The Bible: Fact or Fiction?

[Gary]

"No compulsion in religion"... another myth

There is NO compulsion in religion.

Again, this is pure deception often used by Muslims. The SINGLE verse they use is 2:256. -here-

"No compulsion in religion" (la ikraha fi d-dini), al-Baqarah 2:256 -Source-

• There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower (Pickthall)
  
  Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in God hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And God heareth and knoweth all things. (Yusuf Ali)

Note that this is a Meccan sura, and Muhammad, being in a disadvantaged position, had sought to persuade the non-Muslims to Islam. At Medina, however, the attitude of Muhammad and the Qur'an hardened, and it was sanctioned that conversion through force is necessary. Muslims have often quoted this matter of factly that no one is forced into the religion of Islam, that one is free to choose his religion.

However, it is also the opinion of most Muslims and theologians that this does not apply to the Muslim; he is not free to leave Islam, and apostasy may even involve the death penalty in many Muslim countries.

Thus, no "compulsion in religion" must be seen as only applicable to the non-Muslim, i.e. one is not to be compelled to become a Muslim. Once he or she becomes a Muslim, there is no turning back. He is compelled to remain a Muslim, though. And a person born into a Muslim family has no choice but to remain a Muslim.

On the other hand, Muslims in history have also converted non-Muslims to Islam through the sword, i.e., they either have to be killed or banished or become Muslims.

This verse ("No compulsion in religion") and many others (124 of them in total) have been said to be abrogated by the "sword verse" ayat al-sayf (at-taubah 9:5): -Source-

• Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (Pickthall)

The last part of the verse: "But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free." means that if the pagans become Muslims (not any worship, but the Islamic worship, particularly the confession of faith, the shahada, and the Islamic prayer, salat, and the payment of the Islamic tax, zakat), then the Muslims should not continue with killing them, but let them go.

The following Hadith also expresses a willingness to use force to accomplish the acceptance of Islam:

• Narrated Abu Huraira:
  The Verse:--"You (true Muslims) are the best of peoples ever raised up for mankind." means, the best of peoples for the people, as you bring them with chains on their necks till they embrace Islam. (Sahih Bukhari 6.80)

How sick!

:o :o :o

 

[hopefearmercy]

Hello again,

First of all, you did not say where this source is from....Who is explaining these points as you claim to be sick.

You have no idea of what abrogation is when it pertains to the Quran do you?

These things must be learned in order to understand what is going on.

You cannot just say this was abrogated without PROPER PROOF and it being AUTHENTICATED.
We muslims are NOT ALLOWED to take just anyone's opinions without "backup" and authentication. For if you add or delete anything in Islam, you might as well be taking a seat in hellfire.

For a NON-MUSLIM to explain the Quran to a MUSLIM....without being well versed in the exegesis of the Quran nor a practicing Muslim, that is to a muslim NOT ACCEPTABLE....for we know in the Quran, Allah swt states that "they will never accept you unless you are one of them".

hopefearmercy

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Well, Here is a continuation on teh telephone game.


We all know that what humans today read as the bible, is diffrent than gods true intent.

No, we do not. You presume much for God and for us. The scriptures that we have today contain life and truth.

So, Knowing that, It is unfair and unjust for a christian to use that translation (which may or may not be false) to condemn and deny people rights.

I agree that it is unfair and unjust to use the bible- or the Koran- to deprive anyone of rights. People sometimes use the bible to attempt to do this. It is the normative practice in Islam to deny rights and liberties via the Koran.

The New testament was preserved by the Church, authorized by the Church, and exists to instruct the Church. That people began to interpret the scriptures apart from the Church is one thing; that they began to use these novel interpretations as a means to condemn others is quite another.

One hand teaches not to flaunt your religion

one hand teaches to try to force people into it.

And in Islam, one man teaches that Islam is peace, the other teaches death to the Infidel.
Such is human nature.
Any further need to comment?

Since you cannot determine which one is the true word of god, it should be used as the one that is least harmful to others.

First of all, the Word of God is Christ. Second, we are quite confident what God' words to us are, and we were confident of these things for hundreds of years before Mohammed came along. We will use that which is most faithful to the Greek manuscripts, which we have. Two thirds of the oldest existing New Testament fragments/codices are housed in monasteries on Mount Athos in Greece.

We take good care of the books- though we were never 'people of the book'- we are people of the Lord and His Church.

In america, the land where you can have freedom of religion, isnt it ironic that people are trying to use 1 religion to dictate life?

I would think a Muslim would just remain silent on such issues, for fear of looking a complete hypocrite and fool.

Do you think it odd that people of faith would use their faith as a guide to inform their choices? I don't. I despise the fact that homosexual marriage became a political hot issue last election- but people were and are speaking thier conscience- that goes with the freedom.

 

[peace4all]

*note* i am not muslim, I am actually an atheist, but nice try.

People always have the right to speak their mind.

But the KKK marches and such do not get to pass any laws, or rules, no matter how many ppl they can get to support it. why? it is wrong to take away someones rights, for any reason.


Jesus was supposedly the bringer of peace, or love, or happiness. DO i need to reshow all teh passsages where jesus ordered the killing of women and children?


If the bible today is still the true word of god, then why isnt there just 1 version of the bible?

There are thousands of versions, each one diffrent than the last.

 

[Guest]

peace4all .

you said :

If the bible today is still the true word of god, then why isnt there just 1 version of the bible?

There are thousands of versions, each one diffrent than the last.

And this is very true, very true .

100% absalout truth that the Bible is not the Word of God because God does not make mistakes and what he says is right and what he orders goes.

But the " Bible's" all are diffrent than the other !! Not God's work !!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In Islam we have Only One Original Quran in Arabic since it was reaveled to Mohammad the messenger of God peace be upon him.

No one has changed it and Allah ( God of everything ) has Challeneged all the Humans and jinns to bring just one verse like the Quran [[[ They can't ]]] . some tried and Failed !

And the Quran is the Word of Allah reaveled to Mohammad by the Angel Gabreil !!!

 

[DivineNames]

No one has changed it and Allah ( God of everything ) has Challeneged all the Humans and jinns to bring just one verse like the Quran [[[ They can't ]]] . some tried and Failed !

Muslims... :roll:

 

[Orthodox Christian]

*note* i am not muslim, I am actually an atheist, but nice try.

My bad- I heard the standard quack and saw the waddling walk and assumed 'duck.'

People always have the right to speak their mind.

Only in lands with a Christian heritage is this true. In Muslim lands- no. In Communist/atheist lands- nyet.

But the KKK marches and such do not get to pass any laws, or rules, no matter how many ppl they can get to support it. why? it is wrong to take away someones rights, for any reason.

Yet you would put a gag on the mouth of Christian conservatives. What gives there?

Jesus was supposedly the bringer of peace, or love, or happiness. DO i need to reshow all teh passsages where jesus ordered the killing of women and children?

Yeah, I'll take that challenge. Show me where Jesus ordered the killing of anyone.

If the bible today is still the true word of god, then why isnt there just 1 version of the bible?

Geesh this has a remedial feel: Jesus is the true of God. Holy scripture is the measure of truth, containing God's very words.

There are not many 'versions' of the bible- but there are many translations. There are several textual families of scripture: The Alexandrian, Latin, and Byzantine, to name a few. Prior to the Protestant Reformation, Christians did not read the scriptures like some sort of science book, but as a witness of faith.
The Tradition of the Church came before scripture. Tradition informs our reading of scripture. Do Christians diagree on the reading of scripture? Sure, just as Muslims do about the Koran, just as literary critics do about the meaning of a Robert Frost poem.

There are thousands of versions, each one diffrent than the last.

I recommend that you recuse yourself from this piece of the argument- it is clear you do not have a grasp on the subject. I mean as no offense, simply a statement of the obvious.

 

[peace4all]

Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death.

(Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)

For the LORD had said to Moses, 'Exempt the tribe of Levi from the census; do not include them when you count the rest of the Israelites. You must put the Levites in charge of the Tabernacle of the Covenant, along with its furnishings and equipment. They must carry the Tabernacle and its equipment as you travel, and they must care for it and camp around it. Whenever the Tabernacle is moved, the Levites will take it down and set it up again. Anyone else who goes too near the Tabernacle will be executed.' (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT)

he LORD issued the following command to Moses: "Seize all the ringleaders and execute them before the LORD in broad daylight, so his fierce anger will turn away from the people of Israel."

(Numbers 25:1-9 NLT)

"Go up, my warriors, against the land of Merathaim and against the people of Pekod. Yes, march against Babylon, the land of rebels, a land that I will judge! Pursue, kill, and completely destroy them, as I have commanded you," says the LORD. "Let the battle cry be heard in the land, a shout of great destruction". (Jeremiah 50:21-22 NLT)

Then the LORD said to me, "Even if Moses and Samuel stood before me pleading for these people, I wouldn't help them. Away with them! Get them out of my sight! And if they say to you, 'But where can we go?' tell them, 'This is what the LORD says: Those who are destined for death, to death; those who are destined for war, to war; those who are destined for famine, to famine; those who are destined for captivity, to captivity.' "I will send four kinds of destroyers against them," says the LORD. "I will send the sword to kill, the dogs to drag away, the vultures to devour, and the wild animals to finish up what is left. Because of the wicked things Manasseh son of Hezekiah, king of Judah, did in Jerusalem, I will make my people an object of horror to all the kingdoms of the earth." (Jeremiah 15:1-4 NLT)

I will make Mount Seir utterly desolate, killing off all who try to escape and any who return. I will fill your mountains with the dead. Your hills, your valleys, and your streams will be filled with people slaughtered by the sword. I will make you desolate forever. Your cities will never be rebuilt. Then you will know that I am the LORD. (Ezekiel 35:7-9 NLT)

jesus

(1.) Joshua, the son of Nun (Acts 7:45; Heb. 4:8; R.V., "Joshua").

(2.) A Jewish
Christian surnamed Justus (Col. 4:11). Je'sus, the proper, as Christ is the
official, name of our Lord.



What i said abotu the KKK, i said that even if 55% of the USA were pro kkk, we wouldnt make racist laws, because it is wrong. So, since 80% (or more or less) are christian, it is wrong that they make laws that are discriminatory.


Sure, they can preach that it is wrong i guess, that is just them being stupid. But actually turning it into law is what is wrong.

So you think that atheists are against the freedom of speech? wow, is that a new one to me :P lol. why do so many atheists liek teh ACLU.


so then. Whichversion of the bible is the closest to that in which god wants us to believe?

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Half dozen scriptures, none which had Jesus ordering the death of anyone.

Wait, let us clarify so that we don't end up with further semantics: Jesus the Christ, aka Y'Shua bar Yoseph

jesus

(1.) Joshua, the son of Nun (Acts 7:45; Heb. 4:8; R.V., "Joshua").

(2.) A Jewish
Christian surnamed Justus (Col. 4:11). Je'sus, the proper, as Christ is the
official, name of our Lord.

:roll:

What i said abotu the KKK, i said that even if 55% of the USA were pro kkk, we wouldnt make racist laws, because it is wrong. So, since 80% (or more or less) are christian, it is wrong that they make laws that are discriminatory.

Christians vote on both sides of social issues. You are citing a phantom voting block. Nevertheless, the onus is upon you to define and defend these laws you describe as 'discriminatory.'

BTW: not very many years ago, there were racist laws on the books, and it was a coalition of Christians that led to civil rights legislation. Prior to that, it was a coalition of Christians who led the abolition movement.

Sure, they can preach that it is wrong i guess, that is just them being stupid. But actually turning it into law is what is wrong.

I assume you're speaking of homosexuality, specifically homosexual unions. I am in full support of the secular recognition of homosexual unions- being as we are not a Christian Empire.

I suppose that it does frustrate you that your opinion cannot be ramrodded through legislature, though. The American public takes time to adapt to changing mores. As frustrating as conservatives are to you, and liberals such as yourself are to the conservatives, both voices must be heard. Dialog takes time- this is a function of living in a Republic.

So you think that atheists are against the freedom of speech? wow, is that a new one to me :P lol. why do so many atheists liek teh ACLU.

Essentially atheists like the ACLU because they are leveraging atheist causes. Take for example the ACLU challenges against 10 commandment displays on government property. It is fundamentally laughable to think that 50 and 75 year old marble monuments psychically harm atheists, and are tantamount to a violation of the Establishment Clause. Yet the might of the ACLU is brough to bear against little towns who cannot afford to go to court and defend the monuments- so they cave in to the ACLU bullies. Five percent of the American public then dictates policy, not on the basis of constitutionality, but on the basis of litigation.

Parenthetically, I find the monuments stupid and offensive- crosses and Mogen Davids affixed upon the decalogue- absolutely syncretic, in my opinion. But they are a legacy of what America is, and how it became what it is. I think we would be foolish to divest ourselves of the Judeo-Christian heritage we share, even those of us who are not part of the Christian tradition (Protestant) of which we speak.

so then. Whichversion of the bible is the closest to that in which god wants us to believe?

God wants Christians to believe in Christ, and to accept what truths there are in scripture. I do not know what He wants for you- I assume that He is speaking to you through creation itself, and it's up to you to listen- not up to me to preach bible at you.

And, as I made clear- there are not versions, but translations. I have a decnt command of Greek, and have studied multiple English translations. I find little of substantive difference between them, save the connotated meanings of certain English phrases and words that may be misunderstood. (Example: Charity in the King James is not what you think charity is, such as giving money to the poor. The word in Greek is agape, which is best translated true God-love.)

I wish you well. Remember that a prejudicial response to prejudice is still prejudice.

James

 

[Vic C.]

Hey James, I am enjoying your posts in this thread. :D

Speaking of tradition, I'd like to comment on this. :-D

"Has anyone played the game telephone?"

Now before we go equating a child's game to the passing on of God's word, we need to understand something. Does anyone here understand the importance of oral tradition in the Hebrew and Jewish cultures? They relied heavily on story tellong... to a point where they would almost paint visual pictures. Their story telling is very vivid. They are also sticklers for detail when God's word is concerned. Much of what we have in our Bible was passed on from generation to generation way before it ever hit paper.

Even some of what was qouted by Jesus and His Disciples was from "oral tradition' and not from written scripture. Usually where you read, "it is written", that wound come from Scripture. Where you read, "it is said", that would usually come from oral tradition.

 

[Gary]

The Quran has changed....

In Islam we have Only One Original Quran in Arabic since it was reaveled to Mohammad the messenger of God peace be upon him. No one has changed it....

Not true at all. The Quran you have in your hands has changed. In fact, even today, there are different "versions" of the Arabic Quran. That is easily proven. Read this:

• http://www.aperfectquran.org.uk/

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

...Allah ( God of everything ) has Challeneged all the Humans and jinns to bring just one verse like the Quran --They can't-- . some tried and Failed !

Oh rubbish!!! Many have responded to and defeated that silly challenge from Muhammad.

This was his challenge:

And if you are in doubt
as to which We have revealed to Our servant,
then produce a sura like it,
and call on your helper, besides Allah,
if you are truthful.
Sura 2:23

So here is the response

• http://suralikeit.com/

Enjoy!