The Character of the Cross Work of Christ

[dadof10]

If you have been reading my posts carefully you would know that I have been asserting that faith (entailing surrender to the Holy Spirit) is fully sufficient to ensure a favourable outcome of the coming judgement even if the "requirements" are not clearly set forth.

In other words, the Christian need not worry about the "standard" - all they need to do is to remain in faith, and the Spirit will do the rest.

Absolutely. Merely ASKING the question shows a complete lack of understanding of the POINT of Romans - an adherence to the entire point Paul is attempting to diffuse - that works of the law (or any other works to merely appease God) do not save. Listing "works that save" completely undermines Paul's point of an inner heart and conversion.

Regards

...Or to put it another way, God wants all of us. Not only our faith or only our works. He wants our entire Self, every thought and action. I love CS Lewis and am reminded of his famous Dentist, who ,as a young boy, Lewis was afraid to go to. It's not that the Dentist wouldn't relieve the boy's pain, but that He would start "rooting around" in there finding all kinds of other thing that needed fixed. Lewis uses this as an analogy for God. The Dentist wanted to fix EVERYTHING.

We are now under the "law of Love". Instead of slaves we are now children. Instead of obligation, love.

 

[francisdesales]

Absolutely. Merely ASKING the question shows a complete lack of understanding of the POINT of Romans - an adherence to the entire point Paul is attempting to diffuse - that works of the law (or any other works to merely appease God) do not save. Listing "works that save" completely undermines Paul's point of an inner heart and conversion.

Regards

...Or to put it another way, God wants all of us. Not only our faith or only our works. He wants our entire Self, every thought and action. I love CS Lewis and am reminded of his famous Dentist, who ,as a young boy, Lewis was afraid to go to. It's not that the Dentist wouldn't relieve the boy's pain, but that He would start "rooting around" in there finding all kinds of other thing that needed fixed. Lewis uses this as an analogy for God. The Dentist wanted to fix EVERYTHING.

We are now under the "law of Love". Instead of slaves we are now children. Instead of obligation, love.

Leave it to a "dad of ten" to know about love!

Joe

 

[Mysteryman]

Translators as well as text copiers, were never to add nor take away from what came before they got their paws on it. However, because of the sin nature of mankind, they continually altered the written Word of God.

Do you have any evidence at all to support this extraordinary claim?

Do you not understand how thinking this way enables anyone to dismiss any text they do not like as "altered"?

Hi Drew

I fully understand what you are saying. But God wrote his epistle on our hearts and not with ink. If those who only believe what they can read with their physical eyes. They then fall prey to the fact that man who copied the texts over and over, again and again ; or the translators, who did the translations, were in and of themselves infallible. And I am sure, even you Drew , are not that gullible.

Just doing a comparison of the different translations, would/should be evidence enough to see how the different translations move whole words within a verse, just to change the meaning of a verse. They also add words, and they put punctuation marks after certain words, just to make a verse imply something, that the original thought becomes altered.

You keep wanting proof Drew. Why don't you do your own study, in order that the proof becomes evident to you. Pick up a NIV and compare it to a KJV. Most people will read the NIV when it suits their purpose . While others will read the KJV , in like manner, to suit their purpose. < Use Romans 9:5 as an example (litmus test).. What I do know, is that the translations can not agree exactly. So how can anyone just trust their paticular translation and claim that their paticular translation holds the truth and all other translations are faulty ? This is not putting your faith in God ! It is putting your paticular faith in a paticular translation.

Translators are not suppose to translate the word "house", for instance, into the word "horse". They are suppose to translate from one language into another language without any bias, or interpretation on their part. But that was not the case ! Their paticular bias and influences always played a role. So much so, that they would change the word "man" into the word "husband" just to make scripture say what they wanted it to say. The greek word "aner" is the word in question here. As it is true, that this greek word can be translated either "man" or "husband". It was translated "husband" 50 times and it was translated "man" 156 times. In Matthew 1:16 is the verse I am talking about.

There are two Joseph's in the gospels. One is the father of Mary, the mother of Jesus Christ, and the other Joseph is the husband of Mary, the mother of Jesus Christ. Both names being the same, made it very easy for either a mistake, or an intentional change of the scriptures. Matthew 1:16 should be translated "man" , not "husband". Because it is talking about "generations" and not "geneologies". Further more, there needs to be 42 generations. If the word is left as "husband" , then there are only 41 generations and not 42. If the word "aner" is translated - "Man" of Mary, and not husband. The word "Man" here refers to her father, and not her husband. Then and only then do you get 42 generations !!

This alone has caused no end of confusion throughout the history of the last 400 + years.

The translators were so transparent in their pernicious ways, that they even put the word "interpreted" in Matthew 1:23. Which by the way, is not something that they were suppose to do ! It was not their buisness to interpret. In fact, they even got the interpretation wrong here in this verse. It is suppose to be interpreted - "God with him", not - "God with us". A quick double check of the OT will prove this to be the case. Yet, they were bold enough to even put their own interpretation right in front of our eyes. And most people just ignore it as being a part of the translation. You can only imagine the blindness of people who never see this !

The Word of God is of no private interpretation. Yet, men open their bibles and do exactly just that. Give their private interpretations, just like the translators did. Whole man made doctrines have been made upon the private interpretations of the translators. Based soley upon the ignorance of those who trust their translations to the hilt.

Bless

 

[glorydaz]

Good deeds are merely the evidence whereby we can know you were saved.
They are the natural outcome of being saved....

Where does Scripture teach this?

Salvation is a gift...we are His workmanship...created unto good works which God has before ordained that we should walk in them.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Those who have the indwelling Holy Spirit will be known by their fruits.

Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

It has been preordained...predestined... that believers will be conformed into the image of Christ.

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

 

[glorydaz]

I don't have to "explain away" Romans 2:6-7, it fits in perfectly with the rest of Romans. Paul is talking about the state of mankind from the beginning.

LOL!!!

Romans is not about the "state of mankind", but about the supposed superiority of the Jews over the Gentiles and that God had always justified by faith, not by works of the Mosaic Law. The evidence is quite clear, it is the Spirit of God that justifies and sanctifies, not our own deeds without the Spirit. National election is not for the sake of pride over others. Election to the Church does not guarantee individual salvation to the Kingdom, as evil Jews or Christians could be cut off from the root.

Rom.2:1Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

Laugh if it helps you to feel superior, Joe, but Paul is speaking about mankind....he even breaks it up into Jews and Gentiles. All men have the law of God written on their consciences...even the Gentiles, which is the point Paul is making. All men sin and come short...those that have no written law and those who do have a written law. Sin must be dealt with, and the only way it can be dealt with is by the grace of God. I'm not sure where you get this "election to the Church" idea...believers are the church for we are the body of Christ, and being elect means one is born of the Spirit. Any "believer" who "changes his mind" never had his heart circumcised by Almighty God to begin with.

 

[glorydaz]

If you have been reading my posts carefully you would know that I have been asserting that faith (entailing surrender to the Holy Spirit) is fully sufficient to ensure a favourable outcome of the coming judgement even if the "requirements" are not clearly set forth.

In other words, the Christian need not worry about the "standard" - all they need to do is to remain in faith, and the Spirit will do the rest.

Absolutely. Merely ASKING the question shows a complete lack of understanding of the POINT of Romans - an adherence to the entire point Paul is attempting to diffuse - that works of the law (or any other works to merely appease God) do not save. Listing "works that save" completely undermines Paul's point of an inner heart and conversion.

Regards

Listing "works that save" would be pretty important to those who believe they need to "do something" in order to be saved. If it's more than believing on the Lord Jesus Christ, there must be a list else man could never have any assurance of salvation. Are you two claiming that man is kept in the dark concerning his fate until the Lord returns? That man must strive until he dies to enter into the kingdom? There sure are a lot of verses that would have to be ignored in order for that to be true. Certainly Paul could not have said with such certainty that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, especially since he considered himself the greatest sinner. ;)

 

[glorydaz]

If you do not like the general idea, perhaps you should take it up with the originator - Paul.

My point is that the good works that will acquit the believer on the last day are generated by the Spirit, not fundamentally by moral self-effort. Again, this not my idea - I shamelessly copied it from the guy who wrote these words:

Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,...

Your model cannot accomodate the clear sense of this text. And so you deform the meaning into something the context, not to mention the very rules of language, do not allow you to do.

I do not intend to suggest that persisting in faith is easy. But Paul says what he says - in some mysterious way, the Spirit is at work in the lives who truthfully profess "Jesus is Lord" to conform them into the image of the Son.

Oooops - I admit I also stole that idea from Paul too.

There is a sense in which I am admittedly less "creative" theologically than you - I simply take everything Paul writes as inspired scripture and parrot it back to the readers.

You, of course, are far more "creative" in your reading.

Paul is quite clear. Of course we have an obligation...a duty... to live according to the Spirit because we are in Christ and the Holy Spirit has given us LIFE. Those who live according to the sinful nature are natural men who have not the Spirit of God living in them. If you live according to the sinful nature you cannot please God. If you live according to the sinful nature you do not know God....you are His enemy. If you live according to the sinful nature, you are not a son of God. If you live according to the sinful nature, you will die in your sins. "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

 

[Adullam]

When we embrace the cross of Christ, we are rejected by the lukewarm religious elite. It has always been this way. The cross is an offense to people. Many want the benefits of the cross but few will allow it's power to take away their lives. The cross eliminates the former things we desired so much...it removes the barriers to intimacy with God and makes us enemies of this world system. If we are friends of the world/religious system we know we are not walking in the truth. To be a friend of the world is to be an enemy of God. There is a spiritual war going on. Most have made a private peace with the world and the religious system. Are these not enemies of the cross??

Has Jesus come to bring a universal peace to the world or a sword? Who will stand in the gap?

Hosea 7:11 Ephraim (the church) also is like a silly dove without heart: they call to Egypt, they go to Assyria.

12 When they shall go, I will spread my net upon them; I will bring them down as the fowls of the heaven; I will chastise them, as their congregation hath heard.

13 Woe unto them! for they have fled from me: destruction unto them! because they have transgressed against me: though I have redeemed them, yet they have spoken lies against me.

14 And they have not cried unto me with their heart, when they howled upon their beds: they assemble themselves for corn and wine (communion) , and they rebel against me.

15 Though I have bound and strengthened their arms, yet do they imagine mischief against me.

16 They return, but not to the most High: they are like a deceitful bow: their princes shall fall by the sword for the rage of their tongue: this shall be their derision in the land of Egypt.

 

[francisdesales]

Absolutely. Merely ASKING the question shows a complete lack of understanding of the POINT of Romans - an adherence to the entire point Paul is attempting to diffuse - that works of the law (or any other works to merely appease God) do not save. Listing "works that save" completely undermines Paul's point of an inner heart and conversion.

Regards

Listing "works that save" would be pretty important to those who believe they need to "do something" in order to be saved.

And in these numerous posts, has anyone said that a specific external action can save, without any consideration of the inner disposition of faith??? You still are not getting the gist of our point of view.

Paul clearly said that works of the law do not save. That means sacrificing lambs, washing your hands before eating, etc., cannot of themselves save. WHY? Because the inner dispositions are not NECESSARILY present. Merely DOING something, ANYTHING, is worthless without faith working in love. Sacrificing THEN becomes salvific (to those bound by the Mosaic Law), and God is well-pleased. Is that not what Paul told the Corinthians? I can even submit my body for burning death, but it is nothing if I have not love. WHEW! God does not desire sacrifices (Law) UNLESS there is the proper inner dispositions - being a "spiritual jew".

If it's more than believing on the Lord Jesus Christ, there must be a list else man could never have any assurance of salvation.

Please explain Romans 2, then. Clearly, there are men who are saved for eternal life but did not know about Jesus of Nazareth... How about the Old Testament men who were saved? Did they "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ"? Are you suggesting that billions of people who were either born before Christ or lived outside of the Middle East for hundreds of years before the Catholic Church spread are all condemned???

I posit that salvation into heaven is something more than just "believing 'on' the Lord Jesus Christ" in person... One John suggests something more. (1 John 5:12, if you want something specific).

Are you two claiming that man is kept in the dark concerning his fate until the Lord returns?

Of course not. We have a moral certainty that as long as we remain in Christ, we are going to heaven, because of God's promise. Salvation to heaven is conditional, and as we lead the life as laid down by God, by His power in us, we can trust that He will not abandon us. However, salvation is conditional and depends upon our response to God by faithful, obedient love. If we willingly choose to sin and remain in sin, we are rejecting the promise.

That man must strive until he dies to enter into the kingdom? There sure are a lot of verses that would have to be ignored in order for that to be true. Certainly Paul could not have said with such certainty that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, especially since he considered himself the greatest sinner. ;)

Yes, we must strive to enter the Kingdom, because, as the context of your allusion states, we will be judged by what we do, before the Judgment Seat of Christ. (2 Cor 5:10)

As to your second sentence, Paul didn't say that. He said He would RATHER BE...

In other words, Paul was saying he would rather be dead in the body and in heaven with Christ - but realized that he had a ministry to complete and that his life on earth, given to him by God, still required of him service to others for their sake.

For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven 2 Cor 5:2

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

LOL!!!

Romans is not about the "state of mankind", but about the supposed superiority of the Jews over the Gentiles and that God had always justified by faith, not by works of the Mosaic Law. The evidence is quite clear, it is the Spirit of God that justifies and sanctifies, not our own deeds without the Spirit. National election is not for the sake of pride over others. Election to the Church does not guarantee individual salvation to the Kingdom, as evil Jews or Christians could be cut off from the root.

Rom.2:1Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

Laugh if it helps you to feel superior, Joe, but Paul is speaking about mankind....he even breaks it up into Jews and Gentiles. All men have the law of God written on their consciences...even the Gentiles, which is the point Paul is making. All men sin and come short...those that have no written law and those who do have a written law. Sin must be dealt with, and the only way it can be dealt with is by the grace of God.

I am laughing because that is clearly not the theme of Romans... If Romans was only the end of Chapter 1, skip most of Chapter 2, and go to Chapter 3, maybe... But it includes other chapters, as well, that must be taken into account to get the entire theme.

Paul is not making this his primary thesis - that men are totally depraved. Yes, it is true, men fall short, but the point of saying that is to address JEWS. "Everyone" already KNEW the Pagans fell short - it was taken for granted that they all fell short. The issue is not to state that all men are "filthy rags", but to say that Jews also had problems. Note Romans 2 is addressed to JEWS, not mankind in general:

Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God... Romans 2:17

What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit [is there] of circumcision? Romans 3:1

What then? are we better [than they]? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; Romans 3:9

Paul then gives a devastating litany of the unrighteousness of JEWS, the topic of the context of those various Psalms he is quoting, since it is the wicked men who are pursing the righteous author, David. Later, Paul returns to his TOPIC, to destroy the supposed self-superiority of the Jews - who thought that because they were the chosen People, that God would overlook their sins without proper repentance and would necessarily condemn all other people...

After his diversion, he again gets back on his primary topic, the Jews...

Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? Romans 7:1

I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom [pertaineth] the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service [of God], and the promises; Romans 9:2-4

Paul answers the question of Romans 3 with Romans 9...

Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. Romans 10:1-4

I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin. Romans 11:1

Clearly, the overall theme is not to discuss mankind in general and call them filthy rags, but to downplay the self-made role of the Jews in the plan of God, but to ensure the Jews that they DO have a place in God's plan. The letter addresses Israel's role in God's plan, attacking those who are self-righteous, beginning with Romans 2, where God's plan INCLUDES righteous pagans, continuing with Romans 3 and the analysis of Jewish history of righteousness, and continuing on as he addresses the imaginary interlocutor's questions from the Jew... Some Jews went too far in their assumptions on who God would save and WHY God would save them (NOT because of adherence to the Mosaic Law!) Clearly, God's plan of salvation preceded the Law and depends upon something else - faith.

I'm not sure where you get this "election to the Church" idea...believers are the church for we are the body of Christ, and being elect means one is born of the Spirit. Any "believer" who "changes his mind" never had his heart circumcised by Almighty God to begin with.

Paul clearly says we have been predestined, elected, into God's People. We enter the People of God by baptism, the sacrament of faith in Jesus Christ and His promises, the sacrament where we receive the Spirit poured out upon us. However, as Paul notes, those elected into the Kingdom can subsequently be cut off, removed.

The Bible NEVER says "the believer who changes his mind never was circumcised of the heart", or anything of that sort. That's baloney. That is pitiful assurance that denies the work of God in you TODAY. It makes today MEANINGLESS, because a future falling away will indicate that what you do TODAY is not the work of the Spirit. No Christian would accomodate such thoughts of their OWN walk!!!

Consider the sower of the seed. The Seed is God's Word, God's graces. Were they NOT God's graces that fell upon SOME that lost their faith? Was the fault God, who did not provide "true seed"? The parable says they LOST FAITH, not that they never had it or that God provided a 'fake seed'.

The Spirit comes to men, but men can reject that Spirit, even later in life. That is why Paul exhorts people to remain true to their calling - BECAUSE THEY CAN fall away, losing something they DID have!

Regards

 

[dadof10]

Good deeds are merely the evidence whereby we can know you were saved.
They are the natural outcome of being saved....

Where does Scripture teach this?

Salvation is a gift...we are His workmanship...created unto good works which God has before ordained that we should walk in them.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

This says nothing about good deeds being "merely evidence" of salvation. It says we were created to do good works. Not even close. NEXT!

Those who have the indwelling Holy Spirit will be known by their fruits.

Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Why don't you give the context instead of one verse plucked out and misinterpreted.

"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit. 18 A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will know them by their fruits. (Matthew (RSV) 7)

You can plainly see He is speaking specifically of "false prophets", not all believers. The "fruits" are their prophesies. Let's keep going...

"Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23 And then will I declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.' (Matthew (RSV) 7)

Doesn't sound to me as if Jesus thought that doing the "will of my Father who is in heaven" is merely the "natural outcome of being saved". In fact, the hypothetical "one" in verse 21 calls Jesus "Lord", assuming BELIEF, yet he will not enter the kingdom of Heaven...Why?...That's right, he didn't do "the will of my Father who is in heaven". Just a little more...

"Every one then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house upon the rock; 25 and the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat upon that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. 26 And every one who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house upon the sand; 27 and the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell; and great was the fall of it." (Matthew (RSV) 7)

Nice try...NEXT!

It has been preordained...predestined... that believers will be conformed into the image of Christ.

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Huh???? This proves "Good deeds are merely the evidence whereby we can know you were saved.
They are the natural outcome of being saved.... 0-3 Care to try again?

 

[Adullam]

Good deeds can be done by all. Miraculous deeds are the evidence of salvation from on high!