The concept of free will

[Blain DeCastro]

So I am in a heated debate about free will and there are two camps of thought one is that we do have free will and they are being called free willers the other is that we do not have free will

Now the ones who believe we don't have free will do believe we have a will just not free will I looked in scripture and I see some things of note, we are told we are slaves many times slaves to our desires or slaves to Christ and only when we accept Christ are we set free from being slaves to sin but then we are now slaves to Christ

I do not however see free will or us being free so I am wondering are we ever free to choose or are we just slaves in some form or another? What are all your thoughts on this?

 

[Hidden In Him]

they are being called free willers

Mildly derogatory label. We had one guy here who used to refer to them as "FreeWillians."

That got some comments, and there was talk of changing a certain member's avatar to something like this.

 

[grumix8]

Free Bill !!! The political one.

 

[grumix8]

We have freedom but God lets us choose freewill letters and lexicon do exist in the bible.

Freewill is given to you since you are born if you are not born in a country which you are made slave by conquest like Rome. You are slave since birth, man was not meant to be slave. Adam has freedom and the word freedom to choose or freewill does exist and I have proved it.
Also the word לִבְחוֹר

livkhór is ( To choose )
together with this word
חֵרוּת

( Freedom ) another word.

Freewill did existed and in Deutronomy 30:19 God did give a choice two but still he did. And life is a good choice a great choice. Is their more of freewill in Judaism ? Yes, there is more and more to come. The best is yet to come !

As you see you can choose and you have freewill but it was limited. It was limted in Eden and limited now but Jesus gives us salvation. Now some will say you can't decide becuase God already planned everyting for you only have two choices live or die ! God gave it to you, I will ask you how many choices did you make in all your life ? How many errors and victories i'm know you had many. All of humanity has but remember you do have freedom to choose and God did gave not only Deuteronomy 30:19 to choose. in new testament Jesus aske the people if they wanted to be saved and loved by him. And told them they can be saved by him and be free.

Has in the past God has given choice besides Deuteronomy to prophets and people in the bible to change their destiny ? Yes, you Enoch and Elijah who did not Die. If you put prophets and people who were given a chance to change their destiny and totally show that the law of those times like the egyptians with Moses . Those laws were limited and they amde slaves of all. And Moses change his destiny and he was prince and become a beggar and then a prophet a savior to his people. I assure Moses was looking for his purpose in life and in his heart he wanted to do God's will and his plan. David had many choices, Paul persecuted Jesus and he got struck by God and realize he had to change his way, Deborah was used by God to save her people, and many prophets were normal people who God chosed and they were changed by God and prove laws of men and concepts of romans and egyptians were wrong and like the modern world is still wrong.

The prophets they prove by miracles that prove laws of pysics have errors. That laws of men and modern one have errors. That you can change your destiny i'm not asking you to sin, not asking you to go get a gun and rob. No, not asking you to make a company and like the rich got rich the bad way not to go change your destiny like that. Do things God's way and change your destiny. God's way is there people and he always gives you choice to avoid those errors and do things the hard way and make it

We are all meant to do his plan and his will i'm sure you have all forgotten what we read in the commands threads that I posted sometime ago and talk about " What is God's commandments and difference them " thread perhaps you do not know or forgotten. But with scripture God's word is not only the commandments but everything God has said when he was on Earth and i'm taking about when he told his prophets and told Israel what to do is law ! All his words are commandments unfortune it that is promblem we do not know all of it when he talked in which way he said things we have lost the correct way the talked in those times.

It is a dilemna but we know all his words that come out of his mouth is a law. But we know how to discern that he said somethings to Israel and something to neighbouring countries (like Babylon) was not meant to be use by us. Somethings that he said to kings, prophets, and his people are different for God is a God that is precise and exact and he does not make mistakes. The way of talk how ancient Israel is talked in times of Abraham, Moses, the kings era, and exile in those times the people changed and language changed.

Even though the correct way how they said things was lost we can still do his will and still complete the law of the 10 commandments (Moses law) and the other mitzvah laws. By how Paul says in romans love is the fulfilment and Jesus love thy neighbor and thy God. For those who are new and read freewill I have come across many people and wish to find true love and freewill. I will tell ya God has planned freewill for us and true love and he does wants us to fulfill the law he's way. And I know many of you don't know and I have explained it in other forums some do get to know true love and freewill and other haven't I assure you must have the love in the bible to get it. Have the faith Jesus says and love he says to go and find your personal mission and the right way to discern the commandments so your will not be done but deny yourself like Jesus and he will give you the way to find that and do his plan and God's will.

God does give us his plan and his commandments and even do we do not speak hebrew like David's time or Moses. People have been doing his plan and accomplish it like the prophets and today even though we have modern society that has technology and eduaction is easy. This world is full of lies and they wish to make people forget and don't know why God has sent you. But God has given us people in the bible and in the real world that have found their purpose and have found their personal plan. With God's help and without it people do exist and God's does things in his mysterious ways for he is A God that has secrets but to find the ture love, the personal plan he has for you, and for you to be the person God wants you to be. It is hard but the reason why it's hard it's because you are not his people, you are not those people of Israel who are real worshippers of the lord. The ones who love and will go all the way for the lord. You can say you are one but I assure I have met many brothers and sister online and real life that falter and left the church pray with me that things are hard and isntead of people searching for God and doing his plan they leave the church.

And they leave for other things discussion,no job, and doubt themselves when it the time to hold on God more time than ever before. I will tell ya to be his people will find your purpose and if you tell me doing the things of daily devotional with God and some of you pray all day, and good news many brothers tell me they are singing psalms Colossians 3:15-17 like said. And doing it is good God is hard sometimes and he gives us tests and I pray you pass your tests. And if you do his plan in the bible and worship him constant and put things in hands and what we have been talking. It is his plan and I will also tell you if you go find that personal mission he wants you because not only you have to do the basic but pray and pass that hard test you have in life and ask him to tell you your personal mission which ever that he gave you before sending you from heaven to here.

 

[Blain DeCastro]

Thank you grumix8 for your very detailed reply I was unable to read all of it due to my being legally blind I cannot read super long posts but from what I did read you made a very good case.

It is difficult to convince anyone who believes in their own theology but as for me I am still deciding whether free will is true or not because I have seen good cases made for both but I am willing to change my mind should God lead me to

 

[jasonc]

Fastfredy0 freewillyism ,lol

 

[Fastfredy0]

I do not however see free will or us being free so I am wondering are we ever free to choose or are we just slaves in some form or another? What are all your thoughts on this?

Unfortunately, most discussions of "free will" ignore the need to define what FREE WILL is. Free Willies simply define it as the ability to make a choice as this fits their theology. In actuality, this is just the definition of being able to follow one's will and ignores the adjective FREE of FREE WILL.
The FREE part of Free Will is defined as having desires (a will) that are entirely self-determined. This is a logically impossible criteria for a created being as by definition a creation must have a cause outside itself. That cause determines the attributes of its creation (see Isaiah 64:8)
So, just because one can choose does not mean the choice is "free". Another source determined your desires and you choose according to those desires.
Empirical evidence validates these statements. If search you will find a strong correlation between the religious beliefs of children and their parents. If a child had "FREE" (self-determined) Will then it is just as likely a Roman Catholic's child would be R.C as it would be protestant, Muslim, atheist, whatever. In actuality, 70% of children follow the religion of their parents.

The bible says God will determines who is saved. John 1:12-13
The bible says we cannot self-determine our salvation. Romans 3:11 there are none who seek God

John 1:3 All things were created through Him, and apart from Him not one thing was created
that has been created. Hebrews 1:3b sustaining all things by His powerful word. Nothing exists and all things are sustained by God. ALL THINGS includes our thoughts and all of who we are.

Job 41:11 Who has first given to Me, that I should repay him? Whatever is under the whole heavens is Mine. This would contradict “free will” which contends that we are to be rewarded for self-caused believing.

Free Willyism would require the all knowing God to LEARN from us whether we decides to believe salvificly. For God to LEARN and be immutable is a contradiction.

Free Willyism, by definition, believes in salvation by Faith + Works. The Work is the effort one must do independent of God to cause oneself to believe salvicly. This contradicts Eph. 2:9

God’s liberty of action (sovereignty) would be limited by the assumed powers and prerogatives of man’s “free will”.

If God be not sovereign in regards to salvation then believers would have no sufficient warrant to pray to God for salvation.

Romans 3:24 “Being justified freely by His grace” “freely”, you don’t do anything to earn it

1 Corinthians 4:7 "Who maketh thee to differ from another? And what hast thou that thou didst not receive? Now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?". God had given them everything they had; everything includes faith for those elect

yada, yada, yada

 

[Blain DeCastro]

Unfortunately, most discussions of "free will" ignore the need to define what FREE WILL is. Free Willies simply define it as the ability to make a choice as this fits their theology. In actuality, this is just the definition of being able to follow one's will and ignores the adjective FREE of FREE WILL.
The FREE part of Free Will is defined as having desires (a will) that are entirely self-determined. This is a logically impossible criteria for a created being as by definition a creation must have a cause outside itself. That cause determines the attributes of its creation (see Isaiah 64:8)
So, just because one can choose does not mean the choice is "free". Another source determined your desires and you choose according to those desires.
Empirical evidence validates these statements. If search you will find a strong correlation between the religious beliefs of children and their parents. If a child had "FREE" (self-determined) Will then it is just as likely a Roman Catholic's child would be R.C as it would be protestant, Muslim, atheist, whatever. In actuality, 70% of children follow the religion of their parents.

The bible says God will determines who is saved. John 1:12-13
The bible says we cannot self-determine our salvation. Romans 3:11 there are none who seek God

John 1:3 All things were created through Him, and apart from Him not one thing was created
that has been created. Hebrews 1:3b sustaining all things by His powerful word. Nothing exists and all things are sustained by God. ALL THINGS includes our thoughts and all of who we are.

Job 41:11 Who has first given to Me, that I should repay him? Whatever is under the whole heavens is Mine. This would contradict “free will” which contends that we are to be rewarded for self-caused believing.

Free Willyism would require the all knowing God to LEARN from us whether we decides to believe salvificly. For God to LEARN and be immutable is a contradiction.

Free Willyism, by definition, believes in salvation by Faith + Works. The Work is the effort one must do independent of God to cause oneself to believe salvicly. This contradicts Eph. 2:9

God’s liberty of action (sovereignty) would be limited by the assumed powers and prerogatives of man’s “free will”.

If God be not sovereign in regards to salvation then believers would have no sufficient warrant to pray to God for salvation.

Romans 3:24 “Being justified freely by His grace” “freely”, you don’t do anything to earn it

1 Corinthians 4:7 "Who maketh thee to differ from another? And what hast thou that thou didst not receive? Now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?". God had given them everything they had; everything includes faith for those elect

yada, yada, yada

This was very insightful and I appreciated your detailed response thank you I will have to consider all this into my own belief

 

[Blain DeCastro]

I am also wondering about believing we are told to believe many times in scripture and believing is a verb that requires one to choose to believe or not so does believing mean we are choosing life or death and if so is that not free will?

 

[Fastfredy0]

I am also wondering about believing we are told to believe many times in scripture and believing is a verb that requires one to choose to believe or not so does believing mean we are choosing life or death and if so is that not free will?

No one will answer your question properly because your question does not define "free will".

so does believing mean we are choosing life or death[?]

If the bible is true then the answer is YES. John 3:18

... if so is that not free will?

If "free will" is defined as "doing what you desire most" then the answer is YES
If "free will" is defined as "doing what you desire most, and you determine your desires" then the answer is NO because this premise is false as one does not determine ones desires as I pointed out above. Your desires are determined by a "sin nature" which you did not select; rather, you were born "spiritually dead" which is supported by Ephesians 2:1 and Romans 5:12-21. These passages describe a state of spiritual separation from God due to sin, a condition inherited from Adam and experienced by all humanity before receiving salvation through Jesus Christ. A "spiritually dead" person will always choose to not believe salvificly unless they are made alive (regenerated/born again) by the Spirit, said process causing them to belief salvificly.
John 6:29 Jesus answered, “This is the work of God: that you believe [adhere to, trust in, rely on, and have faith] in the One whom He has sent.” Clearly this verse defines faith as a work. Thus faith must originate from God since God’s grace does not include man works (Galatians 5:2).

 

[Blain DeCastro]

No one will answer your question properly because your question does not define "free will".


If the bible is true then the answer is YES. John 3:18


If "free will" is defined as "doing what you desire most" then the answer is YES
If "free will" is defined as "doing what you desire most, and you determine your desires" then the answer is NO because this premise is false as one does not determine ones desires as I pointed out above. Your desires are determined by a "sin nature" which you did not select; rather, you were born "spiritually dead" which is supported by Ephesians 2:1 and Romans 5:12-21. These passages describe a state of spiritual separation from God due to sin, a condition inherited from Adam and experienced by all humanity before receiving salvation through Jesus Christ. A "spiritually dead" person will always choose to not believe salvificly unless they are made alive (regenerated/born again) by the Spirit, said process causing them to belief salvificly.
John 6:29 Jesus answered, “This is the work of God: that you believe [adhere to, trust in, rely on, and have faith] in the One whom He has sent.” Clearly this verse defines faith as a work. Thus faith must originate from God since God’s grace does not include man works (Galatians 5:2).

Thank you for the response, so how does one define free will? Because clearly we have the ability to choose but if it is not our desires that are determined as free will then how does one define free will but also while discerning the will of a person?

If say our sinful nature dictates our desires and not ourselves then how are we to be held accountable for our sinful desires?

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

So I am in a heated debate about free will and there are two camps of thought one is that we do have free will and they are being called free willers the other is that we do not have free will

Now the ones who believe we don't have free will do believe we have a will just not free will I looked in scripture and I see some things of note, we are told we are slaves many times slaves to our desires or slaves to Christ and only when we accept Christ are we set free from being slaves to sin but then we are now slaves to Christ

I do not however see free will or us being free so I am wondering are we ever free to choose or are we just slaves in some form or another? What are all your thoughts on this?

Blaine DeCastro, I believe that the Bible's givens are that God created us both to be fully dependent on him as our Creator and to be relatively free to make our own decisions in life, one of the mysteries of creation. But you are correct to say that we are slaves to Satan and sin before God makes us into his slaves to righteousness, as Paul says, but also to be his adopted children. Those truths support my belief that I have just mentioned.

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—
Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

Rom_8:16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
Rom_8:17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.
Rom_8:21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

 

[Fastfredy0]

how does one define free will?

I am aware of 3 definitions.

1) The ability to choose what the desire most. (note: this definition does not address the cause/source of
ones desires)
2) Libertarian Free Will - Libertarian Free Will is the ability to make choices without any prior prejudice, inclination, or disposition. For the will to be free it must act from a posture of neutrality, with absolutely no bias. It determines its own volitions; so as not to be dependent, in its determinations, on any cause without itself, nor determined by anything prior to its own acts. Indifference and therefore amorality belongs to Liberty in their notion of it, or that the mind, previous to the act of volition, be in equilibrio (equilibrium in uncertainty).
3) Self-determinism (freewill) means one makes choices independent of God and any other influences.

If say our sinful nature dictates our desires and not ourselves then how are we to be held accountable for our sinful desires?

Well, "sin nature" is another name for "amoral desires".
To understand being held accountable/responsible one should look at the definition of "responsible".
Definition of responsible: having an obligation to do something
so ... when God tells you to not sin you are "responsible" for doing so. It doesn't matter that it is impossible for anyone to stop sinning in regards to "responsibility". People wrongly assume that a responsibility must be within a person's control, but this is not the case.

 

[Blain DeCastro]

I am aware of 3 definitions.

1) The ability to choose what the desire most. (note: this definition does not address the cause/source of
ones desires)
2) Libertarian Free Will - Libertarian Free Will is the ability to make choices without any prior prejudice, inclination, or disposition. For the will to be free it must act from a posture of neutrality, with absolutely no bias. It determines its own volitions; so as not to be dependent, in its determinations, on any cause without itself, nor determined by anything prior to its own acts. Indifference and therefore amorality belongs to Liberty in their notion of it, or that the mind, previous to the act of volition, be in equilibrio (equilibrium in uncertainty).
3) Self-determinism (freewill) means one makes choices independent of God and any other influences.

Well, "sin nature" is another name for "amoral desires".
To understand being held accountable/responsible one should look at the definition of "responsible".
Definition of responsible: having an obligation to do something
so ... when God tells you to not sin you are "responsible" for doing so. It doesn't matter that it is impossible for anyone to stop sinning in regards to "responsibility". People wrongly assume that a responsibility must be within a person's control, but this is not the case.

This was very insightful thanks for the response