The Calling of the 144,000

[lecoop]

Hello veteran,

You stated: Concerning what survival tactics those sealed will have to resort to, use the example of Christians living under Communist rule as an example.

My response: I see the coming GT as a time which will be worst for Christians than it was for the Jews in Nazi Germany. Yes, there were survivors far a few between. Do you think these Jewish survivors would have escaped detection if the Nazis had the technology our governments now have at their finger tips?

Guy

Thank God, someone has finally caught on to what Daniel and Revelation have told us: the saints are to be overcome. I have said many times it will be WORSE than a Jew living in Berlin in 1943. Truely, it could not be much worse, but this time it will be on a FAR BIGGER scale; perhaps nearly world wide. WHERE will someone go to hide? Many Jews escaped Europe and were safe - but where can one go this time that will be "safe?" Good job, Guy!!

Coop

 

[guysmith]

Coop,

This does not mean there will be no hope for physical survival through the GT. My point is that the Anti-Christ's holocaust will be so thorough that the only 'survivors' will be found in God's appointed location.

Guy

 

[lecoop]

Coop,

This does not mean there will be no hope for physical survival through the GT. My point is that the Anti-Christ's holocaust will be so thorough that the only 'survivors' will be found in God's appointed location.

Guy

And that is where you and I differ, at least to some extent. I am convinced that God will not abandon His own, but will do what He can to help them survive, where ever they live. It is a myth that God will call Christians from around the world to somewhere in Israel for protection. It is possible that some will survive in the Great Northwest, perhaps Yukon wilderness, or BC wilderness. Yes, even wilderness places in the US. But it will be VERY difficult to live when you can trust no one. The "judgement of the nations" shows us that there will be some nations that will assist, and others that will not. I am sure this will be true on an individual basis too. Certainly God will warn His own to go here or go there to avoid detection.

Coop

 

[veteran]

Hello veteran,

You stated: Concerning what survival tactics those sealed will have to resort to, use the example of Christians living under Communist rule as an example.

My response: I see the coming GT as a time which will be worst for Christians than it was for the Jews in Nazi Germany. Yes, there were survivors far a few between. Do you think these Jewish survivors would have escaped detection if the Nazis had the technology our governments now have at their finger tips?

Guy

It won't be bad for all... Christians in the physical sense, not deceived Christians who are drunk in the night. It won't be exactly like Nazi Germany, where they hunted down Jews just because of their birth. It's going to be about who one believes on and worships, like the Babylon captivity. The difference will be that many Christian brethren will be deceived into bowing to the false messiah in place of our Lord Jesus. They will not suspect that false messiah could be anyone other than our Lord Jesus. That's what the great falling away is really going to be about, and it has not begun yet, for that false messiah for the end of days is not manifested yet. The whole world will know when he does show up, because the final antichrist is going to do supernatural wonders on the earth that no human has done before since Jesus came. He will work miracles on the level of our Lord Jesus that will make the deceived believe he is GOD.

Deceived brethren will turn in even a one loved who refuses to bow to the false messiah, simply because they will think false messiah is Christ Jesus having returned. They won't understand how those sealed by God that profess to believe on Christ will refuse to bow to the fake they will believe is our Lord Jesus. Not just technology, but many of our own family and friends that are deceived will be against us.

Matt 10:34-38
34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
37 He that loveth father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.
38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after Me, is not worthy of Me.
(KJV)

Our Lord Jesus was quoting from Micah 7 there in Matt.10. Micah 7 covers tribulation timing leadng up to Christ's return, and then after Christ's return.

Micah 7:5-7
5 Trust ye not in a friend, put ye not confidence in a guide: keep the doors of thy mouth from her that lieth in thy bosom.
6 For the son dishonoureth the father, the daughter riseth up against her mother, the daughter in law against her mother in law; a man's enemies are the men of his own house.
7 Therefore I will look unto the LORD; I will wait for the God of my salvation: my God will hear me.
(KJV)

So whatever indignation those sealed by God are appointed to bear during the tribulation from His enemies, then that indignation we must bear until Christ comes. We are to wait on Him, for His coming, and not fall away to the fake messiah. If it leads to flesh death of our body for some, then so be it. We are bear our cross for Jesus. But remember what Paul taught in 1 Cor.15 about the "last trump". There will be sealed Christians remaining alive on earth when Christ does come to end the tribulation. How they will be protected God knows. That time was shortened by our Lord Jesus to five months per Rev.9, for that is the amount of time the locusts are allowed to sting those who don't have God's seal.

 

[lecoop]

Hello veteran,

You stated: Concerning what survival tactics those sealed will have to resort to, use the example of Christians living under Communist rule as an example.

My response: I see the coming GT as a time which will be worst for Christians than it was for the Jews in Nazi Germany. Yes, there were survivors far a few between. Do you think these Jewish survivors would have escaped detection if the Nazis had the technology our governments now have at their finger tips?

Guy

It won't be bad for all... Christians in the physical sense, not deceived Christians who are drunk in the night. It won't be exactly like Nazi Germany, where they hunted down Jews just because of their birth. It's going to be about who one believes on and worships, like the Babylon captivity. The difference will be that many Christian brethren will be deceived into bowing to the false messiah in place of our Lord Jesus. They will not suspect that false messiah could be anyone other than our Lord Jesus. That's what the great falling away is really going to be about, and it has not begun yet, for that false messiah for the end of days is not manifested yet. The whole world will know when he does show up, because the final antichrist is going to do supernatural wonders on the earth that no human has done before since Jesus came. He will work miracles on the level of our Lord Jesus that will make the deceived believe he is GOD.

Deceived brethren will turn in even a one loved who refuses to bow to the false messiah, simply because they will think false messiah is Christ Jesus having returned. They won't understand how those sealed by God that profess to believe on Christ will refuse to bow to the fake they will believe is our Lord Jesus. Not just technology, but many of our own family and friends that are deceived will be against us.

Matt 10:34-38
34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
37 He that loveth father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.
38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after Me, is not worthy of Me.
(KJV)

Our Lord Jesus was quoting from Micah 7 there in Matt.10. Micah 7 covers tribulation timing leadng up to Christ's return, and then after Christ's return.

Micah 7:5-7
5 Trust ye not in a friend, put ye not confidence in a guide: keep the doors of thy mouth from her that lieth in thy bosom.
6 For the son dishonoureth the father, the daughter riseth up against her mother, the daughter in law against her mother in law; a man's enemies are the men of his own house.
7 Therefore I will look unto the LORD; I will wait for the God of my salvation: my God will hear me.
(KJV)

So whatever indignation those sealed by God are appointed to bear during the tribulation from His enemies, then that indignation we must bear until Christ comes. We are to wait on Him, for His coming, and not fall away to the fake messiah. If it leads to flesh death of our body for some, then so be it. We are bear our cross for Jesus. But remember what Paul taught in 1 Cor.15 about the "last trump". There will be sealed Christians remaining alive on earth when Christ does come to end the tribulation. How they will be protected God knows. That time was shortened by our Lord Jesus to five months per Rev.9, for that is the amount of time the locusts are allowed to sting those who don't have God's seal.

Sorry, Veteran, but I don't believe ANY of this. Can the elect be deceived? You missed one important verse:

13:8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

So are those that love Jesus born again? Are their names written in heaven? The answer is, OF COURSE. Therefore, Christians will NOT be deceived. It is possible - even probable - that church goers that are NOT born again will be deceived. It is possible that some Jews will be deceived. It is VERY Possible that all Muslims will be deceived (since they already are) and most of the rest of the entire world population.

Since you have failed to recognize that the church will be gone, you have to theorize much of the rest. The truth is, MOST of those that refuse the mark, will be put to death. That is the very meaning of being overcome. If you insist on being left behind, expect to die for your testimony.

Coop

 

[guysmith]

Zechariah 12: 1 This is the word of the LORD concerning Israel. The LORD, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the spirit of man within him, declares: 2 "I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. 3 On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves. 4 On that day I will strike every horse with panic and its rider with madness," declares the LORD. "I will keep a watchful eye over the house of Judah, but I will blind all the horses of the nations. 5 Then the leaders of Judah will say in their hearts, 'The people of Jerusalem are strong, because the LORD Almighty is their God.'
6 "On that day I will make the leaders of Judah like a firepot in a woodpile, like a flaming torch among sheaves. They will consume right and left all the surrounding peoples, but Jerusalem will remain intact in her place.
7 "The LORD will save the dwellings of Judah first, so that the honor of the house of David and of Jerusalem's inhabitants may not be greater than that of Judah. 8 On that day the LORD will shield those who live in Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the Angel of the LORD going before them. 9 On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem.

This is the calling of the 144,000.

Guy

 

[veteran]

Sorry, Veteran, but I don't believe ANY of this. Can the elect be deceived? You missed one important verse:

13:8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

So are those that love Jesus born again? Are their names written in heaven? The answer is, OF COURSE. Therefore, Christians will NOT be deceived. It is possible - even probable - that church goers that are NOT born again will be deceived. It is possible that some Jews will be deceived. It is VERY Possible that all Muslims will be deceived (since they already are) and most of the rest of the entire world population.

Since you have failed to recognize that the church will be gone, you have to theorize much of the rest. The truth is, MOST of those that refuse the mark, will be put to death. That is the very meaning of being overcome. If you insist on being left behind, expect to die for your testimony.

Coop

I guess the idea that ALL Christians are going to be here for the great tribulation scares the pants off you. It should scare all those not 'sealed' who listen to the doctrines of men about trying to escape it, instead of being prepared to make a stand in the evil day for Christ Jesus.

If you stay on the false Pre-trib "secret rapture" doctrine, you won't have to worry about the persecution by the antichrist, because you'll already be in his hand when he comes to fool you into thinking he's our Lord Jesus.

Here's a little Message from our LORD to those preachers who preach the 'fly away' doctrine...

Ezek 13:18-23
18 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of My people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?
19 And will ye pollute Me among My people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to My people that hear your lies?
20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.
21 Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver My people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:
23 Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver My people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
(KJV)

 

[lecoop]

I guess the idea that ALL Christians are going to be here for the great tribulation scares the pants off you. It should scare all those not 'sealed' who listen to the doctrines of men about trying to escape it, instead of being prepared to make a stand in the evil day for Christ Jesus.

No, it is not that I have any kind of fear. It is that I understand first, the character of God. And second, the verses that pertain to the rapture. Sorry, but the intent of 1 Thes. 4 & 5 IS a pretrib rapture. And it is made quite clear in 2 Thes. 2.

If you stay on the false Pre-trib "secret rapture" doctrine, you won't have to worry about the persecution by the antichrist, because you'll already be in his hand when he comes to fool you into thinking he's our Lord Jesus.

You are mistaken, not understanding the scriptures: WHO gets deceived?

Rev 13
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Why is this so difficult for you to believe? Those whose names are written in the book, will NOT be deceived. However, most of them will be put to death.

Here's a little Message from our LORD to those preachers who preach the 'fly away' doctrine...

Ezek 13:18-23
18 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of My people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?
19 And will ye pollute Me among My people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to My people that hear your lies?
20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.
21 Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver My people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:
23 Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver My people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
(KJV)

When you KNOW that to meet Jesus in the air, we must either float or fly, why even post such a verse that has NOTHING to do with the topic? Do you like straw-men?


1 Thes. 4
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:

Even a child knows where the clouds are, and what air is. By WHOSE power are these raised? of course by the power of the Holy Spirit. How sad that you would confuse the power of the Holy Spirit with the power of the devil. Not only sad, but dangerous. The Pharisee's did the same thing.

Coop

 

[guysmith]

Luke 21
36Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Revelation 14
1Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. 2And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.

This is the calling of the 144,000

Guy

 

[lecoop]

Luke 21
36Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Revelation 14
1Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. 2And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.

This is the calling of the 144,000

Guy

WHO are these? The are all descendants of Jacob.
WHERE are they? They are around the throne in heaven.
........Please note "BEFORE the throne and BEFORE the four living creatures and the 24 elders.
WHAT are they here? They are REDEEMED from the earth. They are in heaven. They are NOT the church, and have no relation with the church. They are FIRSTFRUITS of the Jews (Hebrews).

Coop

 

[guysmith]

Joel 2
18 Then the LORD will be jealous for his land
and take pity on his people.
19 The LORD will reply [a] to them:
"I am sending you grain, new wine and oil,
enough to satisfy you fully;
never again will I make you
an object of scorn to the nations.

20 "I will drive the northern army far from you,
pushing it into a parched and barren land,
with its front columns going into the eastern sea
and those in the rear into the western sea. [c]
And its stench will go up;
its smell will rise."
Surely he has done great things. [d]

21 Be not afraid, O land;
be glad and rejoice.
Surely the LORD has done great things.

22 Be not afraid, O wild animals,
for the open pastures are becoming green.
The trees are bearing their fruit;
the fig tree and the vine yield their riches.

23 Be glad, O people of Zion,
rejoice in the LORD your God,
for he has given you
the autumn rains in righteousness. [e]
He sends you abundant showers,
both autumn and spring rains, as before.

24 The threshing floors will be filled with grain;
the vats will overflow with new wine and oil.

25 "I will repay you for the years the locusts have eaten—
the great locust and the young locust,
the other locusts and the locust swarm [f]—
my great army that I sent among you.

26 You will have plenty to eat, until you are full,
and you will praise the name of the LORD your God,
who has worked wonders for you;
never again will my people be shamed.

27 Then you will know that I am in Israel,
that I am the LORD your God,
and that there is no other;
never again will my people be shamed.

The Day of the LORD
28 "And afterward,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your old men will dream dreams,
your young men will see visions.
29 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days.

30 I will show wonders in the heavens
and on the earth,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.

31 The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.

32 And everyone who calls
on the name of the LORD will be saved;
for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
there will be deliverance,
as the LORD has said,
among the survivors
whom the LORD calls.

This the calling of the 144,000

Guy

 

[lecoop]

Joel 2
18 Then the LORD will be jealous for his land
and take pity on his people.
19 The LORD will reply [a] to them:
"I am sending you grain, new wine and oil,
enough to satisfy you fully;
never again will I make you
an object of scorn to the nations.

20 "I will drive the northern army far from you,
pushing it into a parched and barren land,
with its front columns going into the eastern sea
and those in the rear into the western sea. [c]
And its stench will go up;
its smell will rise."
Surely he has done great things. [d]

21 Be not afraid, O land;
be glad and rejoice.
Surely the LORD has done great things.

22 Be not afraid, O wild animals,
for the open pastures are becoming green.
The trees are bearing their fruit;
the fig tree and the vine yield their riches.

23 Be glad, O people of Zion,
rejoice in the LORD your God,
for he has given you
the autumn rains in righteousness. [e]
He sends you abundant showers,
both autumn and spring rains, as before.

24 The threshing floors will be filled with grain;
the vats will overflow with new wine and oil.

25 "I will repay you for the years the locusts have eaten—
the great locust and the young locust,
the other locusts and the locust swarm [f]—
my great army that I sent among you.

26 You will have plenty to eat, until you are full,
and you will praise the name of the LORD your God,
who has worked wonders for you;
never again will my people be shamed.

27 Then you will know that I am in Israel,
that I am the LORD your God,
and that there is no other;
never again will my people be shamed.

The Day of the LORD
28 "And afterward,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your old men will dream dreams,
your young men will see visions.
29 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days.

30 I will show wonders in the heavens
and on the earth,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.

31 The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.

32 And everyone who calls
on the name of the LORD will be saved;
for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
there will be deliverance,
as the LORD has said,
among the survivors
whom the LORD calls.

This the calling of the 144,000

Guy

Strange, I was SURE the SEALING of the 144,000 was found in Rev. chapter 7, and the RAPTURE (or the effects of it) of the 144,000 are found in chapter 14. I don't think Joel had a CLUE he was talking about the 144,000 of the 70th week. I don't think anyone else does either.

Coop

 

[Andrew]

Sorry, Veteran, but I don't believe ANY of this. Can the elect be deceived? You missed one important verse:

13:8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

So are those that love Jesus born again? Are their names written in heaven? The answer is, OF COURSE. Therefore, Christians will NOT be deceived. It is possible - even probable - that church goers that are NOT born again will be deceived. It is possible that some Jews will be deceived. It is VERY Possible that all Muslims will be deceived (since they already are) and most of the rest of the entire world population.

Since you have failed to recognize that the church will be gone, you have to theorize much of the rest. The truth is, MOST of those that refuse the mark, will be put to death. That is the very meaning of being overcome. If you insist on being left behind, expect to die for your testimony.

Coop

I guess the idea that ALL Christians are going to be here for the great tribulation scares the pants off you. It should scare all those not 'sealed' who listen to the doctrines of men about trying to escape it, instead of being prepared to make a stand in the evil day for Christ Jesus.

If you stay on the false Pre-trib "secret rapture" doctrine, you won't have to worry about the persecution by the antichrist, because you'll already be in his hand when he comes to fool you into thinking he's our Lord Jesus.

Here's a little Message from our LORD to those preachers who preach the 'fly away' doctrine...

Ezek 13:18-23
18 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of My people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?
19 And will ye pollute Me among My people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to My people that hear your lies?
20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.
21 Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver My people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:
23 Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver My people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
(KJV)

Quoting from NIV
2 Peter 3:15 Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother PAUL also wrote you with the wisdom God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, SPEAKING IN THEM OF THESE MATTERS. His letters contain somethings that are hard to understand, WHICH IGNORANT AND UNSTABLE PEOPLE DISTORT, as they do the other scriptures, to their own destruction.

And what did Paul say?

1 Thessalonians 4:15 According to the Lord's own Word, we tell you that WE who are still alive, will CERTAINLY NOT precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 AFTER THAT, we who are still alive and are LEFT will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Then, just one sentence away Paul says in 5:2 ..., for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.

And Peter says in 2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.

and further on Peter says in verse 12

as YOU look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with His promise WE are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.

And Jesus Christ who is that same Lord says in Matthew 24:22 If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

and then Jesus gets to saying this @ Matthew 24:31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.(as in; from point "A" to point "B", as Paul clearly states in 1 Cor. 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed- 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed)

To me it's as plain as the nose on my face. It's not rocket science, but thanks to both Paul and Peter I clearly see the distortion they spoke of and the people to whom they referred. Because Jesus Christ is the beginning and THE END; His arrival is final and completes all things in this age.

It's the time space continuum that has most of you caught off guard. The time line that the deceived and deceivers want people to buy into is that of THIS world. You have yet to truly believe what you've been told and so can't fathom how it's over and done with for God and yet not for you.

If you truly want to understand the time line, you have to go sit on God's lap and allow Him to read His Word to you while you stare down at His footstool, then you will see. When we try to hold on to dominion, we distort God's Word.

God hid His best kept secret in plain sight for all to see and to over look throughout history so that He can have dominion over all things.

Revelation14:13 Then I heard a loud voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on."

In our world, in our time line, eternity is understood like this, "Who was, and is, and is to come".
In God's time line eternity is NOW, and now NEVER changes.
In our time line we see the future as what's to come, if you want to see the future you have to see what once was, and now is not, and yet will come. I know my future because it's in the past of God's plan, His time line. If I stand in Jesus (who is the end) I see by looking back on what once was and now is not, and this is how I see what will come.

Matthew 24:45 Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in His household to give them their food at the proper time?

I tell you the truth, I am. And as Jesus draws near so does the end, and with that the fulfillment, and with the fulfillment; the understanding you all seek to find.

Luke 8:16 "No one lights a lamp and hides it in a jar or puts it under a bed. Instead, He puts it on a stand, so that those who come in can see the light. 17 For there is NOTHING hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be made known or brought out into the open. 18 Therefore consider carefully how you listen. Whoever has will be given more; whoever does not have, even what he thinks he has will be taken from him."

As the Lord has groomed me to be the instrument of His righteousness, so I will be my brothers and sisters keeper, but a nightmare to those who will certainly perish. I will build up and I will tear down. I will protect and I will destroy. We are drawing near as the Lord draws near to us, and all will fall into place as He has promised. Fear not, those of you who fear the Lord, for He will be your shelter from the coming storm.
1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with Him. 11 Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.
Rev. 13:10 If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity he will go. If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword he will be killed. This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on part of the saints.
Daniel 12:7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted His right hand and His left hand toward heaven, and I heard Him swear by Him who lives forever, saying, "It will be for a time, times, and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed."

 

[lecoop]

I guess the idea that ALL Christians are going to be here for the great tribulation scares the pants off you. It should scare all those not 'sealed' who listen to the doctrines of men about trying to escape it, instead of being prepared to make a stand in the evil day for Christ Jesus.

If you stay on the false Pre-trib "secret rapture" doctrine, you won't have to worry about the persecution by the antichrist, because you'll already be in his hand when he comes to fool you into thinking he's our Lord Jesus.

Here's a little Message from our LORD to those preachers who preach the 'fly away' doctrine...

Ezek 13:18-23
18 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of My people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?
19 And will ye pollute Me among My people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to My people that hear your lies?
20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.
21 Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver My people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:
23 Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver My people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
(KJV)

Quoting from NIV
2 Peter 3:15 Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother PAUL also wrote you with the wisdom God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, SPEAKING IN THEM OF THESE MATTERS. His letters contain somethings that are hard to understand, WHICH IGNORANT AND UNSTABLE PEOPLE DISTORT, as they do the other scriptures, to their own destruction.

And what did Paul say?

1 Thessalonians 4:15 According to the Lord's own Word, we tell you that WE who are still alive, will CERTAINLY NOT precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 AFTER THAT, we who are still alive and are LEFT will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Then, just one sentence away Paul says in 5:2 ..., for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.

And Peter says in 2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.

and further on Peter says in verse 12

as YOU look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with His promise WE are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.

And Jesus Christ who is that same Lord says in Matthew 24:22 If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

and then Jesus gets to saying this @ Matthew 24:31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.(as in; from point "A" to point "B", as Paul clearly states in 1 Cor. 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed- 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed)

To me it's as plain as the nose on my face. It's not rocket science, but thanks to both Paul and Peter I clearly see the distortion they spoke of and the people to whom they referred. Because Jesus Christ is the beginning and THE END; His arrival is final and completes all things in this age.

It's the time space continuum that has most of you caught off guard. The time line that the deceived and deceivers want people to buy into is that of THIS world. You have yet to truly believe what you've been told and so can't fathom how it's over and done with for God and yet not for you.

If you truly want to understand the time line, you have to go sit on God's lap and allow Him to read His Word to you while you stare down at His footstool, then you will see. When we try to hold on to dominion, we distort God's Word.

God hid His best kept secret in plain sight for all to see and to over look throughout history so that He can have dominion over all things.

Revelation14:13 Then I heard a loud voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on."

In our world, in our time line, eternity is understood like this, "Who was, and is, and is to come".
In God's time line eternity is NOW, and now NEVER changes.
In our time line we see the future as what's to come, if you want to see the future you have to see what once was, and now is not, and yet will come. I know my future because it's in the past of God's plan, His time line. If I stand in Jesus (who is the end) I see by looking back on what once was and now is not, and this is how I see what will come.

Matthew 24:45 Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in His household to give them their food at the proper time?

I tell you the truth, I am. And as Jesus draws near so does the end, and with that the fulfillment, and with the fulfillment; the understanding you all seek to find.

Luke 8:16 "No one lights a lamp and hides it in a jar or puts it under a bed. Instead, He puts it on a stand, so that those who come in can see the light. 17 For there is NOTHING hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be made known or brought out into the open. 18 Therefore consider carefully how you listen. Whoever has will be given more; whoever does not have, even what he thinks he has will be taken from him."

As the Lord has groomed me to be the instrument of His righteousness, so I will be my brothers and sisters keeper, but a nightmare to those who will certainly perish. I will build up and I will tear down. I will protect and I will destroy. We are drawing near as the Lord draws near to us, and all will fall into place as He has promised. Fear not, those of you who fear the Lord, for He will be your shelter from the coming storm.
1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with Him. 11 Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.
Rev. 13:10 If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity he will go. If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword he will be killed. This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on part of the saints.
Daniel 12:7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted His right hand and His left hand toward heaven, and I heard Him swear by Him who lives forever, saying, "It will be for a time, times, and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed."

Somehow you have written an entire post, with much scripture, and I am still not sure what you were trying to say. Were you hinting that there are some "IGNORANT AND UNSTABLE PEOPLE" here on this forum that distort God's word? I already suspected that.


Yes, just a few verses after the rapture verse, Paul DID say that the day of the Lord will come as a thief, meaning totally unexpected and at a time when they are not prepared. But Jesus Himself said HE would come as a thief also. If we really study what Paul is saying, THEY get the sudden destruction of the "day of the Lord," while WE get salvation - for we have NO appointment with His wrath (day of the Lord.) But again, IN CONTEXT, just a few verses after the rapture. IN CONTEXT Paul is telling us that the rapture is the TRIGGER for the day of the Lord. the moment we get salvation via the rapture, the world gets the sudden destruction.

However, when Jesus mentioned days being shortened, He was not speaking of the Day of the Lord specifically; He was speaking of "those days" of "great tribulation. You can be SURE there will be "elect" on earth, even AFTER the pretrib rapture of the church. There will be some of the Jews that will make it to the end of the week alive, and become a part of the millennial kingdom. And there will be some Gentiles that will turn to God AFTER the pretrib rapture, and they too will be saints. My guess is that there will be millions of them.

Again you are confusing one gathering with another. It truly is as plain as the nose on one's face; the rapture gathers people from the EARTH, not the heavens. The rapture will require NO ANGELS save the Arch Angel. The rapture includes a resurrection. The rapture comes as a trigger for the Day of the Lord.
Therefore, the rapture comes BEFORE the day of the Lord and before the 70th week begins.

The gathering Jesus spoke of gathers from one end of HEAVEN to the other. And it takes ANGELS to do the gathering. And it is AFTER the "tribulation" of those days. It is when Christ returns to earth, as seen in Revelation 19. Speaking of REvelation 19, that is AFTER the 70th week has finished with the 7th vial. But John showed us the raptured church way back in Revelation 7, as the crowd TOO LARGE to number. CLEARLY there will be TWO gatherings, one before the 70th week, and one AFTER the 70th week. The first takes the church to heaven.

CERTAINLY those that refuse the mark, and lose their head, will have a SPECIAL blessing from God! But the truth is, God is NOT HAPPY that any of them die. His plan was that they ESCAPE all these things vial the pretrib rapture. But reality is that MANY will be left behind, and will turn to God then. And they will certainly have to face the beast.

For me and my house, we will take God's plan of ESCAPE and are looking for that blessed hope, the coming of our Lord to the AIR and the rapture of the saints.

Coop

 

[Andrew]

Well Coop, I can't deny you that hope, and in fact would love to believe it will go that way for all. However, I believe that if God wanted total mercy, and zero suffering for the church, He wouldn't have said we can expect trials and tribulations in this life.
Suffering leads to repentance, and I expect that the Great Tribulation will lead you to repentance from this pre-trib rapture thinking.

There are secrets about to be revealed. They cannot be revealed until the proper time because of what they mean to the overall plan. So we just have to wait until He gives the go ahead and that will come with the two witnesses reading the scroll to the world.

I can tell you this because it doesn't change what people currently believe, or understand;
That scroll contains the entire testimony of Jesus Christ. It was dictated to His servants the prophets and they wrote it down (Malachi 3:16-18). He also called upon His servants the apostles and they made their contributions to it as well. Most Christians have a copy of it, it is the Holy Bible. His story from Alpha to Omega, from beginning to end, from the first letter to the last. It gives complete instructions on how to understand it but unfortunately, also makes it clear that most don't do what it says. We, the people of God, are stubborn and obstinate, arrogant to the point we don't listen. We presume to be teachers before we humble ourselves to be students. We say, "That's figurative and metaphorical", every time we don't understand what God has said, and then we draw conclusions about it's meaning.
This is what's happening now, right here in this, and other forums and fellowships.

When we get the explanation, I guarantee we'll all say, "Only you God, could think this up and execute it this way." It's perfect, not a flaw in the plan.
So may our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ bless each and every one of you with revelation and understanding, and give you the insight you need to "see".

 

[lecoop]

Well Coop, I can't deny you that hope, and in fact would love to believe it will go that way for all. However, I believe that if God wanted total mercy, and zero suffering for the church, He wouldn't have said we can expect trials and tribulations in this life.
Suffering leads to repentance, and I expect that the Great Tribulation will lead you to repentance from this pre-trib rapture thinking.

Brother Andrew,

Actually, I got to meet the brother Andrew that used to take bibles into very dangerous places! But I doubt if you are him.

I know you believe in your heart that pretrib thinking is something that must be repented from. But it is certainly not the truth of the bible. To know for sure whether the rapture is pre - mid - or post, one first must be able to recognize where the "trib" (70th week) is in Revelation. I say this because Revelation is the most complete thesis we have on end times. And I find that most people really and truly have no clue as to where the 70th week begins in Revelation. I know the entire 70th week is "Marked" by the sevens. I know this because as you put it yesterday, I DID spent time on God's lap and allowed Him to teach me. The 70th week begins with the 7th seal and ends with the 7th vial. And the midpoint is clearly marked with the 7th trumpet. It is astounding to me how many arguments I get just with this.

But John was not done with that: He very plainly shows us the raptured church in heaven, BEFORE the 7th seal is broken. He was SO CAREFUL that he broke from his narrative of the seals, after the 6th seal, to make SURE we know that the rapture (and the sealing) will be BEFORE the 70th week begins.

Then Paul did the same thing. Just three verses AFTER the classical rapture verse, Paul speaks of the day of the Lord coming like a thief, exactly the way Jesus describes His coming. Paul goes on to say that "they" get the sudden destruction" of the day of the Lord, while "we" and "us" get salvation, because we have no appointment with the sudden destruction of the day of the Lord. The REASON we don't get the sudden destruction is simply because we are already gone.

Paul tells us the same thing again, in comparing the apostasia with the restrainer, in not one, not two, but THREE verses. Whatever Paul meant by apostasia, it MUST be "taken out of the way," or "gone from the midst." I believe it was a HUGE mistake of the KJV translators to change from the word "departing" or departure that the first few English translations put for apostasia. "THE rapture" is definitely a "taking out of the way." And it makes good sense that the Holy Spirit, working through the church, is the restrainer.

Therefore I see THREE good proofs of a pretrib rapture. Next, I have in my library many, not a few, books from people that have been allowed to go to heaven, and come back and write about it. Some of these people were allowed to see the rapture in a vision. Others were told by Jesus Himself that the NEXT great event to happen will be the pretrib rapture. It is strange, but I have yet to read anyone that has been allowed to speak with Jesus, and Jesus told them that they would have to go through the 70th week. NONE have told of a post trib rapture.

Therefore, I believe there is NOTHING in my belief of a pretrib rapture that will require repentance.
If it is your great desire to be here, I really and truly believe that God will give you what you are believing for. The bible has many verses that tell us we get exactly what we are believing for. Is facing the beast something you really want to have faith in - when Jesus said we can escape?

Coop

 

[Andrew]

Coop,
I've given a lot of thought to your statements and re-read both book of Revelation and Daniel.
I came to the conclusion we have perspective differences that I can only describe in a figurative way:

It's like you and I are sitting on opposite sides of a table that has a small pedestal in the center and on top the pedestal is a coffee mug at our eye level (This mug represents the prophecy), but the handle is on my side and you don't see it (and neither of us have ever seen this thing before). We are both told to examine it without moving and what you see is not what I see, so my description doesn't match yours; you don't see the handle and argue it's not there. I don't back down from insisting on the handle being there just because you don't see it; the entire matter remains a stalemate.

You have time line confusions plaguing your ability to see what the prophecy says, and you don't want to consider the possibility that there's a handle, something else you don't see yet. I personally believe it would be to your benefit to consider another analogy that might help you see the handle:

Imagine being dropped instantly into the dead middle of a huge battle field and the moment you arrive there you are facing North and told to observe and write down what you see throughout the duration you are allowed to see it.
Then you find yourself facing East and told to do the same thing again, and then South and then West.
All said and done you determine what you saw to the East happened AFTER what you saw in the North, and what happened in the South also happened after what happened in the East, etc. However, the truth is that all you saw happened simultaneously, you just couldn't see what was happening because you don't have eyes around your whole head and can't describe North, East, South, and West at the same time.

Now using what I've said here (if you will) you have multiple explanations of events that overlap, like the prophecy is on transparencies stacked one on top the other looking at all of it at the same time, but you think they read one next to the other, in that order, and this is where you get trapped.
It's because of this that your explanation requires a partial second coming before a complete and total second coming, and that's pure distortion and confusing.

Don't get me wrong, I believe with all my heart most of you truly want to understand.
Here is a critical hint to understanding what you've been told in prophecy;

1 Corinthians 13:12 Now we see but a poor reflection; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. NIV

That statement looked at on the surface doesn't seem like much, but it becomes very deep when considered with this statement;

Hebrews 8:5 They serve in a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. NIV

And yes ALL of Hebrews chapter 8 is significant to get the point of this verse 5 sentence.

 

[lecoop]

Coop,
I've given a lot of thought to your statements and re-read both book of Revelation and Daniel.
I came to the conclusion we have perspective differences that I can only describe in a figurative way:

It's like you and I are sitting on opposite sides of a table that has a small pedestal in the center and on top the pedestal is a coffee mug at our eye level (This mug represents the prophecy), but the handle is on my side and you don't see it (and neither of us have ever seen this thing before). We are both told to examine it without moving and what you see is not what I see, so my description doesn't match yours; you don't see the handle and argue it's not there. I don't back down from insisting on the handle being there just because you don't see it; the entire matter remains a stalemate.

You have time line confusions plaguing your ability to see what the prophecy says, and you don't want to consider the possibility that there's a handle, something else you don't see yet. I personally believe it would be to your benefit to consider another analogy that might help you see the handle:

Imagine being dropped instantly into the dead middle of a huge battle field and the moment you arrive there you are facing North and told to observe and write down what you see throughout the duration you are allowed to see it.
Then you find yourself facing East and told to do the same thing again, and then South and then West.
All said and done you determine what you saw to the East happened AFTER what you saw in the North, and what happened in the South also happened after what happened in the East, etc. However, the truth is that all you saw happened simultaneously, you just couldn't see what was happening because you don't have eyes around your whole head and can't describe North, East, South, and West at the same time.

Now using what I've said here (if you will) you have multiple explanations of events that overlap, like the prophecy is on transparencies stacked one on top the other looking at all of it at the same time, but you think they read one next to the other, in that order, and this is where you get trapped.
It's because of this that your explanation requires a partial second coming before a complete and total second coming, and that's pure distortion and confusing.

Don't get me wrong, I believe with all my heart most of you truly want to understand.
Here is a critical hint to understanding what you've been told in prophecy;

1 Corinthians 13:12 Now we see but a poor reflection; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. NIV

That statement looked at on the surface doesn't seem like much, but it becomes very deep when considered with this statement;

Hebrews 8:5 They serve in a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. NIV

And yes ALL of Hebrews chapter 8 is significant to get the point of this verse 5 sentence.

Perhaps you would care to expound on why the Holy Spirit had John write of the huge crowd in heaven, in chapter 7, rather than in chapter 19?

Perhaps you would care to expound on why in verse 6 of 2 Thes. 2 Paul wrote, "and now you know?"
Why did Paul write three VERY similar phrases in 2 thes 2, two with the restrainer in the front half of the verse and the man of sin that would be revealed in the second half of the verse - - - then the third one where the man of sin IS revealed, and instead of restrainer Paul wrote "apostasia?"

Why did Paul not say in 1 Thes 5 that both US and THEY would have to live through the "sudden destruction?" If Paul KNEW the gathering of 1 Thes. 4:17 was at the end of the trib, he could have written chapter 5 MUCH clearer.

Finally, perhaps you would care to explain (finally) how you will get to the Marriage and marriage supper?
(I have yet to hear any plausible explanation from a post tribber on this issue.

I would also like to know how you will find any sheep for the sheep and goat judgment, and sheep for the kingdom.

YOu see, I did not get where I am blindly. I spent many hours reading first, not trying to use human understanding, and many of the same hours praying in the spirit, setting myself up to be taught by the Holy Spirit. I was determined to come with no preconceptions and knowing NOTHING. I came away from this time with HIS doctrine. When we get there, you will find out.

Thanks for your concern, but pretrib is truth. Jesus is coming first FOR His church, and later WITH His church. This doctrine is scripturally sound. It is what the Holy Spirit believes.

Coop

 

[GojuBrian]

Will they use facebook or twitter when they call the 144,000? That's the real question!! :help

 

[lecoop]

Will they use facebook or twitter when they call the 144,000? That's the real question!! :help

Hmmm. The 144,000 are SEALED, not "called."

Coop