The Calling of the 144,000

[Andrew]

Coop[/quote]

Coop,
I've given a lot of thought to your statements and re-read both book of Revelation and Daniel.
I came to the conclusion we have perspective differences that I can only describe in a figurative way:

It's like you and I are sitting on opposite sides of a table that has a small pedestal in the center and on top the pedestal is a coffee mug at our eye level (This mug represents the prophecy), but the handle is on my side and you don't see it (and neither of us have ever seen this thing before). We are both told to examine it without moving and what you see is not what I see, so my description doesn't match yours; you don't see the handle and argue it's not there. I don't back down from insisting on the handle being there just because you don't see it; the entire matter remains a stalemate.

You have time line confusions plaguing your ability to see what the prophecy says, and you don't want to consider the possibility that there's a handle, something else you don't see yet. I personally believe it would be to your benefit to consider another analogy that might help you see the handle:

Imagine being dropped instantly into the dead middle of a huge battle field and the moment you arrive there you are facing North and told to observe and write down what you see throughout the duration you are allowed to see it.
Then you find yourself facing East and told to do the same thing again, and then South and then West.
All said and done you determine what you saw to the East happened AFTER what you saw in the North, and what happened in the South also happened after what happened in the East, etc. However, the truth is that all you saw happened simultaneously, you just couldn't see what was happening because you don't have eyes around your whole head and can't describe North, East, South, and West at the same time.

Now using what I've said here (if you will) you have multiple explanations of events that overlap, like the prophecy is on transparencies stacked one on top the other looking at all of it at the same time, but you think they read one next to the other, in that order, and this is where you get trapped.
It's because of this that your explanation requires a partial second coming before a complete and total second coming, and that's pure distortion and confusing.

Don't get me wrong, I believe with all my heart most of you truly want to understand.
Here is a critical hint to understanding what you've been told in prophecy;

1 Corinthians 13:12 Now we see but a poor reflection; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. NIV

That statement looked at on the surface doesn't seem like much, but it becomes very deep when considered with this statement;

Hebrews 8:5 They serve in a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. NIV

And yes ALL of Hebrews chapter 8 is significant to get the point of this verse 5 sentence.

Perhaps you would care to expound on why the Holy Spirit had John write of the huge crowd in heaven, in chapter 7, rather than in chapter 19?
The huge crowd that comes out of the great tribulation?
Perhaps you would care to expound on why in verse 6 of 2 Thes. 2 Paul wrote, "and now you know?"
Why did Paul write three VERY similar phrases in 2 thes 2, two with the restrainer in the front half of the verse and the man of sin that would be revealed in the second half of the verse - - - then the third one where the man of sin IS revealed, and instead of restrainer Paul wrote "apostasia?"
Paul is addressing the coming of the Lord, the day of the Lord, and that it won't happen until the man of lawlessness is revealed (being restrained until), when he is revealed (the man of lawlessness, apostasia) he is destroyed by the splendor of the Lord's coming.
Why did Paul not say in 1 Thes 5 that both US and THEY would have to live through the "sudden destruction?" If Paul KNEW the gathering of 1 Thes. 4:17 was at the end of the trib, he could have written chapter 5 MUCH clearer.
Again, Paul addresses the Day of the Lord, the day of His return, that it will come like a thief for those who do not know the Lord, but it won't surprise us (the church) because we are not in darkness but children of the light; we expect Jesus to return.
So, knowing that, "We who are still alive and are left will be caught up with them (the resurrected) in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." Paul did write chapter 5 clearly because he figures you are understanding him when he says the Day of the Lord comes at the end of the age.
Finally, perhaps you would care to explain (finally) how you will get to the Marriage and marriage supper?
(I have yet to hear any plausible explanation from a post tribber on this issue.
And here again, "we who are caught up to be with the Lord forever", are married to Him.
I would also like to know how you will find any sheep for the sheep and goat judgment, and sheep for the kingdom.
Jesus said He's the good shepherd and His sheep know His voice, therefore come when they are called, caught up to Him upon His return. Revelation 14:14-20 A double harvesting that takes place at the same time, the first swings his sickle and the earth is harvested, the second swings his sickle and those appointed to wrath are separated from those saved, the chaff separated from the grain.
YOu see, I did not get where I am blindly. I spent many hours reading first, not trying to use human understanding, and many of the same hours praying in the spirit, setting myself up to be taught by the Holy Spirit. I was determined to come with no preconceptions and knowing NOTHING. I came away from this time with HIS doctrine. When we get there, you will find out.
You say that "you" did this of your own accord to learn what it means. I didn't. I had it brought to me by God's will through the Holy Spirit and He spent seven years just to get me to where He could reveal to me the deeper understandings. He called on me NOT the other way around. He gave me what He wanted me to understand and insisted I read the Bible and only the bible, forbidding me to read books of men on the subject (to which I can clearly understand why; they would have tainted the teaching and created warped and distorted understanding). The Lord said to me, "My Word says what it means and means what it says, just because you don't understand at first, doesn't mean it isn't literally true", and proceeded to show me how it is literally true.
You spoke of books you've read by people who went to heaven. The Holy Spirit spent 21 years showing me the entire book of revelation verse by verbatim verse in an entirely different order which reads in perfect order and harmony with the entire Bible. It explains the chronology perfectly in terms of how it all plays out, when, what, where, and how. There is a reason for my understanding and it boils down to fulfillment of prophecy. It is the Lord who calls, and prepares, and builds up His servants for what must soon take place. You don't really believe that our Lord wants us to remain blind and without understanding, do you? I'm finding a church of brethren who seem to, on one hand, believe all that is written, and on the other hand, seem to lack the faith that the Lord fulfills His Word.
So I'll be blunt, much to your disbelief as well as others, and I don't insist on it but believe it will be proven by time itself; the reason I know is because I've been groomed to fulfill what is written, to testify to the fulfillment and thereby fulfill it in my testimony. To prophesy the Great Tribulation into existence, to plague mankind with suffering so they will repent. To read the scroll to the world. To give a little help to those who; Daniel 11:33-35 "Those who are wise will instruct many, though for a time they will fall by the sword or be burned or captured or plundered. When they fall, they will receive a little help, and many who are not sincere will join them. Some of the wise will stumble, so they may be refined, purified and made spotless until the time of the end, for it will still come at the appointed time." NIV
To rebuke the churches and doctrines of men.
Thanks for your concern, but pretrib is truth. Jesus is coming first FOR His church, and later WITH His church. This doctrine is scripturally sound. It is what the Holy Spirit believes.
This is sound doctrine: Matthew 11:10-15 This is the one about whom it is written:
"'I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way before you.'
I Tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. From the days of John the Babptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and forcefull men lay hold of it. For ALL the Prophets and the Law prophesied UNTIL John. And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come. He who has ears, let him hear."
John 1:19-21
Now this was John's testimony when the Jews of Jerusalem sent priests and Levites to ask him who he was. He did not fail to confess, but confessed freely, "I am NOT the Christ"
They asked him, "Then who are you? Are you Elijah?"
He said, "I am NOT."
"Are you the prophet?"
He answered, "NO".

So John insisted he was NOT Elijah and yet Jesus said he was.
Coop

 

[lecoop]

Coop

Coop,
I've given a lot of thought to your statements and re-read both book of Revelation and Daniel.
I came to the conclusion we have perspective differences that I can only describe in a figurative way:

It's like you and I are sitting on opposite sides of a table that has a small pedestal in the center and on top the pedestal is a coffee mug at our eye level (This mug represents the prophecy), but the handle is on my side and you don't see it (and neither of us have ever seen this thing before). We are both told to examine it without moving and what you see is not what I see, so my description doesn't match yours; you don't see the handle and argue it's not there. I don't back down from insisting on the handle being there just because you don't see it; the entire matter remains a stalemate.

You have time line confusions plaguing your ability to see what the prophecy says, and you don't want to consider the possibility that there's a handle, something else you don't see yet. I personally believe it would be to your benefit to consider another analogy that might help you see the handle:

Imagine being dropped instantly into the dead middle of a huge battle field and the moment you arrive there you are facing North and told to observe and write down what you see throughout the duration you are allowed to see it.
Then you find yourself facing East and told to do the same thing again, and then South and then West.
All said and done you determine what you saw to the East happened AFTER what you saw in the North, and what happened in the South also happened after what happened in the East, etc. However, the truth is that all you saw happened simultaneously, you just couldn't see what was happening because you don't have eyes around your whole head and can't describe North, East, South, and West at the same time.

Now using what I've said here (if you will) you have multiple explanations of events that overlap, like the prophecy is on transparencies stacked one on top the other looking at all of it at the same time, but you think they read one next to the other, in that order, and this is where you get trapped.
It's because of this that your explanation requires a partial second coming before a complete and total second coming, and that's pure distortion and confusing.

Don't get me wrong, I believe with all my heart most of you truly want to understand.
Here is a critical hint to understanding what you've been told in prophecy;

1 Corinthians 13:12 Now we see but a poor reflection; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. NIV

That statement looked at on the surface doesn't seem like much, but it becomes very deep when considered with this statement;

Hebrews 8:5 They serve in a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. NIV

And yes ALL of Hebrews chapter 8 is significant to get the point of this verse 5 sentence.

Perhaps you would care to expound on why the Holy Spirit had John write of the huge crowd in heaven, in chapter 7, rather than in chapter 19?
The huge crowd that comes out of the great tribulation?

Exactly. John is telling us that at the time of the rapture, people will be dying for their testimony around the world. Many are confused with this, because they are sure Jesus put a TITLE on the last half of the week: "great tribulation." But Jesus did NOT, and these two words together do not have to mean that terrible time AFTER the abomination when the beast sets up the mark, and then says, take the mark or lose the head. You see, John as not yet started the 70th week here in chapter 7, much less got to the midpoint abomination, or to the Beast, whom he covers in chapter 13. So YES, this huge crowd IS the raptured church.

Perhaps you would care to expound on why in verse 6 of 2 Thes. 2 Paul wrote, "and now you know?"
Why did Paul write three VERY similar phrases in 2 thes 2, two with the restrainer in the front half of the verse and the man of sin that would be revealed in the second half of the verse - - - then the third one where the man of sin IS revealed, and instead of restrainer Paul wrote "apostasia?"
Paul is addressing the coming of the Lord, the day of the Lord, and that it won't happen until the man of lawlessness is revealed (being restrained until), when he is revealed (the man of lawlessness, apostasia) he is destroyed by the splendor of the Lord's coming.

You are right, Paul IS addressing His coming and the gathering of the saints. Therefore, somewhere in these few verses we MUST see the gathering! And in fact, we DO. Paul said the man of sin could not be revealed UNTIL the restraining force was removed. (verses 7-8)
Here Paul says the man of sin IS REVEALED: "3....the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction."

Therefore, we KNOW that apostasia is the restraining force REMOVED. (And identified). So Paul wrote, "and know you know" what is restraining. Since the very theme of this passage is the gathering, it makes more sense that by apostasia Paul meant the departure of the church, than any other meaning.
"Apostasia" is a parallel to restrainer. Plain and simple.

Why did Paul not say in 1 Thes 5 that both US and THEY would have to live through the "sudden destruction?" If Paul KNEW the gathering of 1 Thes. 4:17 was at the end of the trib, he could have written chapter 5 MUCH clearer.
Again, Paul addresses the Day of the Lord, the day of His return, that it will come like a thief for those who do not know the Lord, but it won't surprise us (the church) because we are not in darkness but children of the light; we expect Jesus to return.
So, knowing that, "We who are still alive and are left will be caught up with them (the resurrected) in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." Paul did write chapter 5 clearly because he figures you are understanding him when he says the Day of the Lord comes at the end of the age.

On the other hand, if we just believe what Paul says, we get salvation and are forever with the Lord (MUST MEAN rapture - it is when we ARE forever with the Lord, and just a few verses after the classic rapture verse ) while THEY get sudden destruction of the day of the Lord. Paul is telling us that the rapture is back to back with the day of the Lord, or the TRIGGER. When we are gone, the Day of the Lord comes.

Finally, perhaps you would care to explain (finally) how you will get to the Marriage and marriage supper?
(I have yet to hear any plausible explanation from a post tribber on this issue.
And here again, "we who are caught up to be with the Lord forever", are married to Him.

Pretrib puts us IN HEAVEN where the marriage will take place. John makes it clear, the marriage and marriage supper is BEFORE Jesus gets on the white horse and descends to earth to face Armageddon. Therefore, a rapture on HIS way down, prevents ANYONE from a post trib rapture to attend the wedding. The wedding will be OVER when He comes.

I would also like to know how you will find any sheep for the sheep and goat judgment, and sheep for the kingdom.
Jesus said He's the good shepherd and His sheep know His voice, therefore come when they are called, caught up to Him upon His return. Revelation 14:14-20 A double harvesting that takes place at the same time, the first swings his sickle and the earth is harvested, the second swings his sickle and those appointed to wrath are separated from those saved, the chaff separated from the grain.

Sorry, but the harvest of people is not done with sickles: these are figurative and prophetic pictures of the harvest future to that time. Revelation 14 is still at the MIDPOINT of the week. There IS NOT gathering or harvest at the midpoint. This is prophetic and symbolic of the battle of Armageddon for the wicked, and the resurrection of the Old Testament saints (and gathering of Matt. 24) for the righteous.

YOu see, I did not get where I am blindly. I spent many hours reading first, not trying to use human understanding, and many of the same hours praying in the spirit, setting myself up to be taught by the Holy Spirit. I was determined to come with no preconceptions and knowing NOTHING. I came away from this time with HIS doctrine. When we get there, you will find out.
You say that "you" did this of your own accord to learn what it means. I didn't. I had it brought to me by God's will through the Holy Spirit and He spent seven years just to get me to where He could reveal to me the deeper understandings. He called on me NOT the other way around. He gave me what He wanted me to understand and insisted I read the Bible and only the bible, forbidding me to read books of men on the subject (to which I can clearly understand why; they would have tainted the teaching and created warped and distorted understanding). The Lord said to me, "My Word says what it means and means what it says, just because you don't understand at first, doesn't mean it isn't literally true", and proceeded to show me how it is literally true.
You spoke of books you've read by people who went to heaven. The Holy Spirit spent 21 years showing me the entire book of revelation verse by verbatim verse in an entirely different order which reads in perfect order and harmony with the entire Bible. It explains the chronology perfectly in terms of how it all plays out, when, what, where, and how. There is a reason for my understanding and it boils down to fulfillment of prophecy. It is the Lord who calls, and prepares, and builds up His servants for what must soon take place. You don't really believe that our Lord wants us to remain blind and without understanding, do you? I'm finding a church of brethren who seem to, on one hand, believe all that is written, and on the other hand, seem to lack the faith that the Lord fulfills His Word.
So I'll be blunt, much to your disbelief as well as others, and I don't insist on it but believe it will be proven by time itself; the reason I know is because I've been groomed to fulfill what is written, to testify to the fulfillment and thereby fulfill it in my testimony. To prophesy the Great Tribulation into existence, to plague mankind with suffering so they will repent. To read the scroll to the world. To give a little help to those who; Daniel 11:33-35 "Those who are wise will instruct many, though for a time they will fall by the sword or be burned or captured or plundered. When they fall, they will receive a little help, and many who are not sincere will join them. Some of the wise will stumble, so they may be refined, purified and made spotless until the time of the end, for it will still come at the appointed time." NIV
To rebuke the churches and doctrines of men.

Yes, I said I did it - but I did NOT say I did it of my own accord. It was the Holy Spirit that pushed me into reading Revelation. I had no desire to, until He gave it. It was 99% HIM and for me, I was only willing. After reading for many months, it was HE that started bringing revelation knowledge. NO ONE can fake that or make it happen: it is 100% HIM.

"You don't really believe that our Lord wants us to remain blind and without understanding, do you? "

Of course not. Why would you even think that? He said that He would build His church on revelation knowledge. (NOT on Peter.)

"So I'll be blunt, much to your disbelief as well as others, and I don't insist on it but believe it will be proven by time itself; the reason I know is because I've been groomed to fulfill what is written, to testify to the fulfillment and thereby fulfill it in my testimony. To prophesy the Great Tribulation into existence, to plague mankind with suffering so they will repent. To read the scroll to the world."

Oh my. You are right. I don't believe it. I am done right here. You have told me the source of your knowledge.

Coop

 

[guysmith]

Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Revelation 14:1 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.

 

[Elijah674]

Rev. 12:17
[17] And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

These 'REMNANT' came out of the last Laodicean Virgin Candelstick of the Seven Churchs of Rev. 3. This church had the 2 Thess. 2:1-3.'SHAKING' & Laodicea stayed put as did Old Israel when Christ came with His [MIDNIGHT CRY+'s SHAKING!]

These were actual Virgin Doctrine Churchs. The 'Great Multidude' are not those of virgin doctrines per/say until they follow these ones 144000 Virgin Truths. (Psalms 77:13 with Christ INSIDE!) Rev. 18:4 is a MUST! And some will, huh?

OK: This 6th Virgin Fold Candelstick (Rev. 2:5) extends the sixth into the 7th as did the Acts church which was started with only the REMNANT of old Israel. See Matt. 10:5-6!
Matt. 25 is the SHAKING of Matt. 10:5 & 6 onward! The VERDICT WAS [FINAL!] Ibid 15.

Can, these ones of Rev. 17:1-5 become the 144000? 'i' do not see that as a possibility, for Laodicea is already split in two as I see it, with the [FOLDS] door CLOSED. All that is left will be the great multidude that still are being brought out to Phil. Rev. 3:10 & Rev. 18:4 FINAL 666 Testing.

Perhaps there is a little time left for this 144000 group to be made up as individuals? But I do not see it? Yet, being in the Great Multitude is vital for salvation. But, ask yourself, of these from the last 150 years +, do you know of any that have changed their doctrines much? If any?? So, even the Great Multidude will most likely be made up from the COLD OF the world ONES. Rev. 3:16-17

--Elijah

 

[savedbygrace57]

The 144000 are the Church of Christ, all for whom Christ shed His Blood for, all without losing none. 144000 is just a symbolical figure, denoting all the Children God hath given me.

 

[savedbygrace57]

The 144000 and this group rev 5 9 are the same.

rev 5:


9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

rev 14:3

And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

 

[guysmith]

Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Revelation 14:1 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.

What do these two verses have in common? Both are talking about individuals which will "stand" with Christ at a time after Christ's advent.

 

[Elijah674]

Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Revelation 14:1 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.

What do these two verses have in common? Both are talking about individuals which will "stand" with Christ at a time after Christ's advent.

SO??