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The Church is NOT Israel

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Malachi said:
Not "again" but "finally". Because God always keeps His promises,
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Malachi said:
But He also promised to give Abraham and his descendants the land between the Nile and the Euphrates for an everlasting possession (that is probably ten times the area of modern Israel).
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Two things here. Genesis 15:18, does not say the Nile and God says that He gave them all the land He had promised.

Gen 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

Whatever river is being referred to in this verse is less than the Euphrates. I don't see how anyone could say that the Nile is less than the Euphrates?

If the Nile, in Egypt, is the border of the promised land, then they were already living in the promised land when God said.....
Deu 11:10 For the land, whither thou goest in to possess it, is not as the land of Egypt, from whence ye came out, where thou sowedst thy seed, and wateredst it with thy foot, as a garden of herbs;
Deu 11:11 but the land, whither ye go over to possess it, is a land of hills and valleys, and drinketh water of the rain of heaven,
and
Exo 3:17 and I have said, I will bring you up out of the affliction of Egypt unto the land of the Canaanite, and the Hittite, and the Amorite, and the Perizzite, and the Hivite, and the Jebusite, unto a land flowing with milk and honey.

In Joshua 13, Josh is getting old and God says there is still land to be possessed.
In Deut.19 God told Moses to build three sanctuary cities, and if God gave all the land to them, they should build three more.
In Joshua 20:7-9 it tells us that they built all six of these sanctuary cities.
ASV
Deu 19:7 Wherefore I command thee, saying, Thou shalt set apart three cities for thee.
Deu 19:8 And if Jehovah thy God enlarge thy border, as he hath sworn unto thy fathers, and give thee all the land which he promised to give unto thy fathers;
Deu 19:9 if thou shalt keep all this commandment to do it, which I command thee this day, to love Jehovah thy God, and to walk ever in his ways; then shalt thou add three cities more for thee, besides these three:

Jos 21:43 So Jehovah gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
Jos 21:44 And Jehovah gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; Jehovah delivered all their enemies into their hand.

Solomon possessed....
2Ch 9:22 So king Solomon exceeded all the kings of the earth in riches and wisdom.
2Ch 9:26 And he ruled over all the kings from the River [Euphrates] even unto the land of the Philistines, and to the border of Egypt.
2Ch 9:28 And they brought horses for Solomon out of Egypt, and out of all lands.

The Abrahamic covenant was fulfilled. Have you got another covenant or scripture to the contrary of these?
 
Man says the Church is not Israel .. God's Word says
Rom_2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Rom_2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
Rom_2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom_2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Rom_3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
Rom_10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Exo_4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

Are we not the body of firstborn Son of God ?

Guess the differences is how we each hear what God is say to us..
 
Deborah13 said:
Two things here. Genesis 15:18, does not say the Nile and God says that He gave them all the land He had promised.

Gen 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

Whatever river is being referred to in this verse is less than the Euphrates. I don't see how anyone could say that the Nile is less than the Euphrates?

If the Nile, in Egypt, is the border of the promised land, then they were already living in the promised land when God said.....
Deu 11:10 For the land, whither thou goest in to possess it, is not as the land of Egypt, from whence ye came out, where thou sowedst thy seed, and wateredst it with thy foot, as a garden of herbs;
Deu 11:11 but the land, whither ye go over to possess it, is a land of hills and valleys, and drinketh water of the rain of heaven,
and
Exo 3:17 and I have said, I will bring you up out of the affliction of Egypt unto the land of the Canaanite, and the Hittite, and the Amorite, and the Perizzite, and the Hivite, and the Jebusite, unto a land flowing with milk and honey.

In Joshua 13, Josh is getting old and God says there is still land to be possessed.
In Deut.19 God told Moses to build three sanctuary cities, and if God gave all the land to them, they should build three more.
In Joshua 20:7-9 it tells us that they built all six of these sanctuary cities.
ASV
Deu 19:7 Wherefore I command thee, saying, Thou shalt set apart three cities for thee.
Deu 19:8 And if Jehovah thy God enlarge thy border, as he hath sworn unto thy fathers, and give thee all the land which he promised to give unto thy fathers;
Deu 19:9 if thou shalt keep all this commandment to do it, which I command thee this day, to love Jehovah thy God, and to walk ever in his ways; then shalt thou add three cities more for thee, besides these three:

Jos 21:43 So Jehovah gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
Jos 21:44 And Jehovah gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; Jehovah delivered all their enemies into their hand.

Solomon possessed....
2Ch 9:22 So king Solomon exceeded all the kings of the earth in riches and wisdom.
2Ch 9:26 And he ruled over all the kings from the River [Euphrates] even unto the land of the Philistines, and to the border of Egypt.
2Ch 9:28 And they brought horses for Solomon out of Egypt, and out of all lands.

The Abrahamic covenant was fulfilled. Have you got another covenant or scripture to the contrary of these?
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Its the forever thing.The forever part has not been fullfilled
 
Malachi said:
Most mainline Protestant churches teach that the Church has replaced Israel, ans Israel has no right to the land of Israel.
Far too many Christians are not very familiar with all the prophecies pertaining to Israel in the Tanach (OT). Therefore it is necessary for all believers to carefully examine the Old Testament Scriptures and see for themselves that God is not finished with Israel, that there will be "the time of Jacob's trouble", that at the Second Coming of Christ He will gather all the Jews of that time and bring them to Israel, cause them to mourn, repent, be saved, and be restored as the kingdom of Israel under Christ. Then there will be a Millennium.
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I don't agree that MOST mainline denominations do, but there definitely is enough of them out there trying to push this view.
I think the problem is that we don't use different words in English to define different things like Hebrew and Greek do. In the NT, the Greek uses pretty much one word, ἐκκλησία (ekklēsia), that translates into church in English. That same word in the LXX OT, is translated as congregation, and the Hebrew has at least 3 words I know of that are translated into congregation as well. Lately I've been trying to use BOC (Body of Christ) to identify the church on the whole, but the problem is that the Greek doesn't use ἐκκλησία (ekklēsia) to describe the Body of Christ, it uses σώματος τοῦ Χριστοῦ (soma ho Christos). In any event, the church in the NT is indeed the Body of Christ, and is not meant to replace Israel, but to add ALL believers into one. Paul explains this very clearly in Rom 11 (NIV). It is for ALL believers, and in the church, there is not recognition of Jew or Gentile, Slave or Free, Man or Woman....we are ALL equal in God's sight. Of course that does not mean those sectors don't exist, as obviously they do, but they are not the basis for being in and of the Church/Body of Christ. Immediately after Rom 11 in Rom 12, Paul describes the Body of Christ in detail, so that we may know what God's will is in this regard.
 
if it is the land that matters and they were to have it forever they would still have it... the promise or covenant was made with them IF they obeyed ,,,, we can read how they messed up...
Jos 21:43So Jehovah gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
Jos 21:44 And Jehovah gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; Jehovah delivered all their enemies into their hand.

We see here they had it so wouldn't forever be from the time of possession?
 
Deborah13 said:
Two things here. Genesis 15:18, does not say the Nile and God says that He gave them all the land He had promised.
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You will not find the word "Nile" in the Bible. You will find "the river of Egypt" since there is only ONE river and that is the Nile. And the Promised Land is from the Nile to the Euphrates. Now notice carefully what is stated in Gen 17:7,8 and Gen 15:18:

AN EVERLASTING COVENANT
7And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

AN EVERLASTING POSSESSION
8And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

BETWEEN THE NILE AND THE EUPHRATES
18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

Since this remains to be fulfilled (Israel has NEVER occupied this land continuously and exclusively), it is certainly not the Church that will dwell in this land for an EVERLASTING POSSESSION. The Church has been assigned to the New Jerusalem, but redeemed and restored Israel will dwell in the land of Canaan with expanded borders. Study Ezekiel.
 
reba said:
We see here they had it so wouldn't forever be from the time of possession?
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The history of Israel as recorded in Scripture (and also recorded in secular history) clearly shows Israel has never occupied the true Promised Land exclusively and continuously.

For almost 2,000 years the nation of Israel was absent from Palestine. Indeed, the present conflict with the Palestinians is proof that they occupy only a fraction of the Land of Promise, and Israel is presently a secular, Zionist state, not a theocracy under Christ. When God says "an everlasting possession" He means exactly that -- for eternity on earth. But that must be under Christ, the King of Israel.
 
Malachi said:
Not "because they are Jews" but "in spite of the fact that they are Jews and have rebelled and disobeyed God".
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This is true for anyone who follows Jesus. We all rebel and disobey at times but forgiveness is available. This point says nothing about why the Jews are somehow still special.

Anyway, I really liked the post from Reba, about how true Jews are those who are Jews on the inside. It's very much consistent with what Jesus taught. This theme is repeated in several places in the gospels and the epistles.

GAL 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

The promise was made to Jesus.

Paul concludes with: GAL 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. GAL 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The promise is fulfilled in Jesus; not in the physical DNA of flesh Jews. If you do not become a follower of Jesus then you don't get the promise. There is no longer any issue about "gentile" or "Jew". There are only those who follow Jesus and those who don't.

John the Baptist understood this, too. He said, LK 3:8 "...begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham".

Jesus said the same, "If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. JN 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham".

God isn't interested in DNA. Even back in the OT what he really wanted from the people of Israel was their obedience and respect. Over and over again he tried with them but it just wasn't working. The concept of a "chosen people" missed the point entirely, and perhaps that was the whole purpose behind God performing that little exercise; to teach us through practical experience that there can be no "chosen people" in the sense of a visible people who are chosen simply by virtue of which family they are born into rather than inward spiritual qualities. God gave it a chance and the practical experience shows that it simply does not work. Despite all the privileged, prophets, miracles and influence from God the Jews STILL killed their messiah.

What God is looking for are sincere, humble, loving, obedient servants who will choose him. The example of OT Israel shows that simply being "chosen" by God does NOT result in people acquiring those qualities. There needs to be something more. They are qualities which can be found in any individual regardless of their DNA or history.

True Jews are those who have true faith.
 
Malachi said:
8And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
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Continue reading from verse 8-13. The word translated "money" in verses 12 and 13 comes from the Hebrew word for "silver" and can be translated as "price". Ask yourself, Did a Jew, buy you with a price?
Gen 17:12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every male throughout your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any foreigner that is not of thy seed.
Gen 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

The NT reveals the truths in the OT. Paul says, it is not those who are circumcised in the flesh by men's hands who are God's people but those who's hearts are circumcised by God.
So yes, it is an everlasting covenant, even for those bought with a price.

But we also need to see that the land/city, that Abraham was looking for was not a physical land/city built by man, but one built by God.
john darling said:
True Jews are those who have true faith.
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:thumbsup
 
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Stan1953 said:
I very quickly found 33 uses of the word "Nile" in the OT.
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That's because you looked in the NIV.
There are three different words used in the Hebrew for the different times, that different rivers are mentioned but I have not seen where one is used consistently for the Nile.
What they have done is translate the word 'yeor' [H2975] as the Nile when they were sure that it was talking about the Nile, which is fine. But the word appears 65 times in the OT.
In Genesis 15:18 that word for the river of Egypt, is 'nahor' [H5104].
Other scriptures, at least in the KJV, are translated as the 'brook' of Egypt, and that is a third Hebrew word.
But so far, I have been unable to find a clear consist use of any of them. I wish I could. If Bible scholars can't, and Jewish rabbis can't, then I'm more than sure I can't.
 
Deborah13 said:
That's because you looked in the NIV.
There are three different words used in the Hebrew for the different times, that different rivers are mentioned but I have not seen where one is used consistently for the Nile.
What they have done is translate the word 'yeor' [H2975] as the Nile when they were sure that it was talking about the Nile, which is fine. But the word appears 65 times in the OT.
In Genesis 15:18 that word for the river of Egypt, is 'nahor' [H5104].
Other scriptures, at least in the KJV, are translated as the 'brook' of Egypt, and that is a third Hebrew word.
But so far, I have been unable to find a clear consist use of any of them. I wish I could. If Bible scholars can't, and Jewish rabbis can't, then I'm more than sure I can't.
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Well the NRSV shows 29 times, the NASB 34 times, and the NET 29 times. They all show Gen 41:1 as "Nile". and the Hebrew word ye'ôr shows connotations as;
river, stream, canal, Nile, Nile-canal
  1. stream, river (Nile)
  2. Nile-arms, Nile-canals
  3. watercourses
  4. shafts (mining)
  5. river (in general)
One of the reasons I DON'T use the KJV, and prefer the NIV as it is much closer to the original Greek texts, although I use the above versions as well as the MOUNCE NT Reverse Greek Interlinear.
 
Stan1953 said:
Well the NRSV shows 29 times, the NASB 34 times, and the NET 29 times. They all show Gen 41:1 as "Nile". and the Hebrew word ye'ôr shows connotations as;
river, stream, canal, Nile, Nile-canal
  1. stream, river (Nile)
  2. Nile-arms, Nile-canals
  3. watercourses
  4. shafts (mining)
  5. river (in general)
One of the reasons I DON'T use the KJV, and prefer the NIV as it is much closer to the original Greek texts, although I use the above versions as well as the MOUNCE NT Reverse Greek Interlinear.
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personal preference. I don't like the greek language. but that is off topic though I understand why it was used as it had to be but Hebrew to greek is really not as directly translated as some thing but that is expected.
I cant fathom writing God as Kyrios and not teaching God's Name as He said it in the Hebrew even if its consonants only.
 
jasonc said:
personal preference. I don't like the greek language. but that is off topic though I understand why it was used as it had to be but Hebrew to greek is really not as directly translated as some thing but that is expected.
I cant fathom writing God as Kyrios and not teaching God's Name as He said it in the Hebrew even if its consonants only.
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Well the problem with your POV here is that you think the NT was written in Hebrew, which is wasn't. The language of the day was Greek, and the NT was written in Greek, just as most Torahs used were in Greek based on the LXX of 350 BCE.
It is obvious that some times Jesus spoke in Aramaic as the NT shows, but I don't know if He did this all the time.
 
Malachi said:
You will not find the word "Nile" in the Bible. You will find "the river of Egypt" since there is only ONE river and that is the Nile. And the Promised Land is from the Nile to the Euphrates. Now notice carefully what is stated in Gen 17:7,8 and Gen 15:18:
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Malachi said:
18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
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As you pointed out it never says the Nile anywhere in scripture. There are scriptures where it is obvious that the scripture is talking about the Nile, this is not one of them. There are different Hebrew words used for the rivers, but I won't get into that.

IS the Nile greater than the Euphrates? If it is/was then this river, in this scripture, cannot be referring to the Nile. It's that simple.

Joseph to Pharaoh:
Gen 47:4 And they said unto Pharaoh, To sojourn in the land are we come; for there is no pasture for thy servants' flocks; for the famine is sore in the land of Canaan: now therefore, we pray thee, let thy servants dwell in the land of Goshen.

God gave the land of Canaan to Abraham and his seed. When the drought came they moved to Goshen, in Egypt. Where was Goshen? It was located in the eastern delta of the Nile and in Egypt, not in Canaan. So the river of Egypt, spoken of in Genesis 15:8 cannot be the Nile. They had to leave Goshen to return to the promised land of Canaan. So the border of the promised land was further east of the eastern delta of the Nile, where Goshen was.
Anyone who has e-sword can look at the map 'Egypt to Sinai 1400 to 1200 BC' for a visual.

But the greatest proof we have, that they had been given all the land that God promised, is the scriptures that have been posted by reba and myself.
Also....
The scriptures tell us what peoples they had to conquer in order to obtain this land, the Egyptians are not in this list of peoples. Therefore, God did not include Egyptian land in the land of Canaan and we know the Goshen was east of the Nile, in Egypt.
 
The argument that, if the river of Egypt is the Nile, then that means the Israelites were wandering for forty years in the promised land, should be logically convincing that the Nile is not the biblical river of Egypt.


Psa 50:12 - If I were hungry, I would not tell thee: for the world is mine, and the fulness thereof.

Jhn 16:15 - All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.​

Jesus is the fulfillment of all land prophecy. Jesus, the seed (singular) of Abraham owns it all, forever.
 
Stan1953 said:
Well the problem with your POV here is that you think the NT was written in Hebrew, which is wasn't. The language of the day was Greek, and the NT was written in Greek, just as most Torahs used were in Greek based on the LXX of 350 BCE.
It is obvious that some times Jesus spoke in Aramaic as the NT shows, but I don't know if He did this all the time.
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Lxx was used by the hellenistic jews not the Pharisees. The lxx was meant to be non literal translation.the mss was used over the lxx why is that?do you really think that modern or future Isreal should use greek only?besides the Torah was written in 70 languages as well there was a great multitude of 70 diverse speakers of nations that left and become hebrews.the you can't fail to see why I'm saying that.it's about the culture.Greeks a very linear wooden in uses of things.great for science but not good for faith.I try not to approach the bible that way.genesis the name in Greek means origin.but beereshith is what the first verse of the bible says condensed. Exodus means what?a mass movement from one point to another whereas shemoth means in short chapter one verses one these are the names!you telling this jew you are wrong on the greek then telling me about Isreal being greek mostly is a bit ironic.
 
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