jgredline said:
Ok, Joe lets us look at a few things here....Since I have a little time now, I will humor you....First off all, Not once is there a direct quotation from any apocryphal books accepted by the Roman Catholic Church....Why is that? Not from The Lord Jesus Christ or any of the Apostles...
I have already answered that. Not ONCE does Jesus quote from Nehemiah. Nor do any other writers of the New Testament. OH NO! It must not have been accepted by the Apostles!!! Get rid of it, quick!!!
There are a number of direct quotations from the Deuterocanonical books (get the term correct, Javier. Apocryphal books are not the same thing as Deuterocanonical books) found all over the place in the writings of the Fathers. These men saw those books as inspired. First, one must understand that the Septaugint was THE Scriptures of the Apostles, not the Hebrew canon. The Septaugint contained the Deutero's. And throughout the NT, we see NUMEROUS allusions to those Wisdom writings found in the Deutero's.
This is just from Matthew. These bear a striking resemblance to each other, although they are not conclusive evidence that the NT writer borrowed from the OT writer.
Matthew 4:4 Wisdom 16:26
Matthew 4:15 1 Maccabees 5:15
Matthew 5:18 Baruch 4:1
Matthew 5:28 Sirach 9:8
Matthew 5:2ss Sirach 25:7-12
Matthew 5:4 Sirach 48:24
Matthew 6:7 Sirach 7:14
Matthew 6:9 Sirach 23:1, 4
Matthew 6:10 1 Maccabees 3:60
Matthew 6:12 Sirach 28:2
Matthew 6:13 Sirach 33:1
Matthew 6:20 Sirach 29:10s
Matthew 6:23 Sirach 14:10
Matthew 6:33 Wisdom 7:11
Matthew 7:12 Tobit 4:15
Matthew 7:12 Sirach 31:15
Matthew 7:16 Sirach 27:6
Matthew 8:11 Baruch 4:37
Matthew 8:21 Tobit 4:3
Matthew 9:36 Judith 11:19
Matthew 9:38 1 Maccabees 12:17
Matthew 10:16 Sirach 13:17
Matthew 11:14 Sirach 48:10
Matthew 11:22 Judith 16:17
Matthew 11:25 Tobit 7:17
Matthew 11:25 Sirach 51:1
Matthew 11:28 Sirach 24:19
Matthew 11:28 Sirach 51:23
Matthew 11:29 Sirach 6:24s
Matthew 11:29 Sirach 6:28s
Matthew 11:29 Sirach 51:26s
Matthew 12:4 2 Maccabees 10:3
Matthew 12:5 Sirach 40:15
Matthew 13:44 Sirach 20:30s
Matthew 16:18 Wisdom 16:13
Matthew 16:22 1 Maccabees 2:21
Matthew 16:27 Sirach 35:22
Matthew 17:11 Sirach 48:10
Matthew 18:10 Tobit 12:15
Matthew 20:2 Tobit 5:15
Matthew 22:13 Wisdom 17:2
Matthew 23:38 Tobit 14:4
Matthew 24:15 1 Maccabees 1:54
Matthew 24:15 2 Maccabees 8:17
Matthew 24:16 1 Maccabees 2:28
Matthew 25:35 Tobit 4:17
Matthew 25:36 Sirach 7:32-35
Matthew 26:38 Sirach 37:2
Matthew 27:24 Daniel 13:46
Matthew 27:43 Wisdom 2:13
Matthew 27:43 Wisdom 2:18-20
Of these, I think there is pretty clear evidence of the following...
Matt. 2:16 - Herod's decree of slaying innocent children was prophesied in Wis. 11:7 - slaying the holy innocents.
Matt. 6:19-20 - Jesus' statement about laying up for yourselves treasure in heaven follows Sirach 29:11 - lay up your treasure.
Matt.. 7:12 - Jesus' golden rule "do unto others" is the converse of Tobit 4:15 - what you hate, do not do to others.
Matt. 7:16,20 - Jesus' statement "you will know them by their fruits" follows Sirach 27:6 - the fruit discloses the cultivation.
Matt. 9:36 - the people were "like sheep without a shepherd" is same as Judith 11:19 - sheep without a shepherd.
Matt. 11:25 - Jesus' description "Lord of heaven and earth" is the same as Tobit 7:18 - Lord of heaven and earth.
Matt. 12:42 - Jesus refers to the wisdom of Solomon which was recorded and made part of the deuterocanonical books.
Matt. 16:18 - Jesus' reference to the "power of death" and "gates of Hades" references Wisdom 16:13.
Matt. 22:25; Mark 12:20; Luke 20:29 - Gospel writers refer to the canonicity of Tobit 3:8 and 7:11 regarding the seven brothers.
Matt. 24:15 - the "desolating sacrilege" Jesus refers to is also taken from 1 Macc. 1:54 and 2 Macc. 8:17.
Matt. 24:16 - let those "flee to the mountains" is taken from 1 Macc. 2:28.
Matt. 27:43 - if He is God's Son, let God deliver him from His adversaries follows Wisdom 2:18.
There are dozens and dozens of other such allusions that suggest that the writers of the New Testament were aware of and apparently utilized the wisdom found in the Deuterocanonicals. Especially prominent is James, which has over 20 such allusions in such a short book.
jgredline said:
Why is it that they are never cited with introductory phrases like ''thus says the Lord'' or ''as it is written'' or ''the Scriptures say,'' such as are typically found when canonical books are quoted?.....Hmmm, I wonder why? of all those books not once are they quoted....
Oh, Javier, if you only knew the truth of the matter...
The Church Fathers also thought they were on equal par with the Scriptures of the Hebrew canon...
"
But he ought to know that those who wish to live according to the teaching of Sacred Scripture understand the saying, 'The knowledge of the unwise is as talk without sense,' [Sirach 21:18] and have learnt 'to be ready always to give an answer to everyone that asketh us a reason for the hope that is in us.’ [1 Pt 3:15] "
Origen, Against Celsus, 7:12 (A.D. 248),in ANF, IV:615
But that we may believe on the authority of holy Scripture that such is the case, hear how in the book of Maccabees, where the mother of seven martyrs exhorts her son to endure torture, this truth is confirmed; for she says, ' ask of thee, my son, to look at the heaven and the earth, and at all things which are in them, and beholding these, to know that God made all these things when they did not exist.' [2 Maccabees 7:28]"
Origen, Fundamental Principles, 2:2 (A.D. 230),in ANF, IV:270
I wonder what Martin Luther would have thought about THAT comment from Origen...
"
And where the sacred writers say, Who exists before the ages,' and 'By whom He made the ages,’ [Heb 1:2] they thereby as clearly preach the eternal and everlasting being of the Son, even while they are designating God Himself. Thus, if Isaiah says, 'The Everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth;’ [Is 40:28] and Susanna said, 'O Everlasting God;' [Daniel 13:42-Susanna] and Baruch wrote, 'I will cry unto the Everlasting in my days,' and shortly after, 'My hope is in the Everlasting, that He will save you, and joy is come unto me from the Holy One;' [Baruch 4:20,22]"
Athanasius the Great: Discourses Against the Arians, 1:4 (A.D. 362), in NPNF2, IV:313
Note, Athanasius makes absolutely no distinction between his sources, some from the Deuterocanonicals and some from the Protocanonicals. Clearly, he thought they were ALL Scripture.
"But if this too fails to persuade them, let them tell us themselves, whether there is any wisdom in the creatures or not? If not how is it that the Apostle complains,
'For after that in the Wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God?’ [1 Cor 1:21] or how is it if there is no wisdom, that a 'multitude of wise men' [Wisdom 6:24] are found in Scripture? for 'a wise man feareth and departeth from evil;’ [Prov 14:16] and 'through wisdom is a house builded;’ [Prov 24] and the Preacher says, 'A man's wisdom maketh his face to shine;' and he blames those who are headstrong thus, 'Say not thou, what is the cause that the former days were better than these? for thou dost not inquire in wisdom concerning this.’ [Eccl 8:1,7:10] But if, as the Son of Sirach says, 'He poured her out upon all His works; she is with all flesh according to His gift, and He hath given her to them that love Him,'[Sirach 1:8,9]" [7]
Athanasius the Great: Discourses Against the Arians, 2:79 (A.D. 362), in NPNF2, IV:391
Again, Athanasius declares Proto and Deutero books as Scriptures without distinction.
Hear the Prophet saying, 'This is our God, none other shall be accounted of in comparison with Him. He hath found out every way of knowledge, and given it to Jacob His servant, and to Israel His beloved. Afterwards He[she] was seen on earth, and conversed among men' [Baruch 3:35-37].
Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, 9:15(A.D. 350),in NPNF2, VII:68
St. Cyril sees Baruch as worth heeding.
Such suggestions are inconsistent with the clear sense of Scripture For all things, as the Prophet says [ref 2 Maccabees 7:28], were made out of nothing; it was no transformation of existing things, but the creation into a perfect form of the non-existent."
Hilary of Poitiers, On the Trinity, 4:16 (A.D. 359), in NPNF2, IX:76
Hilary of Poiters calls 2 Maccabees Scripture. What on earth would Martin Luther had said?
This is an interesting quote, because it is the ONLY place that the Bible speaks of God creating the universe from nothing - although practically every Protestant believes that!!!
"
What Scripture says is very true, 'As for a fool he changeth as the moon.' [Sirach 27:11]
Basil, Hexaemeron, 6:10 (A.D. 370), in NPNF2, VIII:88
Basil. Sirach. Scriptures. 'nuff said.
Then the last and gravest plague upon the persecutors, truly worthy of the night; and Egypt mourns the firstborn of her own reasonings and actions which
are also called in the Scripture the "Seed of the Chaldeans" (Judith 5:6) removed, and the children of Babylon dashed against the rocks and destroyed; (Psalm 138:9). and the whole air is full of the cry and clamour of the Egyptians.
St. Gregory Nazianzen: The Second Oration on Easter, XV, NPNF2, p. 428.
One of the most revered theologians of all time of the Eastern Church calls Judith Scriptures...
I could repeat this exercise with EVERY SINGLE WRITER of the first four centuries with the exception of St. Jerome, who was naturally biased, being a Hebrew interpreter of Scriptures. Isn't it clear that the Church of ancient Christianity thought that those seven books Luther expunged were INDEED Scriptures? The greatest teachers of Christianity are ignored so that the vain innovations of a heretic could have less to attack his false ideas from.
Any Protestant open to truth MUST agree that the Deutorcanonicals were considered Scriptures from the very beginning of Christianity.
jgredline said:
Even Roman Catholic scholars throughout the Reformation period made the distinction between the Apocrypha and the canon...
Only when arguing with the heretics. They did not treat them any differently before or after Trent.
jgredline said:
By sola Scriptura orthodox Protestants mean that Scripture alone is the primary and absolute source of authority, for all doctrine and practice....
Too bad for you the Bible doesn't say that anywhere, making it a tradition of men, according to your concept. I am STILL waiting for you to give me the verse that actually says that!
GOD is the absolute source of authority. A book CANNOT be a source of authority because a book CANNOT interpret itself.
Regards
ing: