zeke
Member
Is that a 'no' for Deb Fung's video? I have suggested what is needed if you want to continue - the ball is in your court.
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[_ Old Earth _] The Bible Talks About the Expansion of the Universe
- Thread starter William Whitehead
- Start date
Is that a 'no' for Deb Fung's video? I have suggested what is needed if you want to continue - the ball is in your court.
Show where the bible states that God "stretched out the heavens" in Genesis please? Take note that the bible also states that God "spread forth the earth" and that He "laid the foundations of the earth." The heavens were stretched out "by His discretion".
Clearly, the earth was made on the 1st day at the same time that the heavens were made. If modern scientific thought completely agrees with a literal understanding of Genesis the BBT (which you state doesn't not contradict your theology) is wrong.
It's a slippery slope that you go down when forcing or trying to shoehorn agreement between the two. For instance, if stretched means the exact same thing as modern science does when speaking about an expanding universe, what does "spread forth" mean and what does "laid" mean? Do you have any scientific understanding of those ancient terms?
Where wast thou when God laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. God asked Job this exact question and it still applies today. He went on to ask Job to declare "Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? Or [who] shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, [as if] it had issued out of the womb? When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it, And brake up for it my decreed [place], and set bars and doors, And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?" - (Job 38:5-11 KJV)
Do you seriously contend (or even pretend) that God was speaking in a literal, scientific manner when he spoke of "doors" and compared the sea with the breaking forth of the womb? Really? There are other examples of this. In point of fact, Hebrew is rich with these literary, poetic parallelisms. Parallelisms are found when the same thing is said in different ways, often one after another. Metaphoric language, parallelism and (if we can speak original Hebrew) both meter and accent show poetic language.
Saying that every word of the bible is true, is one thing. Saying that obscure passages can be given modern, scientific meaning is quite another.
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zeke
Member
You have the cart before the horse, Sparrow. It is your turn to answer my questions then I answer your questions. Give it a shot this time. What do you have to lose?
- In your mind did God stretch out the heavens?
- In your mind if the universe has expanded or is currently expanding is it due to the creative power of God?
- In your mind did the universe have a beginning?
- Does current science now accept the concept of a universe that 'began' and the concept that the universe has expanded since it began?
What exists in my mind is not relevant to the truth. What the Bible says is:
If we turn to certain other descriptions of creation elsewhere in the Old Testament we can see various distinctions. Consider Psalms:
Where there were no depths...
When there were no fountains abounding with water;
Before the mountains were settled,
Before the hills...
While as yet He had not made the earth nor the fields,
Nor the beginning of the dust of the world;
When He established the heavens
and set a circle upon the face of the deep;
When He made firm the skies above,
When the fountains of the deep became strong,
When he gave to the sea its bound,
That the waters should not transgress his commandment,
When he marked out the foundations of the earth.
Where wast thou when He laid the foundations? If your name is "Wisdom" then you were right there with Him. He created all the hosts of the heavens with the breath of his mouth. Now, scientificate that.
Does God daily stretch forth the heavens?
Consider Psalms 104:
Can God's rebuke to the waters, that they "turn not" again to cover the earth be construed to mean that the physical laws of the universe were changed at that time? My only answer is, "I don't know."
If we turn to certain other descriptions of creation elsewhere in the Old Testament we can see various distinctions. Consider Psalms:
Look to Isaiah:
Compare the speech of "Wisdom" found in Proverbs 8 where we see several subordinate periods during creation:
Where there were no depths...
When there were no fountains abounding with water;
Before the mountains were settled,
Before the hills...
While as yet He had not made the earth nor the fields,
Nor the beginning of the dust of the world;
When He established the heavens
and set a circle upon the face of the deep;
When He made firm the skies above,
When the fountains of the deep became strong,
When he gave to the sea its bound,
That the waters should not transgress his commandment,
When he marked out the foundations of the earth.
Where wast thou when He laid the foundations? If your name is "Wisdom" then you were right there with Him. He created all the hosts of the heavens with the breath of his mouth. Now, scientificate that.
Does God daily stretch forth the heavens?
Consider Psalms 104:
Can God's rebuke to the waters, that they "turn not" again to cover the earth be construed to mean that the physical laws of the universe were changed at that time? My only answer is, "I don't know."
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lordkalvan
Member
"
It's a 'no' to declining to follow down rabbit trails that you have produced to divert attention from your avoidance of subjects you appear to be afraid of engaging with.
Anything to try and keep it out of yours, apparently. FYI, you do not dictate the direction in which discussions in threads should go simply because you want to avoid confronting particular areas of debate that you prefer to ignore, and to dodge answering questions that you either can't or are afraid to.
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zeke
Member
Oh but it does - we want to see what you do or do not agree with. One more time---what are you afraid of?
- In your mind did God stretch out the heavens?
- In your mind if the universe has expanded or is currently expanding is it due to the creative power of God?
- In your mind did the universe have a beginning?
- Does current science now accept the concept of a universe that 'began' and the concept that the universe has expanded since it began?
lordkalvan
Member
More exploding irony meters.
Irony? I don't think so. The pretense that we are taking turns answering questions or even discussing the subject isn't worthy of the term "irony". Just like the term "slapstick" isn't worthy of the term "comedy".
My point that the Bible sometimes (oftentimes) uses poetic language is not needed. Even those who are only casually involved in reading the Bible see this. Zeke's point that the ancient writers of the Holy Text meant the same thing as modern scientists is false on the face of it. There were no telescopes during the times of Isaiah and Jeremiah. Less than 5k stars can be seen by the naked eye. I find it much more remarkable that the Bible compares the number of stars with the number of grains of sand on the seashore.
The idea that God could have been in reference to the Planck Epoch and quantum effects of gravity when he said he adorned Himself with the sky as a cloak isn't irony; it merits derisive laughter as absurdly inept and foolhardy. Zeke has no other option than to repeat his rhetorical questions, "Do you think God can do anything?" "Do you think, in your mind, that..."
The problem is, that even if one does agree with the question about God creating everything (and I do) the conclusion that zeke draws from this hardly follows. "In your mind, did God stretch out the heavens?" is asked. God said so, and we know He did -- but that is a far cry from any type of proof for the Big Bang Theory or any of the modern scientific thought that goes into it.
I quoted 4 Scriptures that referenced the phrase, "stretching out the heavens" and asked if zeke had any others in mind. Since that time, I've found a total of 12, there may be more. Three of which use the past tense and support the conclusion that the "stretching" (whatever that was) happened once. On the other hand, there are 3 other Scriptures that seem to indicate a continuing tense and support a conclusion that the "stretching" started in the past and continues even today. Even with this in mind, the conclusion that God wasn't speaking in a scientific manner is unavoidable. The OP made the boast that Christians had known about the expansion of the universe before the 1920's when scientists announced it.
Not one party to this conversation has been able to demonstrate that claim.
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Now that is quite remarkable. How did the ancient writer know that the numbers of stars were near infinite as the number of grains of sand at the seashore?
Even setting aside the fact that this prophecy was given to a man and his wife who were well beyond the childbearing age, I have no explanation other than this comparison was inspired by the Creator of the stars themselves. As my signature reminds us, "every hair on your head has been counted!"
There is a group of 13 people who spent 1,000 manhours on counting 3,281,579 grains of sand. Link: http://www.jochem-hendricks.de/_englisch/w_sand/non_index.htm
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lordkalvan
Member
Very nice post and argument. Unfortunately, this board does not support a reputation facility.
zeke
Member
But Isaiah and Jeremiah wrote via the inspiration of God. Is this something you deny? Do you deny the truth that God was there in the beginning and He does understand science? In your mind does God reveal scientific error? Is God's revelation given for us today? Be careful.
One more time - does the Bible convey the concept of a universe that had a beginning when God "stretched out the heavens" to contain all which He created? Why are you afraid to answer this question?
zeke
Member
Moot point once again. They knew that the Bible conveyed the concept of a universe that had a beginning when God "stretched out the heavens". Does that truth conflict with your worldview?
Zeke, face it. The OP made the following point:
The statement that you've tried to support in this thread has not be substantiated. The text quoted mentions Psalm 104:2 where God says, He wraps Himself in light as with a garment, He stretches out the heavens like a tent.
Your attempt to equate God wrapping Himself in a garment with modern scientific language fails.
Your attempt to equate God wrapping Himself in a garment with modern scientific language fails.
Re-read my Post #128. Pay attention to the part where I stated, "The problem is, that even if one does agree with the question about God creating everything (and I do) the conclusion that zeke draws from this hardly follows."
In a previous post you've said, "The answers I gave were answers you didn't like - that sounds like your personal problem, not mine." How is this any different?
I certainly have an do acknowledge that God has declared that He has wrapped Himself in light as with a garment --AND-- that He has stretched out the heavens like a tent. You have failed to show that this gives Scriptural support for the Planck Epoch, Edwin Hubble's observations of the red-shift or of the start of the universe dating back to 10 to the negative 43 second (10 million trillion trillion trillionths of a second) after the Big Bang. No mention has been made of the theory that before this time all four fundamental forces—gravity, electromagnetism, and the strong and weak nuclear forces—were unified. The Bible doesn't even attempt to address the issue of modern scientific thought.
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Barbarian
Member
The Bible describes creation in poetic terms. There is beauty and grandeur in nature, which is magnificently reflected in the words of the Bible.
That should be enough. It wasn't meant to be a scientific account of the universe. It is something much greater than that.
I second Lord Kalvan's praise for your work here, Sparrowhawke.
That should be enough. It wasn't meant to be a scientific account of the universe. It is something much greater than that.
I second Lord Kalvan's praise for your work here, Sparrowhawke.
zeke
Member
You are misrepresenting me one more time. Why? Show me where I mentioned 'God wrapping Himself in a garment' comparing it to science? I have never made such a statement. Are you so desperate that you must misrepresent the truth? Is that what you are reduced to?
I have presented the truth that the Bible conveys the concept of a universe that had a beginning when God "stretched out the heavens" to contain all which He created? My statement remains true and you have never proven it wrong.
Read again. I said, "The statement that you've tried to support in this thread has not be substantiated." I went on to say, "The text quoted [made by the OP] mentions Psalm 104:2 where God says, He wraps Himself in light as with a garment, He stretches out the heavens like a tent."
I quoted the OP: (you can read it for yourself)
The topic is: "The Bible Talks About the Expansion of the Universe"
The BIBLE (which I assume you support) mentions God wrapping himself in light in the same breath as when it mentions your attempt to isolate a "proof" text about stretching having the same meaning as modern day scientific thought regarding Expansion. What? Am I to assume that you don't believe what God has said? Why do you object as if I have slandered you by assuming otherwise? If you don't believe that God has wrapped Himself in Light as with a garment, just as He declared in Psalm 104, fine. Pardon me for thinking that you did. The fact remains that both phrases were spoken in the same verse. Why is it "misrepresentation" when I include the whole verse? The next verse continues along the same lines, declaring the majesty of God, "Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:" - (Psa 104:3 KJV) Your contrived opinion seems to depend on taking God's word out of context.
In your most recent post, you declare your statement(s) as true but you have offered nothing more than your own opinion as evidence. We've been down this road before.
You've been asked, "Do you use this term [Expansion of the Universe] synonymously with the biblical term "stretched out the heavens"? and replied, "I do." [Post #107]
In the same post you were asked, "If the bible is not a textbook of science why try to use it as one?" and there you replied, "I don't."
Do you have any evidence to offer (other than your own opinion) to support your allegation that the Hebrew phrase, שמים נטה (natah shamayim) relates in any way to the modern scientific concept of the Planck Epoch, Edwin Hubble's observations of the red-shift or of the start of the universe dating back to 10 to the negative 43 second (10 million trillion trillion trillionths of a second) after the Big Bang? I've searched and the best I could do was find similar use of the phrase that aligns with a continuing tense. The verb tense of "stretching" may mean something that happened in the past, or it may also mean something that began and is continuing (because it is said in the "Qal Active Participle verb form) but the fact remains that this same action, this stretching of the heavens does not mean the same thing, is not synonymous with modern scientific thought and you've offered nothing to indicate it does.
The bible uses the exact same word "stretched" in the following scriptures:
"Thou shalt not wrest [natah:stretch] judgment; thou shalt not respect persons, neither take a gift: for a gift doth blind the eyes of the wise, and pervert the words of the righteous." - (Deu 16:19 KJV)
"Cursed [be] he that perverteth [natah:stretch] the judgment of the stranger, fatherless, and widow. And all the people shall say, Amen." - (Deu 27:19 KJV)
"A wicked [man] taketh a gift out of the bosom to pervert [natah:stretch] the ways of judgment." - (Pro 17:23 KJV)
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zeke
Member
You need to read a little closer my friend - you said my "attempt to equate God wrapping Himself in a garment with modern scientific language fails". But I never made such a statement and noted you were misrepresenting me. I then asked you to show me where I made that statement and you obviously cannot. I then asked if you are reduced to misrepresenting the truth out of desperation. I then reminded you that I have presented the biblical concept of a universe that had a beginning when God "stretched out the heavens" to contain that which He created? That statement remains true and you have never proven it wrong.
Read again and accept my explanation that I meant to say that your attempt to support the original post and its premise has failed. In any case, read again.
I have presented a case (using your favorite word) stating, "A wicked [man] taketh a gift out of the bosom to pervert [natah:stretch] the ways of judgment." - (Pro 17:23 KJV)
This same word, upon which you hang your opinion is not used to mean that the Universe is Expanding in any way similar to modern scientific thought.
God Himself said, that He wrapped Himself in light as a garment; He stretches out the heavens like a tent. It's your ATTEMPT to equate biblical truth with modern scientific thought about the Expansion of the Universe (as if they were synonymous) that is unproven and ultimately wrong. Saying it a thousand more times won't make it any more true than the first time you tried. I'm merely pointing to the fact that in order for you to make your point you need to ignore the complete context of every Scripture you bring to bear. When I included the context (from the Word of God) you complained, "I've been misrepresented!"
I have presented a case (using your favorite word) stating, "A wicked [man] taketh a gift out of the bosom to pervert [natah:stretch] the ways of judgment." - (Pro 17:23 KJV)
This same word, upon which you hang your opinion is not used to mean that the Universe is Expanding in any way similar to modern scientific thought.
God Himself said, that He wrapped Himself in light as a garment; He stretches out the heavens like a tent. It's your ATTEMPT to equate biblical truth with modern scientific thought about the Expansion of the Universe (as if they were synonymous) that is unproven and ultimately wrong. Saying it a thousand more times won't make it any more true than the first time you tried. I'm merely pointing to the fact that in order for you to make your point you need to ignore the complete context of every Scripture you bring to bear. When I included the context (from the Word of God) you complained, "I've been misrepresented!"
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zeke
Member
What you falsely stated was that my "attempt to equate God wrapping Himself in a garment with modern scientific language fails". But I never made that statement - did I? You misrepresented me, Sparrow. Why? Are you that desperate? I have only presented the truth that the Bible conveys the concept of a universe that had a beginning when God "stretched out the heavens" to contain all which He created? My statement remains true and you have never proven it wrong. You need to reevaluate you false remarks.