The blasphemous view of Gods Foreknowledge !

[follower of Christ]

The blasphemous views of Calvinism and Hyper-predestination

Do you see the inconsistency in this logic?

No, Todd, apparently I dont...can you see the illogic in the question itself ?

Lets diagram this process out,

Now why do I know before i read this that this is going to be some off the wall absurdity...

and help me understand you if I'm not getting your position:

1) Man cannot make a decision to follow Christ because God hasn't drawn him.
2) God draws him, which means he can now make a decision.
3) Man makes or does not make a decision to follow Christ.

That is scriptural.
I can post Christ from Revelation 3 if youd like.
HE knocks and WE react ..sorry but its fact.

Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him and he with Me.
(Revelation 3:20 MKJV)

He knocks, WE respond....

How is 1 & 3 different? If you say #2 is what makes the difference, then God's grace is efficacious! How would a drawing give man any more ability to choose God than without a drawing?

Uh...we dont go to a party we dont know about friend. ;)
He knocks, WE respond

Why even have a drawing?

And HEERE we go
Why do it the way GOD says its done ?
Ask God

The entire premise makes no sense.

Then you have a problem with the way GOD set things up, Im afraid.
In which case *I* cant help you, Todd

Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him and he with Me.
(Revelation 3:20 MKJV)

HE knocks, WE respond.
Thats just how its done...like it or not

 

[follower of Christ]

The blasphemous views of Calvinism and Hyper-predestination

Is God's drawing effectual or not?

Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him and he with Me.
(Revelation 3:20 MKJV)

Apparently bro you dont like what Jesus says.
He knocks and *IF* we hear His voice and OPEN the door He will come in.
Sorry but it IS a conditional statement..shall I break out the greek or does the word 'if' give it away ?

 

[follower of Christ]

The blasphemous views of Calvinism and Hyper-predestination

If not, then why even draw because man is perfectly capable of choosing God on his own.
If it's still up to man, then it should be irrelevant whether God draws him or not, right? Therefore, why not just make premise #1 - man is fully capable of choosing God without any prompting whatsoever. Why would a drawing make any difference one way or the other?

ahahah...youre doing it again, chap.
I have stated OVER AND AGAIN that man CANNOT choose when he has not been offered the OPTION.

So, what then is your logical conclusion?

That either you ARENT paying attention here or that you ARE and that you prefer dishonesty.
I like you and I certainly dont want to believe the latter, but youve done it enough now that Im starting to wonder about it.

Man doesn't need God in order to choose Him, or man does need God in order to choose Him? The former contradicts your above post; the latter agrees w/ my view.

Read it again and try to READ my actual words correctly

Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him and he with Me.
(Revelation 3:20 MKJV)

HE knocks, WE respond...the statement is conditional...He DOESNT break down the door.

 

[follower of Christ]

The blasphemous views of Calvinism and Hyper-predestination

To misunderstand someone due to the ambiguous nature of forum boards and accusing someone of being blatantly dishonest are very different things, and I personally do not care for your accusations.

Then I submit you READ and UNDERSTAND what I POST rather than skimming it so poorly that you end up misrepresenting what Ive SAID.

You've thrown "stones" at my integrity, my intelligence, my love for God, and my theological intellect.

Stop misrepresenting MY posts and the problem is solved.

I would think that from having seen some of my previous posts in different discussions (where we were in agreement) that I would have at least earned SOME respect from someone as passionate about the Word as yourself.

I seriously dont want to lose respect for you Todd, but its getting harder to do when you ARE misrepresenting what *I* have presented overall.
How many times does it happen before you start to wonder if its intentional...kwim ?

I never assumed that you were in here to learn something, but shouldn't all students of the Word always be teachable and trying to learn from others who are passionate about the Word too?

Im always open to truth.
When its presented here and I can verify it, Ill believe it

Instead, you have positioned yourself as the scholar in theology and anyone who disagrees with you is "following a false God". .

More false accusations ?
Heresies are not the same as simply disagreeing.
I can disagree about wedding rings and wine and days...those are irrelevant.
When the teaching makes God into a monster, thats when heresy becomes more evident.

No, brother, it is I who expected more from you

Frankly Im entirely surprised and saddened to see that you are caught up in error, Todd.

BTW, Making subtle attacks on people and their intellect and then posting a behind it doesn't it make it more "Christian" or less offensive.

Nor is it less offensive when I MISrepresented a number of times to have someone claim innocence.

If I can give you any encouragement as one Christian brother to another, it is to add more grace to your posts and in dealing with others on this board.

I dont find ANY grace in a fallacy that gives the impression that God is cranking out souls with 'Hell' stamped on their forehead on an assembly line.

 

[toddm]

I just can't seem to stop :D

Okay, let's look at your Revelation passage here:

Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him and he with Me.
(Revelation 3:20 MKJV)

I believe that you are making one major assumption here, and that is EVERY body hears his voice. But is this what Scripture teaches us?

John 10:3-4 "the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice."

Who hears the voice? Everyone? No, the "anyone" is within the context of the "sheep", which is who Jesus is speaking to also in Revelation 3 - he's speaking to the church. Other people can't hear his voice because he has not given them ears to hear or eyes to see.

Stop misrepresenting MY posts and the problem is solved.

So, if I misunderstand your posts (because I'm always asking for clarification because I don't want to misrepresent), then you're going to bypass grace and continue to insult me?

I dont find ANY grace in a fallacy that gives the impression that God is cranking out souls with 'Hell' stamped on their forehead on an assembly line.

If you're going to get upset for people misrepresenting your posts, then don't misrepresent others. No one in this thread has even hinted of double-predestination which is what you're accusing here. God is perfectly just to not save anyone at all! Man stands condemned already...Adam put a "HELL" stamp on everyone's head the day he failed to lead his family. Stop misrepresenting our position when no such thing has been said

 

[follower of Christ]

The blasphemous views of Calvinism and Hyper-predestination

I just can't seem to stop :D

;)
addictions....

Okay, let's look at your Revelation passage here:

oh boy....wheee...yeah....lets....
Going to make it FAR more complicated than it is so we dont have to accept the simple concept it presents ? ;)

Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him and he with Me.
(Revelation 3:20 MKJV)

I believe that you are making one major assumption here, and that is EVERY body hears his voice. But is this what Scripture teaches us?

Nope..I dont make that assumption because Idont believe that God draws (knocks) on every heart from the moment of birth till they die.
Believing that would make Jesus words seem a bit contradictory as I presented before that I'll have to dig up.

John 10:3-4 "the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice."

Who hears the voice? Everyone? No, the "anyone" is within the context of the "sheep", which is who Jesus is speaking to also in Revelation 3 - he's speaking to the church. Other people can't hear his voice because he has not given them ears to hear or eyes to see.

"His sheep"...those whom He foreknew would open the door of their own free will when He knocked
Seems quite simple

And something YOU are missing evenafter I pointed it out is that Revelation 3:20 is CONDITIONAL.....it says IF...

Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him and he with Me.
(Revelation 3:20 MKJV)

There is NO IF in absolutes.
*IF* destroys your entire fallacy, Todd.
*IF* the MAN will REACT and OPEN the door....THEN Christ will enter.

getting it yet ?

.
.

 

[follower of Christ]

The blasphemous views of Calvinism and Hyper-predestination

So, if I misunderstand your posts (because I'm always asking for clarification because I don't want to misrepresent), then you're going to bypass grace and continue to insult me?

As I said, Todd, when the misrepresentation goes on for a while and its on a couple different points...how long before Im supposed to think it may be intentional ?

If you're going to get upset for people misrepresenting your posts, then don't misrepresent others.

Taking a view to its only logical conclusion ISNT misrepresenting anyone at all.
I dont think that Calvinists BELIEVE some things.....but its because they simply DONT follow things to their only logical conclusion.

For instance...YOU may not believe that God causes man to sin...that He 'ordains' it as two others here have shown they do...but *IF* you remove 'free will' and take it to its ONLY logical conclusion (I assume you havent) then ultimately GOD IS responsible for mans choice to sin.

No one in this thread has even hinted of double-predestination which is what you're accusing here.

Really ?
I suggest you READ the thread again, friend, because that HAS been presented here by TWO posters.
Pay attention
The OP even DIRECTLY answered my question with YES...are you reading or just ignoring what you dont want to see ?

God is perfectly just to not save anyone at all!

Agreed.
But clearly God wants a man who can CHOOSE to love Him and have a relationship with Him...a being who, when awakened to the Creator in a very small way, will WANT to go looking for Him....just as Moses turned aside to see the small burning bush on the mountainside.

Man stands condemned already...Adam put a "HELL" stamp on everyone's head the day he failed to lead his family. Stop misrepresenting our position when no such thing has been said

Huh...so you DONT believe in an absolute 'elect' then ?
If ALL of us are stamped then HOW is that stamp removed ?

.

 

[toddm]

Nope..I dont make that assumption because Idont believe that God draws (knocks) on every heart from the moment of birth till they die.

Ok, good we agree that God doesn't draw everyone.

"His sheep"...those whom He foreknew would open the door of their own free will when He knocked
Seems quite simple

So, are you agreeing that he only knocks on the door of those he foreknew (elect)?

 

[toddm]

As I said, Todd, when the misrepresentation goes on for a while and its on a couple different points...how long before Im supposed to think it may be intentional ?

Intentional or not, that's not the grace that we're called to extend to each other.

Taking a view to its only logical conclusion ISNT misrepresenting anyone at all.
I dont think that Calvinists BELIEVE some things.....but its because they simply DONT follow things to their only logical conclusion.

No, sir. Just because YOU can't see the other logical conclusions doesn't make it the ONLY logical conclusion.

Huh...so you DONT believe in an absolute 'elect' then ?
If ALL of us are stamped then HOW is that stamp removed ?

.

Yes, I do. The stamp isn't removed, the "JESUS" stamp goes over it.

 

[follower of Christ]

The blasphemous views of Calvinism and Hyper-predestination

Ok, good we agree that God doesn't draw everyone.

There you go misrepresenting me again.
I didnt SAY God doesnt draw everyone, friend.
I said I dont see in scripture that He is drawing everyone from the moment of birth to their death.
If youre going to quote me dont add to what Ive said
Ive made it VERY clear in this thread that I wont make any claims as to whether God 'draws' men like Hitler or not.

So, are you agreeing that he only knocks on the door of those he foreknew (elect)?

No.
what Im agreeing to is that, as Revelation 3:20 proves, that SOME He knocks at WILL respond and SOME wont.
There is no 'IF' in absolutes....do you understand that statement ?

 

[follower of Christ]

The blasphemous views of Calvinism and Hyper-predestination

]Intentional or not, that's not the grace that we're called to extend to each other.

Grace or not, if you ARE misrepresenting me, friend, I WILL call attention to it and I expect you to do the same.

No, sir. Just because YOU can't see the other logical conclusions doesn't make it the ONLY logical conclusion.

Then show me another conclusion...dont just stop short at you dont believe in free will or whatever it is that youre arguing against here.

yes, I do. The stamp isn't removed, the "JESUS" stamp goes over it.

So you DO believe there is some condition involved ?
What does Jesus SAY about that condition ?

Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him and he with Me.
(Revelation 3:20 MKJV)

*IF* ANYONE hears and OPENs the door.
Not' Ill huff and I'll puff and Ill kicked the blasted door in

 

[toddm]

So, I have been thinking about this conversation. We are talking about salvation here, right? What I mean by that is that the point we're arguing is over the way someone is converted, right? I just want to make sure I am understanding the conversation correctly.

 

[follower of Christ]

The blasphemous views of Calvinism and Hyper-predestination

So, I have been thinking about this conversation. We are talking about salvation here, right? What I mean by that is that the point we're arguing is over the way someone is converted, right? I just want to make sure I am understanding the conversation correctly.

We're talking the 'elect', Todd.
You seem to think they are absolute, guaranteed and had NO choice but to BE the elect because God decided who would be the elect in an absolute manner regardless of whether the man would or wouldnt accept and love Him of any free will to (so I take it from our exchange).

I dont believe that as its not in Gods character to not allow someone TO repent who would repent unless there are very specific circumstances (such as blasphemy of the Spirit, etc).

If God would not reject repentence of a man sorrowful for his sin, then the MAN DOES have some say in whether he is 'elect' or not.
We DO play a part in our being 'elect'. Calvinism and other doctrines simply take passages meant to encourage us to a level they werent meant to be taken.

yes, yes...I know the drill. Im supposedly 'misrepresenting' what Calvinism teaches. I hear it all the time.
Frankly Ive lost ALL concern as to what Calvin taught. He was a fallible man, nothing more. No one to be concerned about or idolize.
What *I* am discussing is the material in THIS thread...statements made by yourself and others HERE and NOW...Calvin and his fallacies are of no consequence to THIS discussion.
WE are having an exchange about what YOU believe versus what *I* believe and comparing that to the scriptures. Calvin is irrelevant.

Does man play a part in his 'election' and salvation?

Therefore, brothers, rather be diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you do these things, you shall never fall.
(2 Peter 1:10 MKJV)

So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is working in you, both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
(Philippians 2:12-13 EMTV)

But of course, those dont actually MEAN what they plainly SAY....right ?
.

 

[toddm]

Re: The blasphemous views of Calvinism and Hyper-predestination

We're talking the 'elect', Todd.
You seem to think they are absolute, guaranteed and had NO choice but to BE the elect because God decided who would be the elect in an absolute manner regardless of whether the man would or wouldnt accept and love Him of any free will to (so I take it from our exchange).

Ok. Then your Rev. 3:20 passage is irrelevant to this conversation as that verse has nothing to do with non-elect but only the elect. :yes

How else should we logically read Ephesians 1:4,5 - "even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love, he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will."

Here's what I see - God chose to love us before He created anything, God predestined (pre-planned, ordained) us to be His children, according to...not OUR CHOICE, but according to HIS purpose and will. How can you possibly read that any differently?

We DO play a part in our being 'elect'.

What is that part? Faith and repentance? What causes them to repent? A choice? How does a choice persuade anyone? Choices don't persuade anything, that's nonsense. What persuades people is their desires. That is what governs our free will - our desires. Our free will is enslaved to sin, therefore we will ALWAYS choose sin because it's our master. We do not have the freedom to liberate ourselves from this 'master'. Jesus is the one who liberates us. He gives us a new will, hence new desire, which without we would never choose a righteous, holy God.

I look at it this way - you're in a prison and chained to the wall, and you've been there for 20 years and you're going to be there until you die. In walks a man, and says "hey, you're free to go" and unlocks your chains and opens the cell door. Now you have the freedom to stay, but would you? No way!! You'd be running out of there. That is what I mean by "irresistable". Not that God drags us to heaven kicking and screaming (if that were even possible). The rules have changed because a new variable has entered the picture - that variable is that before we did not even have the ability to leave the cell. This has been my point, God frees us first and this freedom is so overwhelming that we can't help but run to Him.

 

[follower of Christ]

Re: The blasphemous views of Calvinism and Hyper-predestination

Ok. Then your Rev. 3:20 passage is irrelevant to this conversation as that verse has nothing to do with non-elect but only the elect. :yes

I agree.
And the elect are those who God FOREKNEW and so also predestinated (two steps) to be conformed to the image of His Son.

Do you honestly think that after 24 years of bible study that youre going to stump me or change my mind, Todd ?

How else should we logically read Ephesians 1:4,5 - "even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love, he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will."

And *IF* that were the ONLY piece of evidence we had then you MIGHT have an argument.
To bad its not
We have others such as these that PROVE that we DO play a part in election...

Therefore, brothers, rather be diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you do these things, you shall never fall.
(2 Peter 1:10 MKJV)

In your doctrinal error there would be NOTHING man could to make his election sure. ;)

 

[follower of Christ]

Here's what I see - God chose to love us before He created anything, God predestined (pre-planned, ordained) us to be His children, according to...not OUR CHOICE, but according to HIS purpose and will. How can you possibly read that any differently?

And His purpose and will fits perfectly within a framework of having a creature who could CHOOSE to love Him when He presents Himself to that being.
Youre simply overwhelmed by this 'predestination' point and completely lacking in comprehension as to how it fits together with FREE will and FOREKNOWLEDGE

What is that part?

Freedom to choose, apparently. Have you been sleeping thru the thread here, Todd ?

Faith and repentance? What causes them to repent? A choice?

Individuality and understanding that they have offended the Creator. Wanting to have a RIGHT relationship with Him. Wanting to KNOW what their purpose is.....shall I continue ?

YOUR FALLACY ROBS creation of ANY true meaning. Tho I understand you are presently unwilling to try to understand that fact.

How does a choice persuade anyone? Choices don't persuade anything, that's nonsense.

Strawman nonsense ? Building your own absurd argument to tear down here so you feel like you accomplished something ?

What persuades people is their desires.

And their DESIRE is often to KNOW what their existence is about.
Its an age old questoin that permeates ALL of mankind...'WHAT AM I HERE...WHATS THE MEANING OF LIFE"
We see it even in pagans and atheists. There IS individual yearning to KNOW what its all about....like it or not, friend. And that desire in many will exhibit itself when the Father draws and the man RESPONDS to that drawing and they are reunited as the prodigal son is united again with the Father.

Very sad that predestination error competely strips so much beauty and wonder from Creation.

 

[follower of Christ]

That is what governs our free will - our desires.

So man DOES have free will, then. I agree

Our free will is enslaved to sin, therefore we will ALWAYS choose sin because it's our master.

Not when the Father has drawn the man and gives him CHOICE not given to him prior to that moment.
Some come and fall away, some come to Him and remain, many simply choose to remain in rebellion.
Sorry but it fits the data as a whole....your agreement not required.

We do not have the freedom to liberate ourselves from this 'master'. Jesus is the one who liberates us. He gives us a new will, hence new desire, which without we would never choose a righteous, holy God.

Again, JESUS SAYS that He knocks and IF WE HEAR AND OPEN THE DOOR He will come in. He will NOT force Himself on those who choose to hate Him.
And again, He FOREKNOWS who will choose to repent and who will continue in rebellion.

I look at it this way -

Not interested in your parables and allegory, Todd. Not in the least


.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: The blasphemous views of Calvinism and Hyper-predestination

Rom 11:

2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

The False teachers of the antichrist, and his followers, have taken one of Gods eternal precious truthes of scripture, that of Gods foreknowledge, and have wrested it to mean, that God uses His foreknowledge in order to see or have seen how someone will respond in any given situation.

Oh please
WE look at the EVIDENCE presented in the WHOLE word of God and CONCLUDE that our God is NO monster up there cranking out souls on an assembly line stamping 'Heaven' or 'hell' on their heads, but DOES INDEED give man some CHOICE in the matter.

WITHOUT CHOICE, and I realize its hard for some to grasp this concept, CREATION HAS NO MEANING !

Think about that statement REALLY hard, SBG57

This concept is extremely dishonoring to the God who created the heavens and the earth,

WRONG !
It is actually honoring Him FAR more than the Puppet Master Doctrine could EVER do !
WE know that God is SO sovereign that He CAN allow man to have a LOT of freedom, including freedom of CHOICE, yet mans choices CANNOT overcome GODS will.

This "Puppet Master God' is SO unbelievably weak and feeble minded that He has to micromanage EVERYthing because apparnently if ONE free choice is allowed His ENTIRE plan falls apart :crazy

Speaking of "Master"....this post is too good to NOT be brought back for an encore.
I can see this is going to be one of my favoite threads. foC...you rock.

 

[toddm]

Re: The blasphemous views of Calvinism and Hyper-predestination

I agree.
And the elect are those who God FOREKNEW and so also predestinated (two steps) to be conformed to the image of His Son.

I'm not sure why you keep assuming that I think foreknowledge & predestination are the same thing? Did I ever say they were? God foreknows someone (not something they will do) and then He predestines them to come to Him at a certain point in time and be conformed to the image of Christ. I agree, it's 2 steps.

Do you honestly think that after 24 years of bible study that youre going to stump me or change my mind, Todd ?

Oh, I see. 24 years is all it takes to know everything that God's Word teaches us. :rolling *Waiting for accusation of misrepresentation* Sigh.

And *IF* that were the ONLY piece of evidence we had then you MIGHT have an argument.

This, my friend, is a cop-out and you've done it for much of the thread. You fail to address the verse and merely post another one to nullify it. How about you actually address Eph. 1:4,5? Or do you not consider that as part of Scripture?

To bad its not
We have others such as these that PROVE that we DO play a part in election...
[quote:2o98casz]Therefore, brothers, rather be diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you do these things, you shall never fall.
(2 Peter 1:10 MKJV)

I, and every Calvinist I know of affirms this verse. If you read the context of the passage, you see that works re-affirms our calling and election. This also affirms Jesus' words that we shall recognize His followers by their fruit. This has nothing to do with us choosing to follow Jesus..this is AFTER the fact that we are already following him.

In your doctrinal error there would be NOTHING man could to make his election sure. ;)

[/quote:2o98casz]Sigh. More assertions. We are making our election sure not by adding to it, but it is self-revealed affirmation from the works that are manifested. How do I know I'm elect? Because of what I believe about Jesus and his work and the good deeds that are the fruit of the Spirit in my life.

 

[follower of Christ]

Ugh...17 more rounds of this repetitive nonsense.