The Church is NOT Israel

[Stan1953]

Lxx was used by the hellenistic jews not the Pharisees. The lxx was meant to be non literal translation.the mss was used over the lxx why is that?do you really think that modern or future Isreal should use greek only?besides the Torah was written in 70 languages as well there was a great multitude of 70 diverse speakers of nations that left and become hebrews.the you can't fail to see why I'm saying that.it's about the culture.Greeks a very linear wooden in uses of things.great for science but not good for faith.I try not to approach the bible that way.genesis the name in Greek means origin.but beereshith is what the first verse of the bible says condensed. Exodus means what?a mass movement from one point to another whereas shemoth means in short chapter one verses one these are the names!you telling this jew you are wrong on the greek then telling me about Isreal being greek mostly is a bit ironic.

The LXX was used by ALL in Jesus' day. It was actually done by 70 Jewish scholars of their own law, because they were worried their own language was fading away. The following is just one of many articles on this subject.
http://www.jesus.org/birth-of-jesus/genealogy-and-jewish-heritage/what-bible-did-jesus-use.html

 

[jasonc]

The LXX was used by ALL in Jesus' day. It was actually done by 70 Jewish scholars of their own law, because they were worried their own language was fading away. The following is just one of many articles on this subject.
http://www.jesus.org/birth-of-jesus/genealogy-and-jewish-heritage/what-bible-did-jesus-use.html

all? so they spoke Hebrew? koine greek ? is where now dead in manner of speaking. sure you can speak it but well NO Hebrew around means what? no JEWS. how can a jew speak greek and NOT know his or her culture.
besides even jews say that about themselves its a FAITH not a bloodline!

thank you josephus who was there a 70.
whatever you do don't tell what you any messianic jew, or jew that stuff. we are free to use what language I can read or want to use. I said personal preference. paul was speaker of what languages and how did he know that(roman citizen) and its possible that he also knew the greek myths to debate that but it seems that the Pharisees eschewed greek.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramaic_New_Testament
but even that has a bias of the Aramaic lovers and frankly, its not a matter of that big of deal. If I want to use Hebrew for the brit chadosh, I can! messianic jews do just that. they call the apostle paul, rabbi shaoul. I see why. its not big difference to me.

it also could argue that its also ironic since the niv uses the mss for the tanach. no the lxx only. multiple sources. personal preferences. that is all.

I have done studies on the greek views of hades, gehenna and the koine origins of that and spoke to a fluent speaker of the that I know. so don't assume that I don't care for the greek.personal preference. I prefer to see things from a jewish angle first. not a greek/goyim angle.

irony number 2. telling a jew he is wrong for embracing his native view as its in a lineage in a thread about the promise of land given to the very NATION that BIRTHED by the HESHEM in a promise to the seed of Abraham.

 

[Deborah13]

not a greek/goyim angle.

Goy/Goyim does not mean gentile/greek, Your yiddish is showing. :wink

 

[jasonc]

Goy/Goyim does not mean gentile/greek, Your yiddish is showing. :wink

Not in all contexts. Nations.people. it's a deragatory term for non jew.

 

[Deborah13]

Not in all contexts. Nations.people. it's a derogatory term for non jew.

I read somewhere that some of the Jewish people used goyim in a derogatory way after the holocaust because those who didn't understand Hebrew/Yiddish dialect wouldn't understand when they were being called a name. That may have been on chadbad or in the Jewish Encyclopedia site.
Maybe they were actually blessing them without knowing it.
Gen 12:2 And I make thee become a great nation [goy], and bless thee, and make thy name great; and be thou a blessing.

 

[Stan1953]

all? so they spoke Hebrew? koine greek ? is where now dead in manner of speaking. sure you can speak it but well NO Hebrew around means what? no JEWS. how can a jew speak greek and NOT know his or her culture.
besides even jews say that about themselves its a FAITH not a bloodline!

Sorry but I'm having a hard time understanding your post here. It seems a tad incohesive. In any event No I didn't say all, I said it was written in Greek and that the Priesthood and Pharisees used the Greek on a regular and normal basis. I doubt very much any of them lost their Hebrew language, any more than Italians lost theirs, even though Greek was the main language of the day.
Yes Koine Greek is not used any longer in Greece, it is modern Greek, which is why scholars have to study Koine Greek to properly translate it into modern English.

thank you josephus who was there a 70.
whatever you do don't tell what you any messianic jew, or jew that stuff. we are free to use what language I can read or want to use. I said personal preference. paul was speaker of what languages and how did he know that(roman citizen) and its possible that he also knew the greek myths to debate that but it seems that the Pharisees eschewed greek.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramaic_New_Testament
but even that has a bias of the Aramaic lovers and frankly, its not a matter of that big of deal. If I want to use Hebrew for the brit chadosh, I can! messianic jews do just that. they call the apostle paul, rabbi shaoul. I see why. its not big difference to me.

again this is very incohesive to me, but moving on Yes, Paul knew Greek, Hebrew and Latin/Roman. As he was raised in a Hellenistic environment he no doubt knew many of their myths and legends, but was a Pharisee of the highest order, being part of the Sanhedrin, so I doubt he was influenced by Greek tradition much.

it also could argue that its also ironic since the niv uses the mss for the tanach. no the lxx only. multiple sources. personal preferences. that is all.
I have done studies on the greek views of hades, gehenna and the koine origins of that and spoke to a fluent speaker of the that I know. so don't assume that I don't care for the greek.personal preference. I prefer to see things from a jewish angle first. not a greek/goyim angle.

The NIV used the following texts;
Textual basis NT: Nestle-Aland Greek New Testament.
OT: Biblia Hebraica Masoretic Hebrew Text, Dead Sea Scrolls, Samaritan Pentateuch, Aquila, Symmachus and Theodotion, Latin Vulgate, Syriac Peshitta, Aramaic Targums, for Psalms Juxta Hebraica of Jerome
I have no idea what you mean by don't assume as again you are a tad incohesive in your writing.

irony number 2. telling a jew he is wrong for embracing his native view as its in a lineage in a thread about the promise of land given to the very NATION that BIRTHED by the HESHEM in a promise to the seed of Abraham.

I made no such statement.

 

[JohnD]

Bear in mind the distinction between the spirit and the flesh.

Spirit Israel / physical Israel
Spirit Jew / physical Jew

Romans 9:6 (NASB95)
6But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;

 

[JohnD]

You can put spirit on one side of a legal pad and physical on the other and list under each what pertains to being spiritually Jewish or physically Jewish right down the line from Genesis 3:15 to Revelation 12.

 

[smaller]

Paul observed for us in many places that following blinded flesh people (unbelieving Jews in this application) is a rather worthless engagement.

Titus 3:9
But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

2 Corinthians 5:16
Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

Phil. 3:
4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

Do I think it possible that unbelieving Jewish enemies of the Gospel can collectively come to Christ? Yes! That can surely happen. But then they would no longer be Jews anyway. All of their "Jewish things" I might think they would see, just as Paul saw. Relatively worthless, at least in the external senses.

I certainly wouldn't waste my believing life waiting for that to happen either. The blinded nation of Israel fighting with the blinded nations of the middle east are just that. Blinded enemies of the Gospel busying themselves with intentions to destroy one another, as all enemies of the Gospel are actively engaged in.

 

[smaller]

Revelation 21
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

The New Earth is Our Collective Glorified Temple/Body in which Christ dwells, with no enemies present therein.

Was Abraham anticipating a new town of sticks and bricks in current Jerusalem? Unlikely.

Hebrews 11:
9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

The foundations of that city are not sticks and bricks with concrete support pillars and mortar, but are in fact GLORIFIED PERFECTED believers.

It is presently problematic to perceive these matters. The New City is A BRIDE, prepared and adorned.

Seriously, between the Nile (not referred to as such, but as "the river of Egypt") and the Euphrates in the current physical senses? Uh, not.

The journey of Abraham was from the river of Egypt, which is BONDAGE and SLAVERY to sin under the Great Dragon, Pharaoh (Ezekiel 29:3), to the River of Euphrates, which is FRUITFULNESS.

It has zero to do with either physical rivers in their current senses of applications NOR the land in-between them, unless we want to see the "flesh bodies" of the people then or now, engaged between these two rivers in our current parcel of earth, our flesh bodies.

The Wisdom of spiritual Kings arises from Hebron, which, by meaning is, "association(s.)" Hebron was interestingly delivered to Caleb, a GENTILE in Israel. There is your picture! Joshua 14:14, and it remains so to this day.

Caleb = "a dog"

in Israel. What/Who is "Israel?" GOD PREVAILS. Association lesson 101

 

[Sinthesis]

Revelation 21
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

The New Earth is Our Collective Glorified Temple/Body in which Christ dwells, with no enemies present therein.

Was Abraham anticipating a new town of sticks and bricks in current Jerusalem? Unlikely.

Hebrews 11:
9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

The foundations of that city are not sticks and bricks with concrete support pillars and mortar, but are in fact GLORIFIED PERFECTED believers.

It is presently problematic to perceive these matters. The New City is A BRIDE, prepared and adorned.

Seriously, between the Nile (not referred to as such, but as "the river of Egypt") and the Euphrates in the current physical senses? Uh, not.

The journey of Abraham was from the river of Egypt, which is BONDAGE and SLAVERY to sin under the Great Dragon, Pharaoh (Ezekiel 29:3), to the River of Euphrates, which is FRUITFULNESS.

It has zero to do with either physical rivers in their current senses of applications NOR the land in-between them, unless we want to see the "flesh bodies" of the people then or now, engaged between these two rivers in our current parcel of earth, our flesh bodies.

The Wisdom of spiritual Kings arises from Hebron, which, by meaning is, "association(s.)" Hebron was interestingly delivered to Caleb, a GENTILE in Israel. There is your picture! Joshua 14:14, and it remains so to this day.

Caleb = "a dog"

in Israel. What/Who is "Israel?" GOD PREVAILS. Association lesson 101

Caleb, though the son of Jephunneh the Kenezite, is actually not a gentile, but an Israelite through his mother.

Num 13:6 - Of the tribe of Judah, Caleb the son of Jephunneh.​

In some ways Caleb's heredity is allegorical to the physical lineage of 'God's People', who were only created as a people when they were separated out from the Gentiles.

 

[smaller]

Caleb, though the son of Jephunneh the Kenezite, is actually not a gentile, but an Israelite through his mother.

Num 13:6 - Of the tribe of Judah, Caleb the son of Jephunneh.​

In some ways Caleb's heredity is allegorical to the physical lineage of 'God's People', who were only created as a people when they were separated out from the Gentiles.

Where did you get the information about his supposed Jewish mother from scripture? Were it therein, there would be no question of Caleb's Jewish identity. But there is that question, not addressed by scripture other than what we have, as Caleb, not from a tribe of Israel.

I cited the meaning of his name, "a dog," (an association tipoff of his identity) exactly to avoid a discussion of his genealogy, which are generally worthless propositions. And from what I know, there is no scriptural proof of his having a Jewish mother, and just as many reasons to see him as being "an adopted son" of the tribe of Judah, looking at his lineage that is there. Some also point to Caleb's lack of Jewish ancestry lineage being noted in land assignment. Caleb didn't actually receive the city of Hebron either, but of outskirt areas (fields and villages, Josh. 21:12, 1 Chron. 6:56.) The city of Hebron itself, which was a city of refuge, was given to the Levites (Num. 35:6).

In the spiritual senses we all have a Israelite, Jewish Mother.

Galatians 4:26
But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

I don't invest much, if any, spiritual stake in DNA genealogy in any cases of sights. There is only one tribe, of man. And this is how Paul saw things:

Acts 17:
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

Paul was not much interested in "Jewish blood." Neither am I. The "sinless Perfect Blood" of Jesus is a whole nother matter, to which terms justification, redemption, purchase, forgiveness, peace, sanctification and vestiture are all associated.

 

[Deborah13]

Caleb, though the son of Jephunneh the Kenezite, is actually not a gentile, but an Israelite through his mother.

Num 13:6 - Of the tribe of Judah, Caleb the son of Jephunneh.​

In some ways Caleb's heredity is allegorical to the physical lineage of 'God's People', who were only created as a people when they were separated out from the Gentiles.

This is a good point. It would explain why Moses made a special provision for Caleb, making sure he would receive a portion of the land. Land was given father to son and stayed within each tribe. When the father of the two sisters died without leaving a son, Moses agreed to let them have the land as long as they married within their tribe.
I don't think Caleb would not have been legible to receive a portion if his mother married a gentile.
What do you think?

 

[Sinthesis]

Where did you get the information about his supposed Jewish mother from scripture? Were it therein, there would be no question of Caleb's Jewish identity. But there is that question, not addressed by scripture other than what we have, as Caleb, not from a tribe of Israel.

Num 13:6 - Of the tribe of Judah, Caleb the son of Jephunneh.
​

Judah is a tribe of Israel.

 

[Sinthesis]

This is a good point. It would explain why Moses made a special provision for Caleb, making sure he would receive a portion of the land. Land was given father to son and stayed within each tribe. When the father of the two sisters died without leaving a son, Moses agreed to let them have the land as long as they married within their tribe.
I don't think Caleb would not have been legible to receive a portion if his mother married a gentile.
What do you think?

Caleb is the God ordained prince of the tribe of Judah. Caleb didn't receive his inheritance of promised land from Jephunneh, but from God.

Num 34:16 ¶ And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Num 34:17 - These are the names of the men which shall divide the land unto you: Eleazar the priest, and Joshua the son of Nun.
Num 34:18 - And ye shall take one prince of every tribe, to divide the land by inheritance.
Num 34:19 - And the names of the men are these: Of the tribe of Judah, Caleb the son of Jephunneh.
Num 34:20 - And of the tribe of the children of Simeon, Shemuel the son of Ammihud.
Num 34:21 - Of the tribe of Benjamin, Elidad the son of Chislon.
Num 34:22 - And the prince of the tribe of the children of Dan, Bukki the son of Jogli.
Num 34:23 - The prince of the children of Joseph, for the tribe of the children of Manasseh, Hanniel the son of Ephod.
Num 34:24 - And the prince of the tribe of the children of Ephraim, Kemuel the son of Shiphtan.
Num 34:25 - And the prince of the tribe of the children of Zebulun, Elizaphan the son of Parnach.
Num 34:26 - And the prince of the tribe of the children of Issachar, Paltiel the son of Azzan.
Num 34:27 - And the prince of the tribe of the children of Asher, Ahihud the son of Shelomi.
Num 34:28 - And the prince of the tribe of the children of Naphtali, Pedahel the son of Ammihud.
Num 34:29 - These are they whom the LORD commanded to divide the inheritance unto the children of Israel in the land of Canaan.​

Why might the son of a gentile be counted among the Israelites, and one of only two original adults worthy to enter the promised land?

Num 14:24 - But my servant Caleb, because he had another spirit with him, and hath followed me fully, him will I bring into the land whereinto he went; and his seed shall possess it.​

Why was Caleb counted among Judah? Most likely because of his physical mother's affiliation in the absence of a father's affiliation. I seem to recall a variation on this concept being important much later.

 

[JLB]

Num 13:6 - Of the tribe of Judah, Caleb the son of Jephunneh.
​

Judah is a tribe of Israel.

Amen.

 

[Stan1953]

You will see the proper tribes of Israel in Rev 7:5-8

 

[Obadiah]

Not necessarily directed at the above post... But this is the Apologetics and Theology forum and as most of you know this forum requires your posts to be based on scripture and you must cite that scripture in your post. If your post is of a nature that it is impossible to cite scripture to back it, it doesn't belong in this thread and if the rabbit trail you are following can't be supported by specific scripture, it shouldn't be followed in this forum. Please take those subjects to a more appropriate forum. The guidelines of this forum need to be followed here if this thread is to stay open and personal warnings are to be avoided. Thanks.

 

[Sinthesis]

You will see the proper tribes of Israel in Rev 7:5-8

"Proper" depends on context. The tribes listed in Numbers 34 are specific to the granting of the promised land to Israel. Levi is not included because Levi has a different type of inheritance (Jos 13:14) . Reuben and Gad are not included in my above post because they took their inheritance on the east of the Jordan river, which is not technically part of the promised land (Num 34:14,15)

 

[Stan1953]

"Proper" depends on context. The tribes listed in Numbers 34 are specific to the granting of the promised land to Israel. Levi is not included because Levi has a different type of inheritance (Jos 13:14) . Reuben and Gad are not included in my above post because they took their inheritance on the east of the Jordan river, which is not technically part of the promised land (Num 34:14,15)

I understand, which is why I said proper. It is the LAST Revelation of Jesus Christ, so I do assume it is the proper one. There were indeed many issues in the OT regarding tribes. I did not with interest that Levi was one of those tribes.