The Bible Aloneâ€ÂSola Scriptura†But thats not in the bible

[Vic C.]

But purgatory and Mary has not?

If these subjects are fair game, and re-occuring on a monthly basis, then explain why Sola Scriptura is the Hindu sacred cow?

Yes, those subjects too. Please don't jump to conclusions like that thinking I only meant this topic. I caught it at the very beginning and mine was the third post. No sense in me making a statement like that after three or four pages.

If the idea of debating controversial subjects is becoming an ordeal for anyone, please, by all means, step back, take a break from posting until cooler heads prevail.

Thanks,
Vic

 

[Veritas]

francisdesales, yes, I agree one should not dispose of the Body of Christ, we are family. I think it is important to share our gifts as well; for others, and ultimately for God. As far as seeing things in the correct light goes, I use the Word to do that. I understand that people can make diffferent interpretations, but I believe scripture can be plainly read and understood. I've said this before, children are the ones who get it best.

I see no problem with useful forms of prayers and such, as long as I can understand the meaning behind it. I think its pretty easy to get wrapped up in rituals and tradition and not really know what is going on. And I know God doesn't get too happy about that:

I hate, I despise your religious feasts; I cannot stand you assemblies. ...Though you bring choice fellowship offerings, I will have no regard for them. Away with the noise of your songs! I will not listen to the music of your harps. Amos 5:21-23

It seems you know Christ is really what's important, and I'm not accusing you personally of insincere worship, I pray that you are sincere and have a personal relationship with Jesus. But I have seen people within the Catholic church place certain things from "tradition" on a higher pedestal than Christ and focus only on that.

 

[golfjack]

reply

John 20:23 in the words of Jesus says If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained. This verse has to do with the authorirty of the believer, and is can be cross referrenced with Matt. 16:19. Catholics use these verses as a basis for their stance of many issues of the Bible.

Therefore, what does this mean? It means that the keys are given to the church ( body of Christ), and not just the Catholic church. It means the gates of hell will not prevail against the church, with Christ as the head, and believers as the Body. The Body cannot operate without a Head. Heaven Forgiveness and heaven are opened now. No more vail. It's the great anouncement that one can receive forgiveness and be able to enter into heaven. If we go out and preach the good news, people are either forgivern by accepting the message of the Gospel or if they don't, there is no forgiveness and theirr sins will be retained until they do.

My friends, this is what the early church did and still should be preached. It started with 120 and grew to 3 thousand and then to five thousand, and on and on. Do you Catholic's really believe that they set up confession booths to receive forgiveness? I say, complete nonsense.



May God bless, Golfjack

 

[francisdesales]

Re: reply

John 20:23 in the words of Jesus says If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained. This verse has to do with the authorirty of the believer, and is can be cross referrenced with Matt. 16:19. Catholics use these verses as a basis for their stance of many issues of the Bible.

Ridiculous. Jesus was speaking to eleven men. He breathed on THOSE men, not every believer in the land. This is a desperate attempt to do away with what God has created and set forth for the sake of the rest of the Church, the ministry of reconciliation.

Therefore, what does this mean? It means that the keys are given to the church ( body of Christ), and not just the Catholic church.

Only Peter the Rock was given the keys. Again, you are going beyond what is written in a desperate attempt to drag down what God has established for His own reasons.

It means the gates of hell will not prevail against the church, with Christ as the head, and believers as the Body. The Body cannot operate without a Head. Heaven Forgiveness and heaven are opened now. No more vail. It's the great anouncement that one can receive forgiveness and be able to enter into heaven. If we go out and preach the good news, people are either forgivern by accepting the message of the Gospel or if they don't, there is no forgiveness and theirr sins will be retained until they do.

Another assumption not borne out by what is written. While the first part, I will agree with you, Christ is the Head of the Body. This makes Peter and his successor the vicar, the representative of Christ. He has no power outside of what has been given to him. HE was told to feed the sheep. HIS sheep. That requires some meditation, I think.

My friends, this is what the early church did and still should be preached. It started with 120 and grew to 3 thousand and then to five thousand, and on and on. Do you Catholic's really believe that they set up confession booths to receive forgiveness? I say, complete nonsense.

You don't know much about Church history. There were public confessions before the turn of the first century. The early Church understood John 20 much differently then your twisted eigesis. Because the discipline has softened, you complain? Do you realize that when a person committed a grievious sin after Baptism, they would be told to don sack clothes and wait outside the Church until the Easter Vigil, sometimes years later? Much like 1 Cor 5. This was serious stuff. Now, with private confessions, we don't have such harsh punishments.

Would you like to return to that era? There is no pleasing some people.

Regards

 

[Heidi]

Re: The Bible Aloneâ€ÂSola Scriptura†But thats not in the bib

You are making a big assumption there, Heidi. Where does it say anything about the Bible = Gospel in 2 Cor 11:4? Paul's Gospel included EVERYTHING he taught, both orally and in written form, as per 2 Thes 2:15.

The Gospel is the Good News, the teachings of the Apostles. It is related in the Scriptures, but not CONFINED to the Scriptures. That is presumed by your statement, but not spoken of in Scriptures. As a matter of fact, it says the opposite...

Regards

:o You know very well that Paul is talking about what the disciples and apostles preached. The bible = scripture as Jesus tells us when he refers to scripture. And Jesus is not talking about the Code of Hamurabi or the Egyptian Book of the Dead but about the OT. :roll: And Paul passes on Christ's words. So you are in error again.

Again, any teaching that is different than what Paul and the apostles preached, is a false gospel.That means that any made up stories about the life of Christ and his teachings that are not in the bible, cannot be trusted. As Peter tells us in 2 Peter 2:3, "In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them and their destruction has not been sleeping." It really takes effort to twist those words into things they do not say. So why do it?

Jesus also tells us "for you have one teacher and that is the Christ." So what about his words do you not believe? :o

 

[golfjack]

reply

What you preach is absolutely ridiculous. I don't want any part of the Catholic church period.




May God bless, Golfjack

 

[Heidi]

Re: reply

What you preach is absolutely ridiculous. I don't want any part of the Catholic church period.




May God bless, Golfjack

Amen. The catholics do anything they can to discredit the bible and make up their own. :roll:

 

[aj830]

That means that any made up stories about the life of Christ and his teachings that are not in the bible, cannot be trusted.

I think this needs to be got at. How can you know what is supposed to be in the Bible and what can be trusted without someone telling what books are supposed to be in the Bible is?

Amen. The catholics do anything they can to discredit the bible and make up their own.

Yes. We Catholics do anything we can to discredit the Bible :roll: That is why we have preserved it for over 1700 years. That is why we call it the Word of God. That is why Catholics have preached the Gospels for all this time. That is why the Mass consists of pretty much direct Scripture references or allusions. That is why the Catholic Church takes meticulous time to make sure that translations are correct so as not to have a false Bible. That is why each page of the Catechism has about 10 references to the Scriptures every page. Yes we Catholics do alot to discredit the Bible and make up our own.

 

[jgredline]

John 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: 23 whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

Forgiveness of sins is what the Cross is all about.....It is all about the New Covenant.....
Matthew 26:28 tells us 26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. 27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; 28 for this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. 29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.

Proclaiming the forgiveness of sins was the prominent feature of the apostolic preaching in What is the book of ACTS about? One of the main themes of this book is the Apostolic preaching and procliaming the cross and forgiveness of sins.....Jesus was giving the apostles, and by extension, the church the privilege of announcing Gods terms on how a person can receive forgiveness..... If one believes in Jesus, then a Christian has the right to announce his forgiveness....If a person rejects Jesus’ sacrifice, then a Christian can announce that that person is not forgiven.....John 20:21 is a typical passage that shows the plurality of some of the scriptures....While there are some passages that are only for the original 12 or 11 apostles depending on how legalistic one wants to get....

 

[jgredline]

Hi Folks
Just a reminder and I speak to myself as well....Lets keep the Ad hominem out and focus on the doctrine....

jg

 

[ÃÂoppleganger]

Under the Catholic Church for over a millenium, people were kept illiterate, and had no idea what the Bible even said! Weekly Church services were conducted in Latin no matter what your language was. If it wasn't for the Reformation, and people like Wycliffe, Tynsdale, Luther, Cramer, other concerned Bishops and intelligencia we would be living in the stone age still! These people gave their lives just so you could have an understandable bible in your own language, without the fear of having one! Maybe you all should read a little history and see the ordeals some of these brave and faithful men went through just so that we could read. Read the Bible. People actually use to come to masses, then read there bibles while a priest was conducting a mass in latin. Imagine the effect that would have on you just to understand what was being said. And how vigoruosly the priests in power resisted this!

 

[jgredline]

Under the Catholic Church for over a millenium, people were kept illiterate, and had no idea what the Bible even said! Weekly Church services were conducted in Latin no matter what your language was. If it wasn't for the Reformation, and people like Wycliffe, Tynsdale, Luther, Cramer, other concerned Bishops and intelligencia we would be living in the stone age still! These people gave their lives just so you could have an understandable bible in your own language, without the fear of having one! Maybe you all should read a little history and see the ordeals some of these brave and faithful men went through just so that we could read. Read the Bible. People actually use to come to masses, then read there bibles while a priest was conducting a mass in latin. Imagine the effect that would have on you just to understand what was being said. And how vigoruosly the priests in power resisted this!

A great post :smt023
Thank you !!!!!

 

[golfjack]

reply

Javier, Perhaps we could have a colloquy between the two of us on this very important discussion. Then, we could have two Catholic's discussing this topic too.

I will start by making a short statement. Catholic's use John 21:25, which says, And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen. They use this verse to justify their tradition, like Mary was sinless and purgatory exists. Well, I know the Episcopal church uses this verse to justify Homosexuality. Therefore Javier, Do you see this as very dangerous to the Word of God? People down through the centuries have tried to trump God's Word. It's kind of like what Mormans do. Would you agree that the Bible warns us about doctrines of demons? Over to you now Javier.



May God bless, Golfjack

 

[aj830]

Under the Catholic Church for over a millenium, people were kept illiterate, and had no idea what the Bible even said! Weekly Church services were conducted in Latin no matter what your language was. If it wasn't for the Reformation, and people like Wycliffe, Tynsdale, Luther, Cramer, other concerned Bishops and intelligencia we would be living in the stone age still! These people gave their lives just so you could have an understandable bible in your own language, without the fear of having one! Maybe you all should read a little history and see the ordeals some of these brave and faithful men went through just so that we could read. Read the Bible. People actually use to come to masses, then read there bibles while a priest was conducting a mass in latin. Imagine the effect that would have on you just to understand what was being said. And how vigoruosly the priests in power resisted this!

No. The Catholic Church didn't hold people under their thumb and force them to be illiterate as you would have us believe. Why would they teach people to read the Bible and teach them Latin and letters if they didn't want them to read? For one you have to look at the time era and the culture. Depending on what time you look at it was a completley different culture and the common peseant farmer really wouldn't see the need to learn how to read. And if one could read back then one could read Latin. If one was educated one could read Latin.

Have you ever been to a Latin Mass? The Priest reads the scripture in the vernacular after it is read in Latin and the homily is given in the vernacular. This was so no matter where you went you could understand the Mass being said. A German in France could understand the Mass.

The Church was the only real teaching institution at the time. To say that people had no idea what the Bible even said is ignorant. How come the Church went through so much effort to say Mass every week with scripture in it? How come they took time to make stained glass windows or mosaics to show people the life of Christ that couldn't read?

I would like to know an instance when people used to come to Masses and read the Bible(Even though it was being read to them in Mass) considering most people didn't own a Bible due to their expense from being handwritten and the fact that most Bibles were in Latin anyway.

 

[jgredline]

Re: reply

Javier, Perhaps we could have a colloquy between the two of us on this very important discussion. Then, we could have two Catholic's discussing this topic too.

I will start by making a short statement. Catholic's use John 21:25, which says, And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen. They use this verse to justify their tradition, like Mary was sinless and purgatory exists. Well, I know the Episcopal church uses this verse to justify Homosexuality. Therefore Javier, Do you see this as very dangerous to the Word of God? People down through the centuries have tried to trump God's Word. It's kind of like what Mormans do. Would you agree that the Bible warns us about doctrines of demons? Over to you now Javier.



May God bless, Golfjack

Jack
What a great idea....As I pondered this for the past couple of hours I was reminded of this scripture that fits well with what you have said..

John 20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 but these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Verse 31 sums up what the scriptures are all about...JESUS the Messiah...

This verse reminded me of the dangers of adding or supplementing the bible with other writings that are considered inspired....

Example....Joseph Smith and the book of Mormon...If not for this blasphemes book the Mormons would not be a cult and Mormons would not be on their way to Hell.....

Example 2....The Watchtower...If not for the Watchtower the JW would also not be a cult and on their way to Hell....

Example 3...Ellen G white...The SDA church glorifies her and put her writings above even Jesus Christ in many ways....If they did away with ellen g white they would also be a great group of folks....

Here are three examples that show clearly what happens when people add to scripture....

So looking back at John 20:31 31 but these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name....iT is quite clear that these things that are written (scripture) is all we need....

What do you think Jack?

 

[francisdesales]

Under the Catholic Church for over a millenium, people were kept illiterate, and had no idea what the Bible even said!

What an ignorant thing to say. WHO started the whole idea of universities throughout Europe? WHERE did people go to receive an education during the Dark Ages and through the Middle Ages? Clearly, you have no clue about the history of education in Europe, do you.

Kept illiterate... :roll:

 

[francisdesales]

A great post :smt023
Thank you !!!!!

I hadn't realized that you were taken in by such dribble, Javier. Perhaps you should read some historical books on what happened before the Reformation.

Wow. I never would have thought that people still believe all that. :roll:

 

[francisdesales]

Re: reply

Jack
What a great idea....As I pondered this for the past couple of hours I was reminded of this scripture that fits well with what you have said..

Perhaps you should ponder this, rather than ignore it. I am beginning to see how MUCH you revere Scriptures - only the parts that support your pet theories, apparently.

Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle. 2 Thes 2:15

Ponder it and ask yourself -

WHERE IS THE VERSE THAT ABROGATES PAUL'S "STANDING FAST" TO ORAL TEACHINGS???

Sola Scriptura. A self-contradicting lie.

 

[Guest]

Re: reply

Perhaps you should ponder this, rather than ignore it. I am beginning to see how MUCH you revere Scriptures - only the parts that support your pet theories, apparently.

Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle. 2 Thes 2:15

Ponder it and ask yourself -

WHERE IS THE VERSE THAT ABROGATES PAUL'S "STANDING FAST" TO ORAL TEACHINGS???

Sola Scriptura. A self-contradicting lie.

I have always found it dangerous to provide one only verse as either the basis for a doctrine or as a rebutall.

Let's look at the fulness of the scripture you quote:

But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

14It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

15So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.

16Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace,

17comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word.

The key in understanding verse 15 is the word "taught" - notice that it is not referring to future teachings or traditions, but that we are to hold firm to the traditions which your WERE taught by word and letter.

So what has been taught to the church at Thessilonica? the answer is in 13 and 14 - the Gospel of Jesus Christ!

Yes - I agree that we are to hold to oral teachings - the oral teachings that were taught at the time of the writting of the letter - the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Ah.. Good ol Scripture that intrepets itself and provides all the teachings that we need. God is good to have inspired the Word and preserved the word!

2 Tim. 3:16

 

[golfjack]

reply

Javier, I agree with you 100 percent. I think about all the different religions of the world, like Muslems and Buddahists and many more. They have one thing in common, and that is some kind of false Prophet.

I know Fran. depends on the early church doctors and and their writings. But, Javier, couldn't they be wrong? In the first centuries Christians thought was coming back real soon. So, they got complacement and out of touch with what they learned from the Apostles and Disciples. I believe many were Jewish believers who went back to Judiasm and made new doctrines to fit their religious beliefs. They were rich in tradition, ceremony, and quite legalistic. Therefore, this is how I think the Catholic Church started. Go to Mass sometime and you will see what I mean. I believe Jesus healed so many on His days on earth, John couldn't write them all down. When we see how through the Book of Acts that many were healed, and that made them to come into a believing faith in Jesus Christ. What do you think Javier?


Fran. This verse taken into context is what Paul was warning them about the great Apostasy. He wanted then to hold fast to their faith in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. What did Paul do? He preached to them about salvation. What are the traditions? His letters about their new found Christian faith. He taught them many things. He wrote over half the New Testament. He had the Holy Spirit minister to him for at least three years before he made his Missionary trips. He wrote down exactly what the Holy Spirit wanted Him to write. Therefore, The traditions are from the Holy Spirit who guides us into all Truth.



May God bless, Golfjack