The blasphemous view of Gods Foreknowledge !

[toddm]

Individuality and understanding that they have offended the Creator. Wanting to have a RIGHT relationship with Him. Wanting to KNOW what their purpose is.....shall I continue ?

And what brings sinful man to a point where he wants to have a right relationship w/ God?

YOUR FALLACY ROBS creation of ANY true meaning. Tho I understand you are presently unwilling to try to understand that fact.

Oh goodie, more accusations! Let me try one...YOUR fallacy robs God of His sovereignty and God's glory by elevating man's free will above God's own glory, and I understand that you are unwilling to try and understand that fact. See, I can play that game too.

Strawman nonsense ? Building your own absurd argument to tear down here so you feel like you accomplished something ?

Ummm..not a strawman. Your view IMPLIES that man can't do anything until God presents him with a choice (if this is not your view then I have no idea what is!). My response to that was how can a choice persuade or dissuade someone?

Its an age old questoin that permeates ALL of mankind...'WHAT AM I HERE...WHATS THE MEANING OF LIFE"
We see it even in pagans and atheists. There IS individual yearning to KNOW what its all about....like it or not, friend.

I agree and don't see how that's relevant here.

And that desire in many will exhibit itself when the Father draws and the man RESPONDS to that drawing and they are reunited as the prodigal son is united again with the Father.

Interesting bit of philosophy you have here. What's the deciding factor here then? If all humanity has a deep down desire to know the purpose of life, then why don't all respond to the Father? Is this what the Gospel is all about? The desire to know why we're here? Is the Gospel merely an answer to an age-old philosophical question, because that what it seems to be you're communicating (waiting for misrepresentation accusations again) Maybe, if you'd like not be misrepresented, you should actually try putting some thought and clarity into your responses.

Very sad that predestination error competely strips so much beauty and wonder from Creation.

It's very sad that "predestination error" completely strips so much beauty and wonder from God's sovereignty. Seems to me that you value God's creation over His sovereignty.

 

[toddm]

Ugh...17 more rounds of this repetitive nonsense.

Hmmm...I wouldn't consider discussing Scripture as "nonsense", but that's just me. You're the one who seems to think I'm a heretic and worshiping a false god.

 

[follower of Christ]

Re: The blasphemous views of Calvinism and Hyper-predestination

I'm not sure why you keep assuming that I think foreknowledge & predestination are the same thing? Did I ever say they were? God foreknows someone (not something they will do) and then He predestines them to come to Him at a certain point in time and be conformed to the image of Christ. I agree, it's 2 steps.

Right. TWO steps.
God foreknows/foresees (pathetically limited concepts compared to the reality of it all) and predestinations those whom He foreknows.
They ARENT simply cranked off an assembly line with "heaven' stamped on their foreheads. They DO react TO His drawing.

Oh, I see. 24 years is all it takes to know everything that God's Word teaches us.

What I know is YOU have ZERO chance of drawing me BACK into godless error that Ive already come out of, friend.
Do you understand what 'ZERO' means as far as chances goes ?

This, my friend, is a cop-out and you've done it for much of the thread.

PUHlease.
Dont FORCE me to get into scripture and present a LIST of passages that SEEM to say one thing but DONT say that at all once ALL of scripture is accounted for.
WE can head that direction any time your ready. I have two passages in mind immediately.

You fail to address the verse and merely post another one to nullify it.

Nullify it ?
Sorry I dont do that. I HARMONIZE the data.
YOU have YET to SHOW something that says that man DOESNT have free will and CANT choose God.
Ive given scripture that PROVES that man DOES REACT to Gods 'invitation' and youve done nothing but skirt around it and make up excuses to reject what it plainly states.
\

 

[follower of Christ]

How about you actually address Eph. 1:4,5? Or do you not consider that as part of Scripture?

How about you quit trying to pretend as if your passages SAY anything that contradicts what Revelation 3:20 and others PROVE !

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
(Ephesians 1:4-5 KJV)

My response...
The REST of the evidence....
Mans CHOICE TO RESPOND...

Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him and he with Me.
(Revelation 3:20 MKJV)

And open the door -
This must be his own act, receiving power for this purpose from his offended Lord, who will not break open the door; he will make no forcible entry.
-Adam Clarke

And open the door -
As one would when a stranger or friend stood and knocked. The meaning here is simply, if anyone will admit me; that is, receive me as a friend. The act of receiving him is as voluntary on our part as it is when we rise and open the door to one who knocks.
-Albert Barnes

and open the door;
or show a readiness for the coming of Christ, look and wait for it, and be like such that will receive him with a welcome:
-John Gill

See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape, having refused Him who warned them, how much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who warns from heaven; whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also the heaven."
(Heb 12:25-26)

how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by those who heard Him;
(Heb 2:3 MKJV)

For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2 Peter 2:21

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions; Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used. For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
(Heb 10:26-39 KJV)

The statement "we are not of them who draw back unto perdition" is entirely absurd *IF* 'them' had not actually 'draw back' to perdition.
And the writers EXHORTATION TO these believing Hebrews is VOID of ANY and ALL meaning in REFERRING to these who had 'DRAWN BACK' in his warning to these believers *IF* they could not do the very same thing.

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance;seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame . For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
(Heb 6:4-9 KJV)

Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house. For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
(Heb 3:1-19 KJV)

2.0
Does man play a part in his 'election' and salvation ?

Therefore, brothers, rather be diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you do these things, you shall never fall.
(2 Peter 1:10 MKJV)

So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is working in you, both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
(Philippians 2:12-13 EMTV)

 

[follower of Christ]

Re: The blasphemous views of Calvinism and Hyper-predestination

Sigh. More assertions.

Assertions with scriptural support to which you mostly just have excuses...such as the following...

We are making our election sure not by adding to it, but it is self-revealed affirmation from the works that are manifested.

Sorry gent, but thats not what the WHOLE presents...
GOD invites, MAN REACTS...

Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him and he with Me.
(Revelation 3:20 MKJV)

By your godless nonsense man CANNOT REACT...CANNOT OPEN the door..CANNOT even hear...he is programed and without the ability to DO anything in regards to God.
What a pathetic god some serve...

How do I know I'm elect? Because of what I believe about Jesus and his work and the good deeds that are the fruit of the Spirit in my life.

Same here.
God FOREKNEW/FORESAW that I would REACT to His call and repent and turn to Him and thus He predestinated me to become conformed to the image of His Son


400 more pages, Todd and I assure you NOTHING in my views will change.

 

[follower of Christ]

And what brings sinful man to a point where he wants to have a right relationship w/ God?

Yeah....Im not interested in your cheese trail here, friend.
What part of a mans soul is it that REACTS to Gods call ?
You ask God that question. I wont let you distract or make some bogus nonsense of it as far as MY part goes in this discussion

Oh goodie, more accusations! Let me try one...YOUR fallacy robs God of His sovereignty and God's glory by elevating man's free will above God's own glory, and I understand that you are unwilling to try and understand that fact. See, I can play that game too.

Wrong.
God ISNT robbed of any of His sovereignty when man has FREEDOM to make the CHOICE GOD GAVE HIM TO MAKE !

Ummm..not a strawman. Your view IMPLIES that man can't do anything until God presents him with a choice (if this is not your view then I have no idea what is!).

Wrong.
My view, the biblical one, simply accepts the FACT that God created man with the free will to make choices that he has been OFFERED to make.
GOD OFFERS those choices, gent....

My response to that was how can a choice persuade or dissuade someone?

And Ive answered that question. REread the post ;)

I agree and don't see how that's relevant here.

eh..well....theres the core of your lack of understanding then.
You apparently cant figure out how to connect the dots between the GOD GIVEN question in man that needs a divine answer...and mans REACTING to the call of His creator.

When you get those figured out, we may proceed.

\

 

[follower of Christ]

Interesting bit of philosophy you have here.

It should be interesting given that its the culmination of 2 and a half decades of yearning to know Gods whole truth.

What's the deciding factor here then?

ugh....he gets his answers then asks in another way and pretends that he hasnt been given one.
I see how this is going to go already todd. This discussion will go nowhere for a number of pages more and it will end when one of the two of us has finally decided they dont want to talk about it anymore.
Care to make a wager ?

Deciding factor: free will to CHOOSE.

If all humanity has a deep down desire to know the purpose of life, then why don't all respond to the Father?

See above.
Thats the beauty about FREE WILL, friend....we ALL are unique.

Is this what the Gospel is all about? The desire to know why we're here?

I like how you rip things out of context, make them absolute outside that context, rewrap them and push them onto my plate ;)
Same as you clearly do with your pet passages.

Is the Gospel merely an answer to an age-old philosophical question, because that what it seems to be you're communicating (waiting for misrepresentation accusations again) Maybe, if you'd like not be misrepresented, you should actually try putting some thought and clarity into your responses.

Whats really funny is that i HAVE been clear. You simply have blinders on, apparently.
Ive tied the whole picture together, showing that God wanted a being who could CHOOSE to love Him once made aware of Him. And that that is brought about by instilling in ALL men a desire to know more about their purpose.

THIS is why, sorry to say, these predestination doctrines 'stink'. They are completely robbed of any meaning and any DEPTH. Its all a pathetic assembly line of souls bound for heaven or hell. No color, no life, no meaning.
Utterly and completely worthless.

Seems to me that you value God's creation over His sovereignty.

Seems to me that you have a hard time drawing any sort of logical conclusions when looking at a range of data.
I value TRUTH.
Gods sovereignty is in NO way endangered by man having the ability to CHOOSE between the options provided to him by His creator. If anything that CONFIRMs His sovereignty because evil men can CHOOSE to defy God, yet CANNOT thwart His determined will.

This god you speak of cannot alllow a single freedom of choice without His entire plan being jeopardized, apparently, and His 'sovereignty being threatened by small, pitiful man and his all powerful Free Will

 

[toddm]

FOC, your pride and arrogance is appalling to say the least. I've already said that Rev. 3:20 is completely irrelevant to this discussion because the point at which man chooses God or God chooses man is moot in Rev. 3:20 because it has NOTHING to do w/ conversion. Jesus is speaking to people who are ALREADY believers, so how can this have anything to do w/ Jesus knocking on the door of the unbeliever and waiting for him to answer??

Man, 24 years of Bible study and I thought you would've known that.

Any way, I'm done for real this time. You continue to blow off my arguments w/ non-answers. I try to provide analogies for the purpose of clearly communicating my point to avoid the ambiguity that is synonymous w/ forum message boards, and you just shoot them down as unintelligent drivel. :bigfrown

Furthermore, the grace you lack is astounding! I have never met anyone belittle and attack someone so much over a NON-ESSENTIAL issue to salvation. Wow is all I can say. 24 years of studying the Word isn't very productive when it's truth is not permeating and transforming you to love others and extend them grace. Christians can disagree on non-essential issues, and you lumping me in to the same pile as JWs and Mormons and all other heresies is ruder than anything an unbeliever has ever said to me. I've experienced more grace and love from unbelievers than what you have displayed.

I pray that God's grace and peace be multiplied in your life so that you can extend more grace to others than you have me.

 

[follower of Christ]

FOC, your pride and arrogance is appalling to say the least.

oh please.
Youre being overrun in the discussion and you cant handle it.

I've already said that Rev. 3:20 is completely irrelevant to this discussion

Sorry chap but you are wrong.
Tho looking at Revelation 3:20 its VERY easy to discern exactly why you DONT want it admitted into evidence ;)

because the point at which man chooses God or God chooses man is moot in Rev. 3:20 because it has NOTHING to do w/ conversion. Jesus is speaking to people who are ALREADY believers, so how can this have anything to do w/ Jesus knocking on the door of the unbeliever and waiting for him to answer??

Sorry, but making a GENERAL statement TO the church does NOT nullify that the details of that statement apply to NONbelievers.
Shall we explore that a bit, Todd ?
Im thinking John 3:16..given TO believers for reading material and about the UNSAVED WORLD for starters.

Man, 24 years of Bible study and I thought you would've known that.

Id think a man in your position would know better than to make such bogus statements ;)

Any way, I'm done for real this time.

You continue to blow off my arguments w/ non-answers. I

Just because you dont like the answers dont mean you havent been given one.

As for a COUPLE items I REFUSED to respond to, I KNOW when Im being given a cheese trail to follow and I dont play that game.
You want to keep your hand above the table, Im all eyes and ears.

try to provide analogies for the purpose of clearly communicating my point to avoid the ambiguity that is synonymous w/ forum message boards, and you just shoot them down as unintelligent drivel.

Im in this for FACTS, not hypothesis and certainly not cute stories that sound quaint and distract from those facts.

Furthermore, the grace you lack is astounding!

Hmmm....when did I condemn you to hell

I have never met anyone belittle and attack someone so much over a NON-ESSENTIAL issue to salvation.

Non essential ?
Peter says that some things Paul taught were hard to understand that some distort to their DESTRUCTION.
Does that sound like a non-essential if Peter was talking about these teachings that basically say 'Im elect and therefore God MUST let me in"...even when the person would never admit to thinking that way ?

Wow is all I can say. 24 years of studying the Word isn't very productive when it's truth is not permeating and transforming you to love others and extend them grace.

Sorry todd but I HAVENT put you at hells gates friend.
You expected me to react in a particular way and I havent. You seemingly thought I would just hop on the Calvinist wagon with you and friend I hopped off that wagon years ago.

Christians can disagree on non-essential issues, and you lumping me in to the same pile as JWs and Mormons and all other heresies is ruder than anything an unbeliever has ever said to me. I've experienced more grace and love from unbelievers than what you have displayed.

see above.
IS this a non-essential ?

 

[follower of Christ]

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
(Revelation 3:20 KJV)


If any man hear my voice -
Perhaps referring to a custom then prevailing, that he who knocked spake, in order to let it be known who it was. This might be demanded in the night Luk_11:5, or when there was apprehension of danger, and it may have been the custom when John wrote. The language here, in accordance with the uniform usage in the Scriptures (compare Isa_55:1; Joh_7:37; Rev_22:17), is universal, and proves that the invitations of the gospel are made, and are to be made, not to a part only, but fully and freely to all people; for, although this originally had reference to the members of the church in Laodicea, yet the language chosen seems to have been of design so universal (??? ??? ean tis) as to be applicable to every human being;and anyone, of any age and in any land, would be authorized to apply this to himself, and, under the protection of this invitation, to come to the Saviour, and to plead this promise as one that fairly included himself.
It may be observed further, that this also recognizes the freedom of man.
It is submitted to him whether he will hear the voice of the Redeemer or not; and whether he will open the door and admit him or not. He speaks loud enough, and distinctly enough, to be heard, but he does not force the door if it is not voluntarily opened.
-Albert Barnes

 

[savedbygrace57]

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
(Revelation 3:20 KJV)

This is talking about the local church at ladociea, if any man hear his voice in apostate religon, Jesus will have fellowship with Him because He will be called out of apostate religon..

rev 18:

4And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

1 cor 1:

9God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

Jesus says if any man hears his voice, well who are those Jesus says hears his voice ? Jn 10:

27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

 

[follower of Christ]

This is talking about the local church at ladociea, if any man hear his voice in apostate religon, Jesus will have fellowship with Him because He will be called out of apostate religon..

Oh please....we've already covered this excuse.
WHY must some of you make us REPEAT the SAME blasted evidence OVER and OVER and OVER !

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
(Revelation 3:20 KJV)


If any man hear my voice -
Perhaps referring to a custom then prevailing, that he who knocked spake, in order to let it be known who it was. This might be demanded in the night Luk_11:5, or when there was apprehension of danger, and it may have been the custom when John wrote. The language here, in accordance with the uniform usage in the Scriptures (compare Isa_55:1; Joh_7:37; Rev_22:17), is universal, and proves that the invitations of the gospel are made, and are to be made, not to a part only, but fully and freely to all people; for, although this originally had reference to the members of the church in Laodicea, yet the language chosen seems to have been of design so universal (??? ??? ean tis) as to be applicable to every human being;and anyone, of any age and in any land, would be authorized to apply this to himself, and, under the protection of this invitation, to come to the Saviour, and to plead this promise as one that fairly included himself.
It may be observed further, that this also recognizes the freedom of man.
It is submitted to him whether he will hear the voice of the Redeemer or not; and whether he will open the door and admit him or not. He speaks loud enough, and distinctly enough, to be heard, but he does not force the door if it is not voluntarily opened.
-Albert Barnes

AGAIN....John is written TO THE CHURCH...and John 3:16 is about the WORLD....
Just because words are given TO the church DOESNT MEAN they arent speaking ABOUT the unsaved world.
Shall we explore that thought some more?

.

 

[glorydaz]

Perhaps that's why some don't heed the knocking.
They think it was meant for someone else.

Personally, I opened the door, and now He sups with me. :amen

 

[follower of Christ]

Perhaps that's why some don't heed the knocking.
They think it was meant for someone else.

Personally, I opened the door, and now He sups with me. :amen

Its really sad when christians are so caught up in a false doctrine that they can no longer see the wonderous truths in the scriptures.
Removing Free Will from Gods word and plan just makes the whole creation dead and meaningless...lifeless....nothing.
Its just a disgusting view of God and creation that I dont know how anyone could accept or believe.

 

[glorydaz]

Perhaps that's why some don't heed the knocking.
They think it was meant for someone else.

Personally, I opened the door, and now He sups with me. :amen

Its really sad when christians are so caught up in a false doctrine that they can no longer see the wonderous truths in the scriptures.
Removing Free Will from Gods word and plan just makes the whole creation dead and meaningless...lifeless....nothing.
Its just a disgusting view of God and creation that I dont know how anyone could accept or believe.

Disgusting is right.
It's truly one of the biggest tools in the enemy's arsenal.
I hadn't really noticed just how big until I read all these posts on the "elect".
I have never been exposed to the blindness that comes with thinking repentance and salvation isn't available for every man.

When you take away man's ability to choose, what's left? Not the God I know, that's for sure. Jesus went to the cross so man could choose God. Satan's lie is that God chose a certain few and there's nothing man can do to change it. To claim man has no free will is a direct assault on God's call to repent.