false peace. That would be before the midpoint and before the abomination. It is a time of God's judgment and wrath.

Also, that dragon will broken without hand, meaning without OUR hand. It is Christ Jesus with His army of angels that is going to fight for us. And that's what ends the 42 months, or 1260 days, or 3 and 1/2 years last half of the tribulation. That's why the 7th trumpet happens at the END of the 1260 days prophecy of God's two witnesses, as written in Rev.11

Where in the world do you come up with this stuff? It certainly is not in my bible. John and the Holy Spirit put the 7th trumpet in chapter 11, because it happens at the midpoint. He put the battle of ARmageddon in chapter 19 because it comes AFTER the 70th week. Veteran, WHY IS IT that you find such a NEED to rearrange? Don't answer that - and I will answer for you: it is your preconceptions: they are all WRONG. It is not the dragon that will be broken without hand, it is the BEAST, the MAN, the ANTICHRIST, AND the false prophet. Those two MEN are cast into the lake of fire. The Dragon, Satan is bound for 1000 years. It is the kindom of the beast, AND the beast that is broken. Of course, the false religon he spead around the world will also be destroyed. Islam will be gone forever! Hallelujah!!!

Veteran, may I suggest, after you get over being indignant and angry, that you read what I have written very carefully, and TRY to see that it is exactly what John has intended.

Coop

 

[veteran]

Sorry, Veteran, but here your preconceived glasses have blurred your vision. You mentioned Dan 8: 25.

Dan 8:
23And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

24And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

25And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

The first thing I want you to notice, is that this is a MAN, not a kingdom. Notice, "A KING...shall stand up."

I don't know why I even bother, since it's obvious you can't read what I've written. Verse 25 shows HOW that false one will destroy, and it's using PEACE, not literal all out war like WWIII. And I never said the "vile person" of Dan.11 was the FIRST beast of Rev.13 which is a world system. The vile person is the "another beast" of Rev.13:11, the dragon, an entity, antichrist.

Of course the beast of Rev. 13 will have a kingdom, but that kingdom WILL HAVE A KING. And that king will be the beast of Rev 13, and the "man of sin" that Paul Mentions.

Adjust your reading glasses, I already showed that in my previous post. But more specifically, that king will be the "another beast" of Rev.13:11, the dragon entity. The dragon is not a world system or kingdom. There's 2 beasts mentioned in Rev.13, and they are different.

It is a MAN that performs the abomination, NOT a kingdom. How could a kingdom walk into the Holy Place of a temple? And you think I am confused? But, back to these verses: "And in the latter time of their kingdom..."

You are confused, because I never said it was a kingdom that sets the abomination of desolation. It's an entity that does that, the dragon, the "another beast" of Rev.13:11, an entity, the same one that does "great signs" and "miracles" in the sight of men, the same one our Lord Jesus warned about in Matt.24:24 and Mark 13:22, specifically 'a pseudo Christ' ("false Christs" per the Greek).

How then can you say that this "false prophet" is Satan? No! No! No!! Both the beast AND the false prophet are human beings, MEN. But at the abmination, the beast man (antichrist) will be possessed by Satan. That is why the false prophet can only do his wonders when in close proximity to the beast.

What makes you think Satan is not a 'man'? That's what God calls him in Isaiah 14. It's because he also was made with the image of 'man'. And Rev.12:7-9 already told you that Satan is cast down to the earth with his angels to go persecute the woman (Israel). But I guess you simply chose to bypass that revelation. So YES! YES! YES!, Satan himself is coming to this earth, and our Lord said woe to those on the earth, because the devil is cast down among you, and knows he has but a short time. This is HOW that "another beast" of Rev.13:11 forward will do miracles and work great signs and wonders on the earth, and why MANY will bow in worship to him, because he will be doing supernatural wonders on the earth. That is also our Lord's Message in Matthew 24:24 about the false messiah He warned us about. And don't forget, the title of 'dragon' is another title for Satan himself as written in Rev.12:9 and 20:2.

Miss this did ya?...

Rev 12:9
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
(KJV)

Rev 12:12
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
(KJV)

 

[veteran]

And let's get the 7th trumpet timing right too, while we're at it...

Rev 11:3-15
3 And I will give power unto My two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

All this is on the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period which began in Rev.9. That's EASY to know, because further down here we are told the 2nd woe ends just prior to the 7th trumpet. God's two witnesses are given to prophesy for 1260 days, the same timing as the 42 months the dragon is given to work, and also the same time the Gentiles are given to tread the courts of the temple. AFTER that 1260 of their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit (i.e., Satan), will kill them and leave their bodies laying in the street.

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

After 3 days a 1/2, they are resurrected by God.

13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

In THAT SAME HOUR a great earthquake happens there, which is the end of the 2nd woe period - 6th trumpet. Then the 3rd woe is IMMEDIATELY NEXT.

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.(KJV)

Then the 7th trumpet sounds, and all the kingdoms of this world become those of Christ's, and He begins His Milliennial reign. That's what it means when He reigns for ever and ever.

5th trumpet - 1st woe: locusts begin their work upon the earth.
6th trumpet - 2nd woe: two witnesses testimony for 1260 days; they are killed; after 3 and 1/2 days they are resurrected; a great earthquake happens in Jerusalem. End of 2nd woe.
7th trumpet - 3rd woe: Christ's coming and His wrath poured out, and He begins His thousand years reign.

Just because those 7th trumpet events are given in Rev.11 instead of later in Rev.16-19 does not mean some other timing for the 7th trumpet like you've said in other posts. I've tried to show you not all events given in Revelation flow according to chapter numbers. Even the 6th seal events at the end of Revelation chapter 6 should have shown you that.

That 7th trumpet of Rev.11:15 is the SAME "last trump" which Apostle Paul taught in 1 Cor.15 with the resurrection timing and Christ's coming. That word "last" in the Greek means the farthest one out, and there's only 7 trumpets mentioned in our Lord's Book of Revelation. But it seems some here have problem with counting from 1 to 7.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

The word "wonders" is Greek 'semeion' meaning per the Strong's 'an indication, especially ceremonially or SUPERNATURALLY.' (Strong's no. 4592). It's the same Greek word used for great signs and miracles throughout the NT. It's the same Greek word in Rev.13:14 rendered "miracles".

Raising the dead, healing the lame, those are miracles. Firing off a rocket is not. So don't tell me about using common sense when obviously you haven't paid attention to what's written there!

As ive said.Firing rockets though the air.
Daniel 11;25
And he shall stir up his power and his courage ahainst the king of the south with a great army,and the king of the south shall be stirred up to battle with a very great and mighty army,but he shall not standf,for they shall forcast devices against him.

I do pay attention to what is written

Matter of fact ,I run to and from though the scriptures and my knowledge is increased.

Daniel 12;4
But thou ,O Daniel ,shut up the words,and seal the book,even to the time of the end,Many shall run to and from,and knowledge shall be increased.


There nothing like comparing scripture to increase knowledge.You should try it sometime.

PS If you want to read about both Iraqi wars or the beriut bombinmgs.You should try reading the rest of this chapter
,Its full of goodies.

 

[lecoop]

Sorry, Veteran, but here your preconceived glasses have blurred your vision. You mentioned Dan 8: 25.

Dan 8:
23And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

24And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

25And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

The first thing I want you to notice, is that this is a MAN, not a kingdom. Notice, "A KING...shall stand up."

I don't know why I even bother, since it's obvious you can't read what I've written. Verse 25 shows HOW that false one will destroy, and it's using PEACE, not literal all out war like WWIII. And I never said the "vile person" of Dan.11 was the FIRST beast of Rev.13 which is a world system. The vile person is the "another beast" of Rev.13:11, the dragon, an entity, antichrist.

Of course the beast of Rev. 13 will have a kingdom, but that kingdom WILL HAVE A KING. And that king will be the beast of Rev 13, and the "man of sin" that Paul Mentions.

Adjust your reading glasses, I already showed that in my previous post. But more specifically, that king will be the "another beast" of Rev.13:11, the dragon entity. The dragon is not a world system or kingdom. There's 2 beasts mentioned in Rev.13, and they are different.

It is a MAN that performs the abomination, NOT a kingdom. How could a kingdom walk into the Holy Place of a temple? And you think I am confused? But, back to these verses: "And in the latter time of their kingdom..."

You are confused, because I never said it was a kingdom that sets the abomination of desolation. It's an entity that does that, the dragon, the "another beast" of Rev.13:11, an entity, the same one that does "great signs" and "miracles" in the sight of men, the same one our Lord Jesus warned about in Matt.24:24 and Mark 13:22, specifically 'a pseudo Christ' ("false Christs" per the Greek).

How then can you say that this "false prophet" is Satan? No! No! No!! Both the beast AND the false prophet are human beings, MEN. But at the abmination, the beast man (antichrist) will be possessed by Satan. That is why the false prophet can only do his wonders when in close proximity to the beast.

What makes you think Satan is not a 'man'? That's what God calls him in Isaiah 14. It's because he also was made with the image of 'man'. And Rev.12:7-9 already told you that Satan is cast down to the earth with his angels to go persecute the woman (Israel). But I guess you simply chose to bypass that revelation. So YES! YES! YES!, Satan himself is coming to this earth, and our Lord said woe to those on the earth, because the devil is cast down among you, and knows he has but a short time. This is HOW that "another beast" of Rev.13:11 forward will do miracles and work great signs and wonders on the earth, and why MANY will bow in worship to him, because he will be doing supernatural wonders on the earth. That is also our Lord's Message in Matthew 24:24 about the false messiah He warned us about. And don't forget, the title of 'dragon' is another title for Satan himself as written in Rev.12:9 and 20:2.

Miss this did ya?...

Rev 12:9
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
(KJV)

Rev 12:12
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
(KJV)

Sorry, but Satan is a fallen angel, NOT A MAN.

How do you explain that the beast (as a man) and the false prophet (as a man) are cast into the lake of fire. (See Rev 19:20)

THEN LATER, Satan is caught and locked in the bottomless pit for 1000 years.
Then later still, Satan is cast into the lake of fire, where the beast and false prophet ARE.

Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

What? You believe there are TWO devils? Two firey red dragons?
No, you are totally mistaken. The false prophet is a MAN. Did you ever wonder why he had to be within sight of the beast to do his wonders? It is because Satan, the dragon is INSIDE THE BODY of the 1st beast, possessing him. Therefore your idea that the second beast is the dragon is totally impossible according to the above scriptures. Only God is omnipresent.

You seem to get farther and farther from the truth of scriptures.

The vial person Daniel was referring to came from the end of Alexander's kingdom and was Antiochus Epiphanes, NOT the second beast of Revelation.

It seems you are going against tradition here. All my life I have heard that the FIRST beast was the Antichrist, but you seem to be insisting that the false prophet is the antichrist. So, so you think it is the false prophet that commits the abomination? If so, you have a serious problem, because he is the 2nd beast, and he does not show up until AFTER the abomination. Again, John did not say that He saw TWO beasts arising at the same time. The second beast is the second beast, because he shows up ....second.
Of course they will both have a spirit of antichrist - but ONLY ONE of them is Paul's "man of sin" and it is the first beast, not the second.

Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Did you notice that by this time, John has brough up TWO beasts, and here, later just says "beast" as if we are to know which of the two it is. Why would John do that? Because it is understood that "beast" without anything else to idendify, is the FIRST beast, not the second. You say this is a kingdom, and of course it is. But this kingdom, like any other, has a KING at the top. That king is also know as 'the beast." "Beast" refers to both the kingdom AND its king.

Dan 7
8I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

A KING has a mouth and speaks: a kingdom does not. A KING has eyes like a mans; a kingdom does not.

11I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

A King has a voice and speaks; and kingdom does not. A KING can be slain; a kingdom cannot.
So is this the first beast, or is it the second? It is the first. He is a king with a kingdom.

21I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

Maybe I can see why you think as you do: Rev. 13 says it is the second beast that causes the image to be made, and the mark, and causes those that refuse the mark to be put to death.

Rev 13:
15. ...and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

But who will do that actually hunting for people, and forcing them to the gallows? The beast cannot do this on his own, nor can the false prophet. It is the armies at the beast's command that does it. Dan. 7 says, "he shall subdue three kings." One does not do this alone; it takes an army.

Since you think the second beast is Satan Himself, they do you say that this little horn is the first beast?

Veteran, in my entire 63 years, all as one who attended church regularly, I have NEVER heard anyone say that Satan was a man. I have never read it before today. The bible tells us that He was an angel before he fell. So you tell us - HOW did he get from an angel to being a man?

Coop

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

The kingdom that was,and then was not and is once more,is Israel.
Jesus said the jewish leaders were the sons of the Devil.Dont you believe him?

 

[lecoop]

Sorry, but a trumpet blast takes less than a minute. Then it is over. But, it is like a key that allows access to new events.
Rev 8 ends with the "woe woe woe."
Rev 9 begins with trumpet 5 as the first of the three woes

Rev 9
12One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter. .

This is a statement of fact: the first woe, accomplished at the 5th trumpet is over.

This is woe #2:
13And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
14Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
15And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.


This is the 6th trumpet: to kill one third of the men. When this is accomplished, the 6th trumpet is finished. The next thing mentioned will just be another event, but not a part of the 6th trumpet.

Chapter 10 is not a part of the 6th trumpet. It comes after the 6th trumpet, but not a part of it. Included in chapter 10 is a prophecy about the 7th trumpet, the very next one.

As an asside, this little prophecy of the 7th trumpet, would make little sense here if it was 3 1/2 years away. But it would make PERFECT sense if it was one of the very next events to happen.

Next, John is told to measure the temple: again, NOT A PART of the 6th trumpet, but just a event that comes after.

14The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

This is simply a statement of fact: John is counting down the three woes. Of course the second woe has passed, since it was the 6th trumpet that may have taken some time to kill 1/3 of the world's population. This is NO WAY means that the earthquake in verse was a PART of the 2nd woe.

God's two witnesses are given to prophesy for 1260 days, the same timing as the 42 months the dragon is given to work, and also the same time the Gentiles are given to tread the courts of the temple. AFTER that 1260 of their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit (i.e., Satan), will kill them and leave their bodies laying in the street.

Yes, I agree, all of the five mentions of the last 3 1/2 years are parallel, or nearly so. The first two may start a few days before the others.

13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

You should insert a page break, or some other kind of break between verse 13 and 14, for they are NOT part of the same thought.

Veteran, do you know what a parenthesis (Either or both of the upright curved lines, ( ), used to mark off explanatory or qualifying remarks in writing) is? Do you understand that you can read the sentense without the parenthesis?

Veteran, do you know what a parenthesis is? Do you see that it makes perfect sense without the parenthesis?

It is a jr. league softball game: here are the words of the narrator:

Sally has just hit a ground ball to second. Second baseman fumbled it,
the short stop picks it up, throws to first base, Sally is safe on first.
The ball went way over the first baseman's head.

As you know, sally is one of the leagues best hitters. This season
she has had 21 RBI's. But last season, she broke her ankle, and
had to sit out most of the season, which was most unfortunate
for her and the team.

Now Mary is up. Swing and a miss! It was a curve ball.

I did not put a parenthesis around that middle paragraph, but it really
has nothing to do with THIS game. It is OUT OF TIME sequence for this game.
It happened last year. It is a parenthesis, even without the () marks.

John does the SAME THING:


Revelation 11
1And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
3And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

You see, John is writing a numbered sequence narrative. From the first seal up to now it had been a numbered sequence. He has written thing up to here in PERFECT chronological timing: seals 1,2,3,4,5,6 (interval or intermission) 7.

Then the trumpets: 1,2,3,4,5,6

Therefore, why would anyone think he would change here?
This is John's chronology:

Trumpets 1,2,3,4,5,6 (intermission - 7 - intermission continued)

But what we disagree with, is WHAT is in this intermission.
John has timing in the intermission too, AND chronology.

Midpoint Intermission is as follows:

(1) First chapter 10

(2) Next, John is told to measure the temple. (The gentiles will trample for 42 months.) This is the FIRST HINT that John is at the midpoint in his narrative, for the 42 months start HERE, right where John mentions them.

(3) Next, the two witnesses show up. (They will testify for 1260 days) (the rest of their story is a parenthesis -() - and NOT in the chronology of the trumpets) It is exactly like the parenthesis about Sally. Her broken ankle had NOTHING to do with the current game.

(4) Next, the 7th trumpet is sounded. (it is sounded only 3 1/2 days AFTER the two witnesses begin) It is sounded EXACTLY at the midpoint.

(5) Next, worship in heaven, for the Kingdoms of the world have become the kingdoms of our Lord.

(6) Next, () a tiny vision of the PAST, back to when Jesus was born. It is EASY to see these five verses are NOT in John's sequence of events. Rev 12:1-5 It is another parenthesis and NOT IN the chronology.

(7) NExt, the woman flees - why is she fleeing? She has just seen the abomination. (THIS IS SECONDS AFTER THE ABOMINATION.)

(8) WAR in heaven. (THIS IS SECONDS AFTER THE ABOMINATION.)

(9) The devil, not cast down, goes after the woman that is fleeing. (she is on foot, and has probably not gotten far.)

(10) God gives supernatural protection to the woman, to protect her from the devil (and the beast?)
I suspect it will be like a wall of fire as in the Exodus.

(11) the dragon goes to make war with the remnant - all those on earth that love Jesus and God. But, HOW does the dragon do this? I say he has possessed the beast. So it is the BEAST - empowered by the dragon - that makes the war on the saints.

(12) John sees the beast come up from the sea: the beast is putting his killing machine together. (this is still VERY near the midpoint of the week.

(13) the beast is given 42 months of authority. (PROOF that John is very near the midpoint.) The rest of chapter 13 is again, a parenthesis. Chapter 14 does NOT being 42 months later. The 42 months were given as INFORMATION, not to be played out in linear time where it was written. It is the same with ALL of these 5 time frames: they are NOT played out right where they are written - they are only mentioned. However, the TIMING will begin where they are written.

(14) Chapter 14 is STILL AT THE MIDPOINT. John is STILL in the "Midpoint intermission," and has MUCH to cover before he can get to the vials.

(15) Chapter 15 is moving along some unknown period of time into the second half of the week. It is the preparations for the 7 vials.

In THAT SAME HOUR a great earthquake happens there, which is the end of the 2nd woe period - 6th trumpet. Then the 3rd woe is IMMEDIATELY NEXT.

WRONG WRONG WRONG!!! You are making a parenthesis as REAL TIME. That is a MISTAKE. This time is parallel with the other 4 periods of time. This is the SAME earthqUake as the one at the 7th vial! It takes place 1260 days, plus 3 1/2 days AFTER the two witnesses are introduced. It takes place 1260 days after the exact midpoint. It takes place at the END of the 42 months of the beast's authority. It takes place at the END of the 1260 days of the woman fleeing.

The end of the second woe was the 6th trumpet. It was not a "period," it was an event.
Yes, of course the third woe comes quickly after the second woe: the third woe is the 7th trumpet, which IS THE KEY TO THE POURING OUT OF THE VIALS.

Starts in chapter 11
..........................Imagine 42 dots...........This is the 42 months of trampling........................
..........................Imagine 1260 dots........This is the time of testifying.......ends with earthquake
..........................Imagine 1260 dots.........This is days of fleeing / protection.......................
..........................Imagine 42 dots............This is the time of authority..............................

Ends in chapter 16 with the final vial. All these times run parallel. They all start when they are written.
NONE of them are linear as they are written; in other words, the next verse is NOT 1260 days later. The next chapter is NOT 3 1/2 years later. John's chronology is in the INTRODUCTION to each of these events.

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.(KJV)

Then the 7th trumpet sounds, and all the kingdoms of this world become those of Christ's, and He begins His Milliennial reign. That's what it means when He reigns for ever and ever.

I can agree with this, because I believe the change in millenias will be at the exact midpoint of the week.

5th trumpet - 1st woe: locusts begin their work upon the earth.
6th trumpet - 2nd woe: two witnesses testimony for 1260 days; they are killed; after 3 and 1/2 days they are resurrected; a great earthquake happens in Jerusalem. End of 2nd woe.

WRONG. You are making a parenthesis as real time. It is NOT real time. The end of the 2nd woe was the end of the 6th trumpet, and the end of killing 1/3 of the people. You are reading WAY TOO MUCH in to the simple words, "the second woe has passed." Of course it has passed, for it was completed in the previous chapter. So the two witnesses come AFTER the second woe, but BEFORE the third woe. They are NOT one of the three woes.

7th trumpet - 3rd woe: Christ's coming and His wrath poured out, and He begins His thousand years reign.

TOTALLY WRONG. You cannot find His coming in chapter 11. It is your imagination, because you want to make a parenthesis into REAL TIME. The 7th trumpet sounds within weeks or months of the 6th trumpet, NOT 1260 days later. And it marks the exact midpoint.

Just because those 7th trumpet events are given in Rev.11 instead of later in Rev.16-19 does not mean some other timing for the 7th trumpet like you've said in other posts. I've tried to show you not all events given in Revelation flow according to chapter numbers. Even the 6th seal events at the end of Revelation chapter 6 should have shown you that.

If you have a great desire to rearrange, then of course you will say they are not in order. But the truth is, THEY ARE in ORDER. (if you make the story of the two witnesses as a parenthesis, as John intended.)
All the events of chapter 11 will happen VERY NEAR the exact midpoint of the week. Sorry, Veteran, but you are sincerely WRONG.

That 7th trumpet of Rev.11:15 is the SAME "last trump" which Apostle Paul taught in 1 Cor.15 with the resurrection timing and Christ's coming. That word "last" in the Greek means the farthest one out, and there's only 7 trumpets mentioned in our Lord's Book of Revelation. But it seems some here have problem with counting from 1 to 7.

No, you are mistaken again. Many have tried to make them the same, but they are not. One is the trump of God. The other is an angel's trump. One is sounded in heaven. One is sounded in the air above the earth. One is sounded BEFORE the 70th week begins, and one is sounded to MARK the exact midpoint of the week. No one has a problem of counting to seven. But Paul's last trump is the last trump OF A TOTALLY DIFFERENT SERIES.

Veteran, you may be very sure of your self, but you are very wrong. When (or if) you hear Paul's trump, before anything else has occured, you will know.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

The kingdom that was,and then was not and is once more,is Israel.
Jesus said the jewish leaders were the sons of the Devil.Dont you believe him?

Kingdoms or nations do NOT ascend out of the bottomless pit. Devils do, and Satan does. Nations do not go to "perdition." People do, devils do, and Satan will.

This is speaking of a man, possessed by Satan. It is not the man, nor a nation that comes out of the bottomless pit: it is Satan. But he possessed the beast. Before he possessed the beast, he was not. But before this, he possessed another: Judas Iscariot. So then a beast was. But when Judas died, he was not. When Satan comes out the bottomless pit, and possessed the man of sin, then the beast will be present once again. It has NOTHING to do with Israel, except all this happens during Daniel's 70th week, for the purpose of scattering the Jews/Hebrews, until they get so desperate they will call for God's help.

Coop

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

The kingdom that was,and then was not and is once more,is Israel.
Jesus said the jewish leaders were the sons of the Devil.Dont you believe him?

Kingdoms or nations do NOT ascend out of the bottomless pit. Devils do, and Satan does. Nations do not go to "perdition." People do, devils do, and Satan will.

This is speaking of a man, possessed by Satan. It is not the man, nor a nation that comes out of the bottomless pit: it is Satan. But he possessed the beast. Before he possessed the beast, he was not. But before this, he possessed another: Judas Iscariot. So then a beast was. But when Judas died, he was not. When Satan comes out the bottomless pit, and possessed the man of sin, then the beast will be present once again. It has NOTHING to do with Israel, except all this happens during Daniel's 70th week, for the purpose of scattering the Jews/Hebrews, until they get so desperate they will call for God's help.

Coop

According to scripture the beast is a kingdom.Not a man.Not Satan
Daniel 7;23
Thus he said,The forth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth,which shall be diverse from all kingdoms,and shall devour the whole earth,and shall tread it down,and break it in pieces.



Its a kingdom.
It was,then it was not.And yet it is.

 

[lecoop]

Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

The kingdom that was,and then was not and is once more,is Israel.
Jesus said the jewish leaders were the sons of the Devil.Dont you believe him?

Kingdoms or nations do NOT ascend out of the bottomless pit. Devils do, and Satan does. Nations do not go to "perdition." People do, devils do, and Satan will.

This is speaking of a man, possessed by Satan. It is not the man, nor a nation that comes out of the bottomless pit: it is Satan. But he possessed the beast. Before he possessed the beast, he was not. But before this, he possessed another: Judas Iscariot. So then a beast was. But when Judas died, he was not. When Satan comes out the bottomless pit, and possessed the man of sin, then the beast will be present once again. It has NOTHING to do with Israel, except all this happens during Daniel's 70th week, for the purpose of scattering the Jews/Hebrews, until they get so desperate they will call for God's help.

Coop

According to scripture the beast is a kingdom.Not a man.Not Satan
Daniel 7;23
Thus he said,The forth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth,which shall be diverse from all kingdoms,and shall devour the whole earth,and shall tread it down,and break it in pieces.



Its a kingdom.
It was,then it was not.And yet it is.

Dan 7
17These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.


Coop

 

[Shilohsfoal]

17These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.


Coop

No they are not four kings.They all four are empires.
The fourth is the broken empire of the middle east.Today is is broken up into many countries with many kings.It is written that the ten horns upon the beast is ten kings and there is a smaller horn there as well.These horns came up after Great britian was broken and the little horn that came out of that empire is there as well.It is diverse from the others as it is written of it.It also has a stouter look than his fellows as it is written.It subdued three of those other horns when it took control of Jerusalem.

Daniel 7;24
And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise;and anoth shall rise after them;and he shall be diverse from the first,and he shall subdue three kings.

You have watched this take place ,yet you could not see it and because you feel you know it all,you still will not be able to see it .So you teach others it has not taken place and you also teach others that the beast wants to destroy Israel when the fact is the beast calls itself by the name of Israel.

The beast is not antisemetic.The beast is antichrist.

 

[lecoop]

17These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.


Coop

No they are not four kings.They all four are empires.
The fourth is the broken empire of the middle east.Today is is broken up into many countries with many kings.It is written that the ten horns upon the beast is ten kings and there is a smaller horn there as well.These horns came up after Great britian was broken and the little horn that came out of that empire is there as well.It is diverse from the others as it is written of it.It also has a stouter look than his fellows as it is written.It subdued three of those other horns when it took control of Jerusalem.

Daniel 7;24
And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise;and anoth shall rise after them;and he shall be diverse from the first,and he shall subdue three kings.

You have watched this take place ,yet you could not see it and because you feel you know it all,you still will not be able to see it .So you teach others it has not taken place and you also teach others that the beast wants to destroy Israel when the fact is the beast calls itself by the name of Israel.

The beast is not antisemetic.The beast is antichrist.

How is it, you can read in black and white, right in front of you, that these great beasts are four kings,
and you look at it, and you read it, and then you deny the word of God?

How can you do that? Well, I can tell you how: it is your preconceived glasses.

I guess you also missed this verse in the same chapter?

11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. 12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, [3 kings] they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

Now, compare verse 11 in Daniel 7 with this:

Rev 19
20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

After the beast is taken, these other 3 kings will die also, but perhaps a little more than a year later.

Coop

 

[Shilohsfoal]

After the beast is taken, these other 3 kings will die also, but perhaps a little more than a year later.

Coop

Oh my.I can almost understand how someone might not know who the last three beasts are but I think you might be the first person Ive ever seen who didnt know who and what the first beast is.

You dont know what beast was given the heart of a man?Come on now,be serious.

 

[Andrew]

As usual, Coop is the author of confusion.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

The devided empire.=The fourth kingdom upon earth

Daniel 2;40-41
And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron;forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdue all things;and as iron that breaketh all these,shall it break in pieces and bruise.
And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes,part of potters clay,and part of iron,the kingdom shall be devided;but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron,forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

Daniel 7;23-24
Thus he said the fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth,which shall be diverse from all kingdoms,and shall devour the whole earth,and shall tread it down,and break it in pieces.
And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise;and another shall rise after them;and he shall be diverse from the first,and he shall subdue three kings.


Both are speaking of this devided empire.If anyone is intersted in knowledge,keep a watch on the last few seconds of this short video(around 1920)
.It is a map of all the empires that have risen in the middle east.
All four beasts that have risen in the middle east as well as the five kings(empires)that came from the west.All five kings(empires) from the west was prophecied of in Daniel 8;8


http://www.mapsofwar.com/ind/imperial-history.html

 

[lecoop]

The devided empire.=The fourth kingdom upon earth

Daniel 2;40-41
And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron;forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdue all things;and as iron that breaketh all these,shall it break in pieces and bruise.
And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes,part of potters clay,and part of iron,the kingdom shall be devided;but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron,forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

Daniel 7;23-24
Thus he said the fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth,which shall be diverse from all kingdoms,and shall devour the whole earth,and shall tread it down,and break it in pieces.
And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise;and another shall rise after them;and he shall be diverse from the first,and he shall subdue three kings.


Both are speaking of this devided empire.If anyone is intersted in knowledge,keep a watch on the last few seconds of this short video(around 1920)
.It is a map of all the empires that have risen in the middle east.
All four beasts that have risen in the middle east as well as the five kings(empires)that came from the west.All five kings(empires) from the west was prophecied of in Daniel 8;8


http://www.mapsofwar.com/ind/imperial-history.html

What you have shown is true, but Daniel's truth comes in layers: You missed this:

17These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

This is directly from the angel. Revelation tells us about the same thing, saying there are seven mountians AND there are seven kings. Always remember, Kingdoms have KINGS.

And to show that this is for the end, Daniel tells us that one of these kings will be cast into the fire, and the other three's life will be spared for over a year.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

After the beast is taken, these other 3 kings will die also, but perhaps a little more than a year later.

Coop

Oh my.I can almost understand how someone might not know who the last three beasts are but I think you might be the first person Ive ever seen who didnt know who and what the first beast is.

You dont know what beast was given the heart of a man?Come on now,be serious.

You are looking at the wrong layer. This is also and END TIME vision.

17These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

18But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

Sorry, but no saints took the "kingdom" back then. This is speaking of a time yet future to us.
And again:

21I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

22Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

25And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Where else do we see a 3 1/2 year period of time? Oh yes, it is in Revelation! Where else do we read about the saints being worn out or someone prevailing over or overcoming the saints? Oh yes, that is in Revelation too. But speaking of the 70th week.

Coop