The Calling of the 144,000

[veteran]

Amazing how you form your doctrine on three verses in John, when Revelation covers the same events in hundreds of verses. It is always wiser to form doctrine on the most complete revelation. John shows us very clearly that the unsaved dead are resurrected, but LATER than the first resurrection - at a different time. They are NOT resurrection on the same 24 hour day as the righteous dead.

Coop

If you had actually read and understood John 5:28-29 and compared it to Matt.25:31-33, and even with Rev.22:14-15, you'd be able to 'see' all those Scriptures align with each other. But another spirit has blinded you because of holding to the traditions of men.

 

[lecoop]

Amazing how you form your doctrine on three verses in John, when Revelation covers the same events in hundreds of verses. It is always wiser to form doctrine on the most complete revelation. John shows us very clearly that the unsaved dead are resurrected, but LATER than the first resurrection - at a different time. They are NOT resurrection on the same 24 hour day as the righteous dead.

Coop

If you had actually read and understood John 5:28-29 and compared it to Matt.25:31-33, and even with Rev.22:14-15, you'd be able to 'see' all those Scriptures align with each other. But another spirit has blinded you because of holding to the traditions of men.

As usual, you are just blowing smoke, a cover in hopes others will not see the truth.

Here is what you said, and I answered:

Veteran wrote:

In Matt.25, our Lord Jesus explained that at His coming, His angels are going to gather all nations before His Throne in judgment, and then He will separate His sheep from the goats. There are too many on this Forum denying that event, for it is hard Scripture evidence that aligns with what our Lord said in John 5 about both the resurrection of the just AND the unjust happening at the same time of the sound of His voice. No one will be in bodies of corruption like we have today after His coming, including the unjust (wicked). Isaiah 25 is a major Bible witness to that.

John 5
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

This does not at all say that all flesh and blood humans get resurrection bodies at His coming. First, it is ONLY speaking of the dead, people in the grave. And certainly there WILL be an hour that the dead in Christ will hear His voice; and an hour where the righteous Old Testament saints in the grave hear His voice, and an hour where the unrighteous hear His voice. But all the same hour? Not according to John.

Matt 25
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

There is nothing here to give us ANY indication that these people have resurrected bodies. They are people that have survived the 70th week. They are still live and breathing human beings.

Rev 22
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Truthfully, I am not sure why Veteran chose any of these verses; they are only a smoke screen.

NO ONE on this forum is denying that the judgement of the nations will take place. But it will be live humans that have survived the 70th week, NOT anyone resurrected. It is the "filter" to decide WHO will enter the Millennial kingdom. There will be millions alive after the 70th week, living in many nations. What will happen to them? God decides at this judgement, based on how they treated the Jews (His brethren) during those days of great tribulation. In other words, DID THEY HAVE COMPASSION? Indeed, instead of a resurrection, the goats are sent straight to hell. What is MOST INTERESTING, this has NOTHING TO DO WITH John 5:28-29. Those verses are speaking of the DEAD. "The nations" are NOT DEAD. Neither does Veteran have any other scripture to show us that ALL LIVE HUMANS are given resurrection bodies at the time of His coming. So - he has given us smoke screen verses.

But what does the scriptures really tell us?

Rev. 19 tells of of the marriage supper, where John writes, "for the marriage of the Lamb is come." Of course many on this forum want to DENY that the wedding actually "comes" at this time. They want to push it off until after Jesus arrives back on the earth. It is the ONLY WAY their faulty theories can have the church be at the wedding. But, the truth is, John is telling us that BEFORE Jesus gets on the white horse, He attends His own wedding. Of course, if the wedding happens in heaven, BEFORE Jesus descends on the white horse, then the CHURCH must already be in heaven FOR THE WEDDING. And of course, the church IS THERE and has been there for the entire 70th week, because the entire week is God's wrath, and we ESCAPE his wrath; we have no appointment. John SHOWS the church in heaven, as the great crowd too large to number, in Rev. 7.

After the battle of Armageddon as shown at the end of REv. 19, John saw the devil get bound and locked into the bottomless pit. He will be there for 1000 years.

Then John saw the church on earth, as judges on thrones. He saw those that were beheaded by the Beast. These two groups lived and reigned with Christ for 1000 years.

Readers: please read carefully what John writes next, and see if it fits Veteran's statements above:

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

Could it be any plainer? This is so clear, a beginning reader would get it the FIRST TIME: all the dead do NOT get resurrected at the same time.

Now for an interesting look at the human equation:

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

You see? Once again Satan draws millions to Jerusalem to fight God. Again, there is NOT ONE HINT that these are anything else than flesh and blood humans. They are deceived just as millions are today; just as the millions that will soon head for Jersualem for the battle of Armageddon.

I can't go along with Veteran's theories, as they simply don't fit scripture.

Coop

 

[veteran]

Here is what you said, and I answered:

Veteran wrote:

In Matt.25, our Lord Jesus explained that at His coming, His angels are going to gather all nations before His Throne in judgment, and then He will separate His sheep from the goats. There are too many on this Forum denying that event, for it is hard Scripture evidence that aligns with what our Lord said in John 5 about both the resurrection of the just AND the unjust happening at the same time of the sound of His voice. No one will be in bodies of corruption like we have today after His coming, including the unjust (wicked). Isaiah 25 is a major Bible witness to that.

John 5
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

This does not at all say that all flesh and blood humans get resurrection bodies at His coming. First, it is ONLY speaking of the dead, people in the grave. And certainly there WILL be an hour that the dead in Christ will hear His voice; and an hour where the righteous Old Testament saints in the grave hear His voice, and an hour where the unrighteous hear His voice. But all the same hour? Not according to John.

I'm trying real hard to not insult your intelligence. But when our Lord Jesus says those in the graves will come forth at the sound of His voice unto either one resurrection type or the other, that IS about the dead being raised to resurrection bodies at His coming, both the just and the unjust; the "resurrection of life" for those in Christ, and the "resurrection of damnation" for the wicked. It's impossible to interpret those John 5:28-29 verses to be resurrections at different intervals of time.

Matt 25
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

There is nothing here to give us ANY indication that these people have resurrected bodies. They are people that have survived the 70th week. They are still live and breathing human beings.

Are you serious? Sounds like you don't really believe in the resurrection our Lord Jesus and His Apostles taught. Apostle Paul covered it in great detail in 1 Corinthians 15, and referred to it many times in his Epistles. Do you ever wonder where in the Old Testament those of Israel who believed it read it from? But the blind Sadduccees didn't believe in the resurrection at all. Sounds like you align with them.

 

[lecoop]

Here is what you said, and I answered:

Veteran wrote:

In Matt.25, our Lord Jesus explained that at His coming, His angels are going to gather all nations before His Throne in judgment, and then He will separate His sheep from the goats. There are too many on this Forum denying that event, for it is hard Scripture evidence that aligns with what our Lord said in John 5 about both the resurrection of the just AND the unjust happening at the same time of the sound of His voice. No one will be in bodies of corruption like we have today after His coming, including the unjust (wicked). Isaiah 25 is a major Bible witness to that.

John 5
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

This does not at all say that all flesh and blood humans get resurrection bodies at His coming. First, it is ONLY speaking of the dead, people in the grave. And certainly there WILL be an hour that the dead in Christ will hear His voice; and an hour where the righteous Old Testament saints in the grave hear His voice, and an hour where the unrighteous hear His voice. But all the same hour? Not according to John.

I'm trying real hard to not insult your intelligence. But when our Lord Jesus says those in the graves will come forth at the sound of His voice unto either one resurrection type or the other, that IS about the dead being raised to resurrection bodies at His coming, both the just and the unjust; the "resurrection of life" for those in Christ, and the "resurrection of damnation" for the wicked. It's impossible to interpret those John 5:28-29 verses to be resurrections at different intervals of time.

Veteran, I KNOW you are smart enough to know, no scripture is of any private interpretation. Every verse of scripture MUST fit with every OTHER verse. Since Revelation, the MOST COMPLETE of any of our end times scriptures, tells us VERY PLAINLY that the ugly dead - the unrighteous dead, are not raised until AFTER the 1000 years, then this verse MUST NOT say what you THINK it is saying. And, if fact, it is not.

John Wesley
Marvel not at this: for the time is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Mace
let not this surprize you: for the time is coming, when all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and they that have done good,

Lamsa
Do not wonder at this; for the time is coming, when all those who are in the graves will hear his voice,

Thayers

Greek Hora KJV = AV — hour 89, time 11, season 3, misc 5
1) a certain definite time or season fixed by natural law and returning with the revolving year
2) the daytime (bounded by the rising and setting of the sun), a day
3) a twelfth part of the day-time, an hour, (the twelve hours of the day are reckoned from the rising to the setting of the sun)
4) any definite time, point of time, moment

The fact is, this verse does not say that it is the SAME hour for both. And indeed it cannot be the same hour or time for both, else God has become a liar. Because the same Holy Spirit had John write:

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

This verse could not be any clearer: John is separating the two resurrections: "first resurrection" and "second" [resurrection unto] death. Here the resurrection is understood, so John only calls it "second death" because it is a resurrection of the damned to eternal damnation. John writes:

6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

This resurrection cannot be compared to Lazarus, since he died again; this is a raising to life with a resurrection body that will never die; a body similar to angels. Therefore, Jesus was the first part of the "first resurrection." (Remember he was the "firstfruits?" "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. [1 Cor 15:20]) The rapture will be the second phase of the "first resurrection." The rapture of the 144,000 will be the third phase of the "first resurrection." Of course, the two witnesses will be another phase of the "first resurrection." Therefore to force John 5:28 to say that all dead are raised in the same hour, is to deny the rest of scripture.

Matt 25
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

There is nothing here to give us ANY indication that these people have resurrected bodies. They are people that have survived the 70th week. They are still live and breathing human beings.

Are you serious? Sounds like you don't really believe in the resurrection our Lord Jesus and His Apostles taught. Apostle Paul covered it in great detail in 1 Corinthians 15, and referred to it many times in his Epistles. Do you ever wonder where in the Old Testament those of Israel who believed it read it from? But the blind Sadduccees didn't believe in the resurrection at all. Sounds like you align with them.

Well, if you find a scriptures that tells us plainly that all humans get changed into resurrection bodies at His coming, I will believe. But the TRUTH is, all humans DON'T. These people are NATURAL people that will - for the sheep - repopulate the earth during the 1000 years. Surely you know that prophecies in the Old Testament tell of babies being born during the Millennium?

Veteran, why is it you want to KILL ALL HUMANs left on the earth after the 70th week? 1 Cor. 15 is ONLY speaking of the resurrection of DEAD people. Sorry, but God does not tell us that all humans die. Wake up to this reality, Veteran: after the destruction of "Babylon," there will still be millions left alive on planet earth. You will never never never find a scripture that denys this. it is LIVE people that face the judgment of the nations. You have a FALSE DOCTRINE and worse yet, you are TEACHING it. Do you realize, NO ONE VERSE you have given speaks of LIVE people; they all speak ONLY of those in the grave.

Coop

 

[veteran]

Well, if you find a scriptures that tells us plainly that all humans get changed into resurrection bodies at His coming, I will believe... Coop

No you won't, because you keep skirting around the John 5:28-29 example as if it does not exist.

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
(KJV)

ALL that are in the graves. Let's see, just who does "all" refer to? Everyone that died and was buried, both the just and the unjust. WHEN are they raised? In a certain "hour" when they hear His voice.

Since when does that "hour" mean resurrections before Christ's coming, or after Christ's coming at the end of the thousand years? The "dead" of Rev.20:5 are resurrected at Christ's coming also. It's their souls that will still be spiritually dead, still mortal, and subject to the "second death". Paul explained that in 1 Cor.15. The second death is the death of one's spirit and soul in the lake of fire, not death of the flesh again. Once Christ comes and the resurrection happens, flesh death will be over as we know it.

What you're busy denying is the resurrection at Christ's coming on the "last trump", on the "trump of God". That's what that "hour" John 5:28 is referring to. We already know how you try to move that last 7th trumpet to middle of the tribulation, which is different than what Scripture directly reveals, so it's no surprise you don't understand the resurrection at Christ's coming on that 7th trumpet.

 

[lecoop]

No you won't, because you keep skirting around the John 5:28-29 example as if it does not exist.

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
(KJV)

ALL that are in the graves. Let's see, just who does "all" refer to? Everyone that died and was buried, both the just and the unjust. WHEN are they raised? In a certain "hour" when they hear His voice.

Since when does that "hour" mean resurrections before Christ's coming, or after Christ's coming at the end of the thousand years? The "dead" of Rev.20:5 are resurrected at Christ's coming also. It's their souls that will still be spiritually dead, still mortal, and subject to the "second death". Paul explained that in 1 Cor.15. The second death is the death of one's spirit and soul in the lake of fire, not death of the flesh again. Once Christ comes and the resurrection happens, flesh death will be over as we know it.

What you're busy denying is the resurrection at Christ's coming on the "last trump", on the "trump of God". That's what that "hour" John 5:28 is referring to. We already know how you try to move that last 7th trumpet to middle of the tribulation, which is different than what Scripture directly reveals, so it's no surprise you don't understand the resurrection at Christ's coming on that 7th trumpet.

You are still talking of DEAD people. What of the millions that are still alive at His coming? Did you forget those? By the way, it is you who have moved the 7th trumpet all the way to chapter 19, when Christ really returns to earth. I leave it in chapter 11, which is a MIDPOINT chapter. OF course John 5:28 & 29 exists. But you want it to say what it does not say.

It seems you are almost the most confused man I have ever read after. Do you not understand "resurrection" at all? Just who are those in Rev. 20:5 referring to? They are the UNRIGHTEOUS. Let's suppose it is 3 to 6 months after Jesus has returned to earth, and the judgement of the nations has ended. The "first resurrection" is complete: all the graves of the righteous, Old Testament and New Testament, have been opened and the bodies resurrected, joined with the spirit and soul, and they are in the Millennial reign of Christ.

But John writes that the unrighteous will NOT BE RESURRECTED until after the 1000 years. OF COURSE he is speaking of the bodies coming out of the graves, for he compares it to the first resurrection: "this is the first resurrection." It CANNOT MEAN ANYTHING ELSE BUT dead flesh bodies being resurrected from the graves. Where on earth did you come up with such false doctrines? That means very clearly that their bodies will remain IN THE GRAVE for the 1000 years. Twist and morph all you want, but you and your theories will not change this verse: the unrighteous dead will REMAIN in the grave. But where have their spirits and souls been ever since they died? Of course, in hell. That is why John writes: "death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them." But ONLY their spirit's and soul's were in hell. Their body was in the grave UNTIL after the 1000 years.

It's their souls that will still be spiritually dead, still mortal, and subject to the "second death"

This is probably the silliest thing you have ever written - although that is a hard call. For anyone that dies without Christ, and ends up in hell, there is no recourse and no escape. They are spiritually dead and IN HELL, in flames, in torment. And Rev. 20:5 tells us that this is exactly where they will stay UNTIL the 1000 years are finished: their bodies will stay in the grave, and their spirits and souls will remain in hell. WHERE does John tell us that hell gives up its dead? NOT UNTIL THE 1000 YEARS ARE OVER. What do you imagine? They are all zombies - resurrected bodies without spirits and souls - wondering the earth? Your theories are so far from the truth.

By the way, you STILL have not addressed those that are alive after the 70th week.

Coop

 

[guysmith]

At some point the 144K are marked with "the seal of God" on their foreheads.

Revelation 7
1After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3"Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God." 4Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

This seal is not the seal that every Christian receives at acceptance, but rather, it is a special mark given exclusively to the 144K to protect them from the fifth trump plague.

Revelation 9
1The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss. 2When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss. 3And out of the smoke locusts came down upon the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. 4They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

The 144K are the only male Christians "redeemed from the earth."

Revelation 14
1Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. 2And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.

The 144K are the survivors, and Mount Zion is the location.

Joel 2:32
32 And everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the LORD has said, among the survivors whom the LORD calls.

Guy

 

[veteran]

At some point the 144K are marked with "the seal of God" on their foreheads.

Revelation 7
1After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3"Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God." 4Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

This seal is not the seal that every Christian receives at acceptance, but rather, it is a special mark given exclusively to the 144K to protect them from the fifth trump plague.

Revelation 9
1The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss. 2When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss. 3And out of the smoke locusts came down upon the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. 4They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

The 144K are the only male Christians "redeemed from the earth."

Revelation 14
1Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. 2And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.

The 144K are the survivors, and Mount Zion is the location.

Joel 2:32
32 And everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the LORD has said, among the survivors whom the LORD calls.

Guy

It's OK to quote Bible verses pulled from a chapter's Message IF... they are kept in Biblical context with the rest of the verses in their chapter. The 144,000 and the great multitude of Rev.7:9 forward go through the tribulation, and are not deceived, refusing the mark of the beast. That's what that sealing is for, and is by The Holy Spirit for those who listen to God in His Word and not to men. And the "mount Sion" of Rev.14 is on earth where Jerusalem is, which is where Christ returns to reign from and where His servants are gathered to Him at per Zech.14. They're His elect because they listen to and follow Him instead of this world.

It's those sealed with God's seal who will be persecuted during the tribulation, simply because of His sealing away from the coming deception. The locust army of Rev.9 is told to not hurt any green thing nor tree. They are also told they can't kill anyone that is NOT sealed with God's seal, but only sting them for five months. That means Christ's servants that have God's seal can be killed during the coming tribulation, so they're not survivors in the physical respect, but survivors in the resurrection of life unto Christ when He comes. And until Christ Jesus returns on the 7th trumpet, those killed for Him are awaiting the resurrection to return with Him. The rewards to Christ's servants and their reign with Him doesn't begin until Christ comes to end this present world.

 

[lecoop]

It's OK to quote Bible verses pulled from a chapter's Message IF... they are kept in Biblical context with the rest of the verses in their chapter. The 144,000 and the great multitude of Rev.7:9 forward go through the tribulation, and are not deceived, refusing the mark of the beast. That's what that sealing is for, and is by The Holy Spirit for those who listen to God in His Word and not to men. And the "mount Sion" of Rev.14 is on earth where Jerusalem is, which is where Christ returns to reign from and where His servants are gathered to Him at per Zech.14. They're His elect because they listen to and follow Him instead of this world.

Can we please follow what the bible really says, instead of man's ideas and theories?

WHERE are those in the great multitude of Rev 7:9?

9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

This great multitude, too large to number, is in heaven, around the throne. They have just been raptured, and are certainly NOT going to go through the Beast's "then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be..." They are raptured long before the Beast is revealed at the abomination. If they had come out of this time, "such as not since the beginning of the world to this time," John would have written this in chapter 13. But no, this is written in chapter 7, and written just after the sealing of the 144,000. Why? Why did John write it here? Because they are seen in heaven at this same time. In other words, when the sealing of the 144,000 is going on, this large crowd, too large to number, is singing praises around the throne in heaven. WHEN is the sealing done? Of course, BEFORE even the first trumpet is sounded. Therefore, this group is in heaven BEFORE any trumpet is sounded. Sorry, but this group NEVER SEE the beast. Neither do the 144,000 ever see the beast. They are raptured right at the time of the abomination. Neither does the sealing have ANYTHING to do with the mark of the beast. The 144,000 are raptured to heaven BEFORE the mark is set up.

Now, let's look at WHERE Mount Sion is, in Rev. 14.

Rev 14
1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Please note, this sealing is NOT the Holy Spirit in the heart as a born again Christian: no, this is a special sealing, for protection during the trumpet judgements. (Which, by the way, are BEFORE the abomination.) Note also, they are standing on "Mount Sion." Now let's see WHERE that is.

3And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Here we see that they are "redeemed FROM the earth." One cannot be redeemed FROM the earth, and still be ON the earth.

4These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Notice that they "follow the Lamb, wherever he goes." At this time, the Lamb is IN HEAVEN. Again we see that they are "redeemed from among man," so they cannot be with man.

5And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

Finally, we see that they are before the throne of God. That means THEY ARE IN HEAVEN. Therefore, there MUST BE a Mount Sion in heaven.

It's those sealed with God's seal who will be persecuted during the tribulation, simply because of His sealing away from the coming deception.

This is myth. The sealing is for protection. And specifically during the trumpet judgments. There is simply NOT ONE VERSE that tells us this sealing has anything to do with deception.

The locust army of Rev.9 is told to not hurt any green thing nor tree. They are also told they can't kill anyone that is NOT sealed with God's seal, but only sting them for five months.

This too is a myth, for it is half-truth. The locost army is not sent to kill at all but to sting and torture by their sting. But they CANNOT sting those with the seal of God. Can we just go by what is written, instead of theories? NO ONE is going to die!


4And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

That means Christ's servants that have God's seal can be killed during the coming tribulation, so they're not survivors in the physical respect, but survivors in the resurrection of life unto Christ when He comes. And until Christ Jesus returns on the 7th trumpet, those killed for Him are awaiting the resurrection to return with Him. The rewards to Christ's servants and their reign with Him doesn't begin until Christ comes to end this present world.

It means NOTHING OF THE SORT. Those words were ONLY for the 5th trumpet and the little beasties that sting like scorpions. Of course people will be killed during "those days" of "great tribulation" AFTER the abomination. But it will be people that refuse the mark of the beast. Veteran seems to hint that the 144,000 will be killed. That is simply a myth too: they are raptured to heaven, at or very near the abomination, and will never see the Beast. Next, Christ returns AFTER the 7th vial, not at the 7th trumpet that marks the midpoint of the week.

Coop

 

[guysmith]

Veteran.

You stated:The 144,000 and the great multitude of Rev.7:9 forward go through the tribulation, and are not deceived, refusing the mark of the beast. That's what that sealing is for, and is by The Holy Spirit for those who listen to God in His Word and not to men. And the "mount Sion" of Rev.14 is on earth where Jerusalem is, which is where Christ returns to reign from and where His servants are gathered to Him at per Zech.14. They're His elect because they listen to and follow Him instead of this world.

It's those sealed with God's seal who will be persecuted during the tribulation, simply because of His sealing away from the coming deception. The locust army of Rev.9 is told to not hurt any green thing nor tree. They are also told they can't kill anyone that is NOT sealed with God's seal, but only sting them for five months. That means Christ's servants that have God's seal can be killed during the coming tribulation, so they're not survivors in the physical respect, but survivors in the resurrection of life unto Christ when He comes. And until Christ Jesus returns on the 7th trumpet, those killed for Him are awaiting the resurrection to return with Him. The rewards to Christ's servants and their reign with Him doesn't begin until Christ comes to end this present world.

My response: I pretty much agree with what you have stated. I believe what you have missed is that there are going to be Christians alive at Christ's advent. I believe that the scriptures i have quoted has clarified that the 144K are those survivors, exclusively.


Guy

 

[veteran]

Veteran.

You stated:The 144,000 and the great multitude of Rev.7:9 forward go through the tribulation, and are not deceived, refusing the mark of the beast. That's what that sealing is for, and is by The Holy Spirit for those who listen to God in His Word and not to men. And the "mount Sion" of Rev.14 is on earth where Jerusalem is, which is where Christ returns to reign from and where His servants are gathered to Him at per Zech.14. They're His elect because they listen to and follow Him instead of this world.

It's those sealed with God's seal who will be persecuted during the tribulation, simply because of His sealing away from the coming deception. The locust army of Rev.9 is told to not hurt any green thing nor tree. They are also told they can't kill anyone that is NOT sealed with God's seal, but only sting them for five months. That means Christ's servants that have God's seal can be killed during the coming tribulation, so they're not survivors in the physical respect, but survivors in the resurrection of life unto Christ when He comes. And until Christ Jesus returns on the 7th trumpet, those killed for Him are awaiting the resurrection to return with Him. The rewards to Christ's servants and their reign with Him doesn't begin until Christ comes to end this present world.

My response: I pretty much agree with what you have stated. I believe what you have missed is that there are going to be Christians alive at Christ's advent. I believe that the scriptures i have quoted has clarified that the 144K are those survivors, exclusively.


Guy

If you mean survivors in the sense that only those sealed with God's seal will remain faithful in waiting for Christ's return at the end of the tribulation by refusing to bow in worship to the false messiah, then I wholeheartedly agree.

 

[guysmith]

Hello veteran,

You stated: If you mean survivors in the sense that only those sealed with God's seal will remain faithful in waiting for Christ's return at the end of the tribulation by refusing to bow in worship to the false messiah, then I wholeheartedly agree.

My response: Yes, however, from the your response I get the feeling that you believe that those with this seal is more than 144K and these survivors will be found worldwide. Do I understand your position?

Guy

 

[veteran]

Hello veteran,

You stated: If you mean survivors in the sense that only those sealed with God's seal will remain faithful in waiting for Christ's return at the end of the tribulation by refusing to bow in worship to the false messiah, then I wholeheartedly agree.

My response: Yes, however, from the your response I get the feeling that you believe that those with this seal is more than 144K and these survivors will be found worldwide. Do I understand your position?

Guy

Yes and... no. Nor do I grasp how you're using the word 'survivors' from a Biblical viewpoint.

I believe the 144,000 of Rev.7:1-8 is a definite number about Israelites. But the next group mentioned in Rev.7:9 forward is an undetermined number, and represents believers from all nations all over the world. Both together as one make up Christ's Body, His Church. The subject of Rev.7 is about the sealing of God's servants away from deception to go through the tribulation. Remember the five months stinging of Revelation 9?

Rev 7:9-10
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God Which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
(KJV)

Rev 7:13-15
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, "What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?"
14 And I said unto him, "Sir, thou knowest." And he said to me, "These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple: and He that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them."
(KJV)

In Rev.14, the specific group of 144,000 is mentioned singing a new song before the throne. And in Rev.15, an ungiven number of a group that had gotten the victory over the beast, his mark, and his image, are standing on a sea of glass singing the song of Moses and the song of The Lamb.

 

[guysmith]

veteran,

You stated: Yes and... no. Nor do I grasp how you're using the word 'survivors' from a Biblical viewpoint.

My response: I believe that there will Christians which will not taste physical death and be alive at Christ's advent. This is the definition of 'survivors' to me. What does the word 'survivors' mean to you?

You stated: I believe the 144,000 of Rev.7:1-8 is a definite number about Israelites. But the next group mentioned in Rev.7:9 forward is an undetermined number, and represents believers from all nations all over the world.

My response: There will be a great multitude of Christians which are going to be martyred during the GT. They will gain victory over Satan in their deaths and richly rewarded in the resurrection, but they will not be 'survivors' as defined above. Couldn't Rev.7:9 be a description of those Christians martyred during the GT?

Guy

 

[lecoop]

veteran,

You stated: Yes and... no. Nor do I grasp how you're using the word 'survivors' from a Biblical viewpoint.

My response: I believe that there will Christians which will not taste physical death and be alive at Christ's advent. This is the definition of 'survivors' to me. What does the word 'survivors' mean to you?

You stated: I believe the 144,000 of Rev.7:1-8 is a definite number about Israelites. But the next group mentioned in Rev.7:9 forward is an undetermined number, and represents believers from all nations all over the world.

My response: There will be a great multitude of Christians which are going to be martyred during the GT. They will gain victory over Satan in their deaths but richly rewarded in the resurrection, but they will not be 'survivors' as defined above. Couldn't Rev.7:9 be a description of those Christians martyred during the GT?

Guy

The group in 7:9 are not martyrs. They are the raptured church. John sees them in heaven before the 70th week even begins. Of course, God will seal the 144,000 for protection, BEFORE the time they will NEED protection (i.e. 70th week and day of the Lord). That only makes sense, and it is exactly the order God shows it to John.
The two words together, "great tribulation" do not always mean those days following the abomination. They can refer to any time where people are being killed for their testimony, or any time God chooses to put people into a furnace of GT (See Rev. 2:22). Can "tribulation" be any greater than being put to death? One cannot be put to death over and over. John was in "the tribulation" in 95 AD when he wrote: See Rev 1:9 in any Greek text). God is telling us in 7:9 that "the tribulation" of the church age will get worse and worse as we approach the time of the rapture. Today people are being killed for their testimony in perhaps half of the world. It will only get worse until it is happening around the world.

Rev 14
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

REv 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

19:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


I am quite sure that these are martyrs of the Beast. How else would one get into heaven during this time where God has said that the Beast will overcome the saints? All three of these scriptures are speaking of the same people; those that live through part of those days of great tribulation following the abomination, but are captured by the beast and put to death; and are seen in heaven on the sea of glass before the throne.

The 144,000 of chapter 14 are NOT in this group, because they were raptured to heaven at the midpoint of the week. They won't even see the beast - unless they are raptured just AFTER the abomination.

Coop

 

[veteran]

My response: I believe that there will Christians which will not taste physical death and be alive at Christ's advent. This is the definition of 'survivors' to me. What does the word 'survivors' mean to you?

Yes, that's what I see also. That's what Paul was talking about in 1 Thess.4 with those in Christ who "remain" until the of gathering at His return on the 7th trumpet. The saints who remain on earth will be "changed" to the resurrection body, while the asleep saints will be raised and return with Jesus.

My response: There will be a great multitude of Christians which are going to be martyred during the GT. They will gain victory over Satan in their deaths and richly rewarded in the resurrection, but they will not be 'survivors' as defined above. Couldn't Rev.7:9 be a description of those Christians martyred during the GT?

Guy

Yes, some, concerning your last statement. But Rev.7:9 forward is not specific that they are killed. I do not believe every Christian who makes a stand for Christ through the tribulation will be martyred. Like Paul taught, there will be some saints still alive on earth at Christ's coming. And that means saints that had been sealed with God's seal like the 144,000 are.

 

[guysmith]

veteran,

According to the scriptures, the 144K (Israeli Christians) are going to be fed and protected by God for the duration of the GT. What are the survival tactics of this side group of Christians, as you see it. My problem is how would this group provide food and even pay their property taxes without the mark of the beast?

According to Rev 7, the 144K are the only ones which receive the "seal of God in their foreheads." In Rev 9 the fifth trumpet plague is poured out upon all mankind, except the 144K which have this special seal. How do you see this side group of Christians fairing this plague?

Guy

 

[veteran]

veteran,

According to the scriptures, the 144K (Israeli Christians) are going to be fed and protected by God for the duration of the GT. What are the survival tactics of this side group of Christians, as you see it. My problem is how would this group provide food and even pay their property taxes without the mark of the beast?

According to Rev 7, the 144K are the only ones which receive the "seal of God in their foreheads." In Rev 9 the fifth trumpet plague is poured out upon all mankind, except the 144K which have this special seal. How do you see this side group of Christians fairing this plague?

Guy

Like I was saying, the group of Rev.15:2-4 are shown with Christ too, singing the song of Moses, and the song of The Lamb (Christ). That group isn't pointing specifically to the 144,000 like Rev.14:1-5 does. Yet both groups are shown harping on harps in Christ's Salvation. Not good to leave those of Rev.7:9 forward out of the Message of God's sealing His elect for the tribulation. Ezekiel 9 is a blueprint for that sealing. The Message of sealing given in Rev.7 must be included with those Rev.14 & 15 Messages, and with the Rev.9 example.

Concerning what survival tactics those sealed will have to resort to, use the example of Christians living under Communist rule as an example. Communism is a totalitarian type society, it's just that today it's better known to the word as Socialism.

 

[lecoop]

HOw much better to just go with what is written, instead of guessing, or reading with preconceived glasses. Guysmith, At least you recognize the 144,000 as Jews or Hebrews. However, you are missing one point about them; they are FIRSTfruits, meaning, they are going to get to heaven AHEAD of their fellow Hebrews. They are sealed for their protection against the trumpet judgements, which are in the FIRST HALF of the 70th week. They are then raptured to heaven as FIRSTfruits. When are they raptured? Either right at the midpoint abomination, or VERY SOON after it. In other words, they WON'T SEE those days of great tribulation. John saw them in heaven, at the same time he saw the angels warning about NOT taking the mark. Therefore, they are going to be in heaven before the mark is set up. They will need no "survival tactics."

However, the rest of the Jews/Hebrews, that is, those that refuse the mark, will be put to death. I suspect that very few of them will survive. Very few Christians that turn to God after the rapture of the church will survive. That is the very meaning of "prevailing against" the saints.

Coop

 

[guysmith]

Hello veteran,

You stated: Concerning what survival tactics those sealed will have to resort to, use the example of Christians living under Communist rule as an example.

My response: I see the coming GT as a time which will be worst for Christians than it was for the Jews in Nazi Germany. Yes, there were survivors far a few between. Do you think these Jewish survivors would have escaped detection if the Nazis had the technology our governments now have at their finger tips?

Guy